new ob1/vader duel scene!

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by 800-pound-ewok, Jun 11, 2002.

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  1. strat2k2 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 1
    OK, I just watched ANH again, and I totally agree with obhavekenobi78 now. The fighting just looks so STUPID. They need to do SOMETHING to change this. Mayvbe just a few scenes from farther away with body doubles or something, intercut with the old scenes. Nothing spectacular, with backflips and high jumps or anything, just something that isn't so....pathetic.
  2. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    I'll agree...I want a redo on that scene definetly.
  3. Rikalonius Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2001
    star 3
    This is why you don't do prequals 20 years after. While we are at it, Let's start going through old Bond movies and making them more up to date. We can have double for Sean Connery doing all kinds of crazy stunts.

    pathetic
  4. SPECTOR Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2002
    star 3
    The only thing that bothered me was that we didn't actually see Obi-Wan disappear. Other than that, it should be left alone.
  5. Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 1999
    star 6
    You people need to really watch this scene again. Aside from the lightsaber effects, there is not a damned thingw rong with the fight. Watch their styles, Vader never gets close to touching Obi-Wan, and vice versa, they're defense is perfect. Obi-Wan isn't trying to win this fight, all he's doing is stalling and providing a distraction for Luke and Co. Nothing more, he has no illusions of even trying to win. But Vader is trying to win, he's trying his damnedest to kill Obi-Wan, but he never comes close until OB1 lets him.

    All of the movements are extremely fluid and graceful. Their boides may not be moving fast, but their lightsabers are. They don't need to move fast, because there's no need to expend that much energy. OB1 just moves his lightsaber and blocks, its all in the wrist. There's no need to do a spinning, tripple, back flip, if you can accomplish the same thing with a quick swipe of the balde.

    This duel is the probably the most technically sound of the OT, Luke never really has a clue what he's doing style wise. But in ANH, you have to masters dueling. Yes Dooku and Obi-Wan moved faster and did flips, but they were at the height of their strength, Obi-Wan was not even close. Vader's a machine, I don't think it back flips very well. They've both adjusted their styles to fit their current strengths and weaknesses. If that fight had gone on, and Obi-Wan had been interested in winning, he could have taken Vader down. But he wasn't. The minute Luke, Han and Leia were in the clear to escape, he let Vader kill him.

    There is nothing wrong with this duel.
  6. zeekveerko Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    yes, i agree completely with dark helmet.

    *can't breathe in this thing!*

    there's no need for flipping and running on walls, or anything more than exactly how this fight is. it's definitely perfect as is. i see nothing wrong with the saber effects either. you guys have been watching too many kung fu movies.
  7. 800-pound-ewok Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 1
    heh heh. it totally didn't occur to me, until now, that dark helmet was rick moranis in space balls. it's been awhile since i last saw that flick. i totally forgot about it. heh heh.

    ok. now. let's get down to more serious matters. i know many people are against my request and equally as much are behind my back. i know that the "classics" should never have been "tainted" by our modern tecnology, but lucas seems to have no respect for preserving "dated artifacts." i strongly believe that lucas should finish what he had started. he should finish modifying/fixing his six-part saga to better strengthen the tie/continuum. whoever sarcastically suggested fixing those 007 flicks: that is just so uncalled for. i'm not talking about redoing all ancient and dated movies ever made. all i'm concerned with is lucas's unfinished saga. he admits it himself: he's not done fixing the OT.

    my main concern is this single scene which only lasts for a few measley minutes. i've always felt, even before the PT, that this scene is not consistent with the duels between luke and vader and it also does no justice to ben's credibility as a great and wise old jedi. i won't take those "old and crippled" bull$#!+ excuses. why shouldn't they be able to swing those blades like they were meant to actually do something. they just held those blades in front of them and when they actually moved, it was just ridiculous. i'm a sworsman(fencing, kendo, and arnis) myself and i know a thing or two about efficient use of the weapon. that was not efficient. that was just plain weak. if vader really wanted to off ben(and his true intent was to kill him. it was evident in his final swing to ben's upper bod), those pathetic movements were not the way to go.

    about the whole jumping and flipping...please read my past posts. they don't need to be wushu or even world class acrobats. all i want them to do is swing that damn thing with conviction. a little grace and elegance would help too. there was nothing graceful or elegant about that fight. efficient? please! that was about as efficient as not even doing a damn thing at all.

    call me crazy, disturbed, pathetic or what have you. i still believe that a little modification is needed to strengthen the saga. i also believe that it can easily be done without hurting the scene or the saga for that matter...unless lucas ****s it all up, of course.

    thanks for all the constructive imputs from both sides of this debate. don't get me wrong now. i clearly see both side with open eyes and mind. with all that has been presented before me, i still go with fixing this scene. i still want more from those that oppose of modifying this scene. who knows? it is still very possible for me to change my mind.

    i really need to get a life. SW is eatin the livin $#!+ out of me. heh heh. ahh the sweet caress of the dark side.

    cheers!
  8. The_Farce Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 3
    Well, Mr. Overweight Ewok, you say you have studied Kendo, and this is good.

