Lit New, Powerful Force Users

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Silas Nightstalker, Mar 21, 2013.

  1. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    @ Unbowed.Unbent.Unbroken

    Your argument conflates style with substance. Handwaving EU grandiosity and aggrandizement as permissible because of the need to "add some gravitas, to make us care about the story" suggests that stories are inherently better when they're BIGGER and FLASHIER. Plenty of works, the prequels among them, stand testament to how that is simply not the case. EU writers can "add gravitas" and "make us care about the story" by creating interesting characters, compelling settings, and weaving them together in an appealing story. Darth Nihilus doesn't have to eat planets to threaten the Jedi; Abeloth, for all her ostensible menace, was a mediocre villain at best. Thrawn, widely considered to be the best of the EU's Big Bads, is about as threatening to our heroes as Threepio in single combat.

    And yes, thematically, the movies are reduced if and when we learn that the Jedi order has been purged before half a dozen times or that blowing up planets was nothing new. Obi-Wan doesn't say "for over a thousand generations, the Jedi Knights were the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic before that one Sith dude came along and pretty much wiped us out but then we recovered and then it kinda happened again -- Coruscant was sacked by the Sith, by the way -- ad infinitum and we just kinda limped along until the Empire entered the picture, but it's really nothing special since it happened a zillion times before." The firepower of the Death Star was clearly meant to be unprecedented given the skepticism surrounding it, to say nothing of the Empire's absolute confidence of its invincibility. And, analogous to the real world, technology and general knowledge tends to increase with time, making superiority of the Sith and their empires in times past... unlikely. Likewise, Yoda says that "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny"...then we discover that high profile figures change their Force allegiance more easily than switching party registration.

    The EU was created from the films. It should follow what we learned from the films with religious deference. The films are more successful and more important. Instead, the EU often acts like a petulant upstart, devastated by the fact that nothing it has to offer will ever achieve the same sort of cultural significance as its progenitor.
    Darth_Pevra and Arawn_Fenn like this.
  2. Darth_Xeres Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2010
    star 2
    One of my greatest hopes for the ST is that one of its main characters will be a female Jedi as powerful in the Force, or nearly so, as the characters mentioned in the OP - who are all males. I don't care if that female Jedi is named Jaina Solo or is the daughter of Luke Skywalker. There are many female fans of Star Wars, and I recall reading somewhere that they made up fully half of the fandom. Isn't it about time they saw in the movies a character of their gender who could potentially go up with lightsaber in hand against the characters of the OP and at least hold her own?
  3. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    Lol i don't think so
  4. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Starkiller is pretty damn powerful for a regular non prophecy having force user. Even though I haven't finished reading the FOTJ series, a Sith Lord using Force drain doesn't make Krayt on par with Luke strength wise . Krayt just has several decades more experience than Luke and was trained by the OJO and trained by one of the original Sith Lords.
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  5. Chewbacca89 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2012
    star 5
    Do you ever have anything positive to say?
  6. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    How is that negative?
  7. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Kar Vastor is pretty powerful as well. Windu mentioned him having Yoda or Skywalker level strength.
  8. Silas Nightstalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    I would love to see more of Vastor. I loved that he was featured in Shadows of Mindor, but I want to see him again.
  9. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Same here, or at least give him an heir or two to continue the line of Ghosh Windu. Let them have the power, but with humanity to speak whenever they have something to say.
    Last edited by rumsmuggler, Mar 27, 2013
  10. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 5
    STARKILLER should have never been added to canon. NO video game character should be in canon, because there abilities are dependent somewhat on the player. Sarkiller is a joke. and the fact that Reven defeated Nihlilus tells me all he could do was feed on force users. Luke would defeat him no problem. Luke by GEORGE LUCAS's definition is the full potential of Anakin Skywalker and the most powerful force user ever. Lucas said that and it is gospel. deal with it. No other force user could defeat abeloth as many times as Luke had. No way.Krayt never killed Abeloth, and alone would have been easily decimated by her. Luke might not be able to kill her true essence either. But i do not count Sekot, or Abeloth or the so called Father and son force Gods as "force users" in this context ayway. I am basically saying that Luke is more powerful than any sith or jedi right now. ever. Obviously in the movies he was not that strong, but he has become that strong.
  11. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    In that case, following your logic, Kyle Katarn, Revan, Jaden Korr and etcetera would be non canon. Video games and their characters have always been canon , especially when they also have novels, comics, etc involving them.
    Last edited by rumsmuggler, Mar 27, 2013
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  12. TychoCorde Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2012
    star 1
    Just interjecting into the whole Luke/Krayt dialogue, Luke was also at the point of exhaustion when he faced Abeloth, both physically and mentally. Don't forget they were fighting Sith in the bowels of the Jedi Temple for days. So this could contribute to Krayt seeming more powerful.