    But, if you have studied Kendo, you would realise that Obi-Wan is maintaining a neutral center throughout most of the duel (except for the spin), which, in a case of impaired movement, is quite efficient when paired with light western-style (non-retaliative) parries and thrusts/jabs.

    From a swordplay standpoint, Obi-Wans defence is actually quite good, especially considering the shuffling advance (and reverse grip) that Vader employs throughout the duel.

    When two Kendo masters fight, you won't see flashy (sloppy) parries and twirls, but rather, efficient, low-movement attacks combined with little to no return strikes linked directly with parries.

    I think that the only thing that is wrong with the duel is the "fizzling-saber" problem, but otherwise, it should be left alone.

    The duel in ROTJ is like a slap in the face to an educated swordsman, BTW.

  9. 800-pound-ewok Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 1
    to the farce...

    touche! ouch. good point. very good indeed.

    i'm fully aware of the rotj duel being a total hack, but i just love the sheer emotion/mood behind it. good one, young grasshopper.

    (gives you a formal salute and steps back)

    you have unusual powers my young jedi, but it is still not enough to convince me yet.

    cheers!
  10. JMaster Luke Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 4
    Well i'm back. Dont have much to say, but that its cool to see that while i was gone some of u DO want the changes.

    And whats with the ppl that think they we want to see vader and obi FLIP and WALK ON THE WALL? u guys need to learn how to read.

    I just want to bring out that just cuz Yoda and Ben are alone now doesn't mean they got weaker. Dooku is 80 and before he fought obi, anakin, and Yoda he didn't go practicing his Sith Skills on other Jedi or else the Sith would of been discovered. So he practiced by himself.
  11. Coligeon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 20, 2002
    star 3
    Dooku left the Jedi Council ten years before the movie. He then joined the Emperor (Sidious) and was TRAINED by him. How do you think he learned that force lightening hmm? Besides, the dark side had been undetected for a long time. The Jedi can't sense it's presence "the dark side clouds everything." Same thing with Maul, he was trained by the Emperor. I don't remember the exact line but he says something like "You've have been trained well, they should be no match for you" or something of that matter. The point is, the dark side has been undetected by the Jedi for quite some time and continues to be throughout the films.
  12. JMaster Luke Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2000
    star 4
    Yeah trained how to use the DARK SIDE. When Dooku left the Jedi Order he was already a Jedi Master. he's already master the lightsaber, but the thing that Sidious had to TEACH him was the Dark Side powers. what would be the reason for Sidious to teach Dooku things he already knows?

    So dooku knows how to use the lightsaber since he was a master Jedi. he didn't forget the skills. Just like Ben Kenobi. He knows how to use the saber in his mind. its there he KNOWS how to fight with a saber. And u can't blame Ben Kenobis slow fight with vader on age cuz both YODA and DOOKU are older then VADER and BEN were in ANH.

    Therefore somethings got to give. There is no reason for ben and vader to move so slow. they have to and must move faster (NOT jumping on walls and flipping. just........MOVE FASTER. Like the Anakin Dooku fight, or Obi Dooku fight. If u pay attention u see that no one does any flips. and its not SUPER fast like maul vs obi. its just right)
  13. Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 1999
    star 6
    There's no need for them to move fast, like I said above, their lightsabers are moving fast enough that they don't have to. This duel is the only one in the saga so far, where both combatants aren't trying to win. Obiu-Wan isn't trying to beat back Vader, so there's no need for him to go full out. All he's doing is stalling, keeping Vader and the Troopers occupied long enough so that the others can escape. If he was trying to win the fight, I'm sure his style would be different, it would be more aggressive, as it is, its purely defensive, that's all he's worried about. He doesn't know how long its going to take, so why expend a lot of energy early if its going to be a long fight? Its not logical, he would be worn out quickly, and Vader would kill him before he was ready.

    Obi-Wan's movements in the duel are gracefull, efficient, and defensive. To have him suddenly become aggressive and attacking, would change the whole purpose and feel of the duel.
  14. 800-pound-ewok Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 1
    dooku and his training with dark powers have nothing to do ben and his lack of swordsmanship. i stated earlier that it doesn't take the force to practice wielding that sabre just to simply keep in top shape. how in the hell is he expected to teach luke how to use that thing if he, himself, seems to lack the skill to use it. he wasn't even holding the handle properly during the duel with vader.

    efficiency has nothing to do with the lack of swordsmanship. that style didn't even remotely resemble the art of kendo. maintaining centers of focus has nothing to do with it either. when they first filmed that scene, the choreographer was simply not up to par with those of today and sir guiness couldn't wield a blade worth $#!+. he's a brilliant actor, but a very poor stick swinger. this can simply be remedied without causing any damage.

    opposers! please keep coming with more reasons for not fixing this scene. i'd really love to hear more. i won't be satisfied until i find reasons that are sound enough to change my thoughts/ideas on this matter.

    cheers!
  15. The_Farce Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 3
    Actually, Obi-Wan and Vader are assuming Chudan throughout most the duel, so it very much resembles Kendo, and highly advanced Kendo at that.

    Are you sure that you've studied it, or have you been exposed to the "Americanized" version of Kendo.

    I find most of the "masters" over here to be quite amusing. Older masters from Japan rarely leave Chudan-no-Kamae, and neither do Vader and Kenobi.

    Vader uses Tsuki a few times in the duel, much like you would expect a Master to, and, like a true master, Obi-Wan parries without the use of Tsuriagi-Do.

    So, I see nothing wrong with the fight, from a "two Masters dueling" standpoint. No flashiness is to be expected, because the slightest slip-up would result in the opponent immedeatly closing the gap and striking a fatal blow, hence the ommision of striking parries.
  16. Kun2112 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2002
    star 3
    I see the duel as measured and well thought out. after seeing TPM, i thought much as you did Ewok, but after watching ANH again i saw the beauty of that scene.

    plus, Sir Alec is no longer with us, so i think it would be a great dis-service to his memory to replace him with a stand-in or CGI.
  17. JBFett Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2002
    star 4
    the sabers need good fixing.....and it would be great to see a shot further back so you can see the two fighting...in addition to that the sound effects need to be fixed...they seem flat in comparison to the other movies.

    And I do agree....the ROTJ fight should be attempted to be done differently.
  18. Coligeon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 20, 2002
    star 3
    You want to redo the RoTJ fight too? Sheesh. What is wrong with that one? It's pretty short anyway, so I don't see how it could to too "messed" up.
  19. 800-pound-ewok Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 1
    i'm fully aware of the methods chudan-no-kamae, tsuki, and tsuriagi-do and how they apply to the art of kendo. but i have also stated that this has nothing to do with the lack of swordsmanship in this scene. the failures that i see here are due to the fact that the choreographer at the time was not up to par with those of today's standards and that sir guiness(god rest his soul) wasn't a very good swinger of the stick. he wasn't even holding the thing properly. whether they were using a form of kendo, fencing, or medievil hacking, the fight was just poorly choreographed. this can be easily remedied without causing any damage and without bastardizing sir guiness's brilliant acting. i don't want flashy. i want REAL efficiency, grace, and elegance.

    i really need to get a life. this SW $#!+ is really eatin me up. heh heh. but i love it.

    cheers!
  20. The_Farce Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2002
    star 3
    Hey, it's all good man.

    I realize that Sir Alec probably had no experience with a blade; likewise with Prowse. So, I find it amusing that they stumbled into using established Kendo techniques (except for Prowse's reverse grip, ugh).

    Their strikes don't have a lot of conviction so I can sort of understand how someone (especially a swordsman) would want to see it spiced up a little, but the fact that they actually kinda look what they're doing makes it passable, for me.

    But, if you need an "inter-movie" resolution to the problem, just look at the way Anakin and Obi-Wan have fought so far in the PT.

    Sloppy, wide stances, swinging the sword like a damn bat, useless twirls, etc...

    It's obvious they don't have any idea what they're really doing.

    Seeing Ray Park display his Wushu mastery was a treat, though.

    Which brings me to something slightly off-topic, but who else is pissed that Lucas edited out the majority of Chris Lee's fencing in AOTC and replaced with some cgi-head-pasted actor?