    On the issue of Krayt's power level I think he is a pretty powerful Sith Lord, his Sith Mastery could be on par with Luke's Jedi Mastery. However when comparing them its like apples to oranges.

    Another candidate for powerful force-user is Jacen... until they utterly destroyed his character. I mean look at how he destroyed Onimi that is still one of the coolest scenes in the series.
    Last edited by TychoCorde, Mar 27, 2013
  13. FatSmel Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 2012
    star 3
    Exactly
    Comparing force power between media is pointless.
    Luke/Anakin/Palpatine are the most powerful. Deal with it.

    His point was that their abilites are so often warped in video-game format so that those actions should not be considered canon, even if the characters still are
    I tend to agree with the stupidity of video game power levels, and if you are going to compare Starkiller in TFU to Luke Skywalker in ROTJ . . . that is just moronic
    MasterSkywalker86 likes this.
  14. Silas Nightstalker Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2012
    star 2
    Some video game characters are easily adapted into the novels. I would consider the games to be a separate universe, but that's just me. Starkiller isn't mentioned in the novels, other than the novelization of TFU. At least, not that I've read. He has no interaction with any other current characters, nobody has any recollection of him, so it works. Kyle and Jaden work perfectly because they aren't supposed to be some kind of supreme Force user. They're great supporting characters that get to do their own thing every once in a while. Revan works because it was so long ago, and it isn't crazy to think that there could be other super powerful Force users, provided that it's every few thousand years or so.
  15. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    I wish they would tone down force power so that non-force users become relevant again as this is imo a huuuuuge problem. A very well trained and very well equipped non-force user should be able to go toe to toe with any Sith Lord/Jedi Master because as it is now only force users seem relevant. It's Jedi versus Sith all the time because all other beings in this huge galaxy are simply too weak to even have a chance to compete with them.
    kataja likes this.
  16. kataja Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 4, 2007
    star 4
    I have to agree. Reason? Because Lucas said so. We can't take any described battle as fact since they're written to be exciting - and if they weren't it would suck too. That's the lot when dealing with a fictional universe with multiple authors but One Story Teller above them all.
  17. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    :confused:
  18. Something_Exile Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2012
    Why does Luke have to be all-powerful? I mean I get that at this point he should be the most powerful Jedi in the Galaxy, easily, but I thought that what attracted us to the character was him, not his power. His determination, bravery and heroism are what made Luke popular, yet now it's all about how powerful he is, which seems to defeat the point of the character.

    By making him so powerful, above and beyond everyone else, it ruins a story. Now there has to be a reason why he can't just go and beat the villain himself, because if he can't do it then no one else can. If he can do it, then he has to or else why is someone else doing it. It's really ruined the point of a story, to have a hero overcome a villain, and has ruined the character. Luke should still be at the top of the order, as he deserves, but his power should come from his wisdom and bravery, not from "most powerful Jedi evar!". Having him able to defeat every foe is insane from a story-telling standpoint and having more characters on par with him, just in different ways, would go a long way.

    From the villains mentioned above, surely Nihilus was more powerful than Luke in some ways, but that doesn't ruin Luke. His character shouldn't be determined by power levels, especially when the context is different. Instead of levels of power, the context of the what their power is matters. Nihilus was defeated by the Exile not by being more powerful, but by exploiting his weaknesses. Nihilus was just a primal force of hunger, which could very well overwhelm Luke if they had ever fought, but then Luke would have been forced to find a way to overcome this different type of force, not by being stronger, but smarter, the same way in which he overcame the Emperor by using his father's love, not by outfighting him. That makes a better hero than having him determined by his Force level.

    At this point, surely Krayt should be at least on a similar level. He's a powerful Jedi Knight turned Sith Lord who's been alive and training for decades. By having him unable to be more powerful than Luke just based on Luke needing to be all-powerful, it's a detriment to the villain and also unrealistic. Just because Krayt could be more powerful in Luke in ways doesn't mean Luke wouldn't beat him. Luke probably would. But this idea that no one can be more powerful than Luke is detrimental to the stories and the character as it forgets what made him so special in the first place and just reduces it to his power levels.
  19. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7

    I'm well aware of his point, I'm not an idiot that needs everything explained and broken down for me. The game storylines are canon no matter how over the top they can be.
    Last edited by rumsmuggler, Mar 28, 2013
  20. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 5
    my apologies. I meant that the Exile with some help, killed Nihlilus. So to me his abilities did not lend as much to personal combat, but to just feeding on force entities.

    Reven is viewed as more powerful then the exile, yet you could make a case that in-game, the Exile had more prestigious force powers and abilites. I don't have a problem with Katarn and Reven being in canon. I do have a problem with an overly dramatic force user being added to canon by novel form, when the game was meant to feel op. It was meant to just be a temporary video game character in Starkiller. He should never have been written about. It should have stayed seperate as a kind of infinity.
  21. rumsmuggler Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2000
    star 7
    Video game characters are still canon none the less, even if they aren't carried over to other mediums. I guess none of y'all played TFU on maximum difficulty. Starkiller isn't so over the top if you play it that way.. ;)
    Last edited by rumsmuggler, Mar 28, 2013
  22. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    The problem is neither Luke nor Nihilus nor Krayt.

    The problem exists with all the force users. Force sensitivity has basically become the sonic screwdriver in SW EU. It can be used to fix every problem and fix it better than well-trained professionals could. Training in diplomacy doesn't matter if you can read minds. Flying training doesn't matter when you have force reflexes. Medicine training doesn't matter when you can heal with the force. You get the picture. Formerly useful characters like Han Solo are suddenly comparatively weak compared with force users. Whenever a galaxy shattering threat appears, only force users can properly protect the galaxy. Everyone else is doomed to be insignificant.
  23. Something_Exile Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2012
    Though that's not quite to do with the point I was getting at, sadly what you said is definitely the case with the post-NJO EU. Other than KT's Mandalorians, there seem to be no non-Force users capable of equaling the Jedi and Sith, which is horrible shame since there are so many amazing non-Force using characters in the franchise. That's one thing I love about the whole KotoR and TOR era; there are regular people who are not just capable of equaling Force-users, but are good at it. Figures like the Emperor and Revan aside, we have the non-Force using classes in TOR who are completely capable of taking down Jedi and Sith, as well as doing many things better than them, and then in KotoR2 we have characters like Atton and HK-47 who explain their methods and successes. That era, while having more Force-users in it, is definitely more balanced.

    The way I try to justify it, is that during the Old Republic, there were so many Jedi and Sith around that people had to learn how to fight them. By Luke's time, the Jedi were gone and the only two Sith were insanely strong, so the galaxy as a whole forgot how to face them. Even by the FotJ era, the Jedi Order is still small enough, especially after the Yuuzhan Vong, that despite the members of these orders being very powerful, it's still taking time for the citizens to learn how to defeat Force-users again. It's strange to be honest, and a shame that the post-NJO writers have gone this way with their Force-sensitives, but things seem a bit better by Legacy so maybe IU things will balance out again once the galaxy grows accustomed to Jedi again.
    JediMatteus likes this.
  24. JediMatteus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2008
    star 5
    yeah i was hoping that maybe someone like Dyon Stadd could be a non-force using hero. He seemed well set up to be the next Han Solo or something, and instead was killed off. We do need more non force users like Han and Chewie in this universe, i agree. Now Jag is a pretty nice regular guy that can do alot. he was a breath of fresh air in the njo series. You could make a case that Jag was a better pilot then Jaina or Kyp. Up there with Han.
  25. Sable_Hart Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2009
    star 4
    @Darth_Pevra raises a fine point: Too often, novelists and writers try to wank out Force users as nigh-unstoppable juggernauts. As is mostly the case, I believe a middle ground is healthy. Force users should be elite; a farmer with a pitchfork should be nothing but mincemeat to any quasi-trained Jedi or Sith. But a highly trained/cunning non-Force user (the Cad Banes, Jango Fetts, and Pre Vizslas of the galaxy) should be able to threaten a Jedi or Sith one-on-one if they use every weapon at their disposal and fight smart.
    Last edited by Sable_Hart, Mar 28, 2013