    I really wanted to see Lee display his skill, and there are certain edit breaks where you can see him in one handed, balanced stances, and then it cuts back to Mr. CGI.

    Lee has said in interviews that he did everything in the scene except for the flip, but that was a few weeks before the movie came out

    I wonder if that scene that Rick Mcallum was talking about reshoting a week before the final print was the final duel?

    I have a feeling that George thought that the fencing didn't look "exciting" enough, and thought he had to replace it...
  21. obhavekenobi78 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 20, 2002
    star 5
    Personally, I don't know anything about Kendo. Truthfully, if you look at all of the duals in the films, the ANH dual is only one that does not fit. All of the Anakin/Vader duals fully display his reliance on power EXCEPT the ANH dual.

    They BOTH look weak and the dual is out of place. I can live with it, but I would not be opposed to having stand-ins do some wide shots showing some saber dualing that would give us some continuity with the other films. All of the close-up shots and dialogue should be preserved, uncut.
  22. Jad12345678 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2002
    star 1
    NO NO NO NO NO KEEP IT LIKE IT IS NO CHANGES EXCEPT MAYBE FILL IN THE LIGHTSABRES. IT IS SLOW BIG DEAL WHAT WASTE YOUR ENERGY ON THREE MOVES?? THEN GET TIRED IN A LONG FIGHT WHICH COULD HAVE HAPPENED
  23. zeekveerko Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 30, 2002
    star 5
    practically speaking, there is no way to "fix" the duel of the masters without making it look greedo-esque (and i mean greedo shoots first)
    you can't NOT notice cgi super-imposed into a 70's movie.
    i think the farce speaks wisely, though i don't know half the terms he uses.
    this fight is well-choreographed, and nobody ever had any gripes about it until tpm came out.
    i myself was a little disappointed in the way dooku fought, because it just seemed too flashy for a master.
    i would have loved to have seen the visualization of the script in action, where when fighting anakin he stands and parries, and only makes the surgical strikes necessary to win the battle. this is sword fighting. anakin's early style illustrates his inexperience, and even in aotc obi's taken his flashiness down a notch. i anticipate more masterful strokes in ep3.

    btw ewok, great thread, and i too spend entirely too much time and money in ways that relate to star wars.

    those who want changes please explain (especially jmaster luke and ewok) so that we have a better idea of what you mean. we're just joking around about the running on the walls thing. it's just silliness.
  24. 800-pound-ewok Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 1
    to the farce...

    "...swingin the sword like a damn bat..." i was munchin on a rice krispy treat and choked on it because i found it so damn funny. heh heh.

    man, i really hope that when the aotc dvd comes out, all of lee's parts will be in it. i am very convined that his performance with mcgreggor was not all him(stunt double with lee's face on him), but i also know that his performance with the cgi yoda was all him. what made me mad was that they cut the parts when lee displays his highly efficient fencing technique against mcgreggor and hayden. they filmed it, but left it on the cutting room floor. totally pissed me off man! if you're a lee fan, watch "the wicker man." i guarantee you will not be disappointed.

    you, along with zeekveerko(i think that's how it's spelled), made some very good points on those last posts. i realize the massive damage that can possibly be made if lucas decides to modify this scene and totally ****s it all up. though, there is a very good chance that he'll come through for us. he totally surprised me with that whole crouching tiger, hidden yoda thing. so, i'm pretty confident that he knows what he's doing.

    if he decides not to tamper with this scene, the least he could do is fix those damn lightsabres. one should be blue and the other should be red! i wonder why he left this mess out in the first place.

    zeek and farce! you've been very formidable opponents. it is my honor to step back with a formal salute.

    cheers!
  25. CalaisKenobi Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2002
    star 4
    "I think it will look slightly out of sync when the films arre watched in 1-6 order, with and even older man in AOTC able to fight Yoda (who is the oldest AND fastest of anyone we've seen so far)." (sic)


    Yoda and Mace are talking in AOTC about the force being diminished. If it has diminished from just the small amount of power Dooku and Sidious have, how far would it be diminshed come ANH? Wouldn't Obi-Wan basically be relying on his physical skills and only a bit of Force if the power of the Dark Side diminishes his connection to the force? And therefore, why would Vader (who would probably still have his connection) want to escalate the fight by going fast or jumping around, when he can instead draw it out and torment his old master with Cat and Mouse saber fighting? ANH's saber scene is classic, and it fits continuity, I see no need to change it (although I wouldn't mind seeing more Star Wars movies set after ROTJ or before TPM (anything for more Star Wars :) ))
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