New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Thrawn McEwok, Jun 5, 2003.

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  1. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Nov 28, 2000
    star 10
    Yeah, Carida was mostly for stormtroopers, though there were some fleet training things there too.

    Raithal is the best army academy. The "Imperial Naval Academy" is the best for Starfleet.
  2. EvilleJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2004
    star 3
    or be like the rest of us that bludgeoned starfleet battles and its uber insanity of rules into a SW tabletop game :p
  3. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2004
    star 4
    This just occured to me. I'm uncertain if this has ever been discussed here, but what's the fuss over the Katana fleet of Dreadnaughts? The fleet is probably worth 10 Star Destroyers at most, going by their firepower and capabilities. Yet, we have the NR sweating their nights out over it.
  4. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Out of universe, at the time, WEG was the dominant force, and according to them, ISDs were the top of the game, the battleship. Dreadnaughts were mid to heavy cruisers, so 200 of them was a significant threat.

    In universe: 200 dreadnaughts with a reduced crew complement is a significant threat to the strained NR Navy, due to their numbers and mobility. They could spread them out and attack many targets, group them to hit heavy targets, or use them as fleet escorts. Instead of 2 ISDs to hit a target, you could send two groups of 1 ISD and 8 dreadnaughts to hit two different targets.
  5. Pelranius Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2003
    star 5
    The Katana fleet also had a very nice psychological impact.

    It'd be like the 18th Century Royal Navy using the Flying Dutchman or some other ghost ship.
  6. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    May 9, 2000
    star 6
    Wes: um, a Star Destroyer is still the equivalent of a battleship (even if most of 'em are large heavy cruisers by classification); a Mandy-II or an Eye or an Ex is a massive super-battleship...

    I think it's said somewhere that an ImpStar was designed to beat a six-dreadnaught unit; that suggests that the Katana fleet might be worth up to 30 ImpStars - and they're also manned by crack clone crews... basically, if theres' six attached to each ImpStar in Thrawn's core fleet, he's approximately doubled his front-line firepower...

    - The Imperial Ewok
  7. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Nov 15, 2004
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    Yep, his frontline power. Not great in terms of Galactic power, but it provides Thrawn with superiority tactically on a Sector field, which is all he needed - Han pointed out the Empire and NR were now matched equally.

    NR 3/4 of Galaxy = Empire 1/4 of Galaxy.....not counting Deep Core assumedly.

    And out of curiousity, any indications of what happened to the 400 ISD fleet at Tarkin's Fang near Ebaq? And the Cloning project there?

    Assumedly that's where Isard and Pestage had a clone....funny Pestages clone wasn't Force Sensitive.
  8. FTeik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2000
    star 4
    I know, who said this. A certain ThrawnMcEwok, who is not an official source.[face_shame_on_you].

    I'm not aware of any quote, that states that it takes six Dreadnought-Class Cruisers (original, modified?) to fight an ISD.

    So why is the Katana-fleet so important? For this you have to look at with what the two fractions have to operate:

    On one side we have a fraction of the empire located in the outer rim and only having ISDs as its biggest ships on the side you have a government-turned guerilla-movement, whose sole source for large warships is Mon Calamari. Aside from the MC80 the largest warships used by the NR would be Assault-frigates, which are based on the Dreadnought-hull and MC40-frigates. For the empire to get suddenly twohundred of equivalent ships without the need for a shipyard would be a large boost at that point of time.
  9. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2004
    star 4
    Well, technically, even by the fastest Kamino standards, it'd take a long time for them to crew those Dreadnought class frigates. Each one needs a crew of 5000 at least I recall. Not to mention, a lot of refiting as most of the ships appear to be in a bad shape after 30+ years of lack of maintenance.
  10. Pelranius Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2003
    star 5
    This is the Galactic Empire (all right, one quarter of the Galactic Empire), which should be able to whistle up less than a million crewers for some old picket cruisers (the ghost ship psychological effect is not to be underestimated)

    Besides, Katanas can free up sector patrol Star Destroyers (to patrol a sector, the Dreadnaughts don't necessarily need to have to match the ISD's combat capability) for frontline duty.
  11. IceHawk-181 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2004
    star 4
    The idea that six Dreadnoughts equal a single Imperator comes from Dark Force Rising. Garm Bel Iblis refitted six Dreadnoughts with Ion Cannons and was able to basically subjugate an Imperator using that firepower.
    There is absolutely no mention whatsoever that those six dreadnoughts could stand toe to toe with an Imperator in a battle. Iblis needed to refit his ships just so they could hold an Imperator back, let alone outright destroy one.

    Rendil Dreadnoughts are only armed with some 10 Capital-scale Turbolasers, likely the medium cannon variants found on the old Acclamator vessels. That is by no means a match for a vessel with 12 Heavy Cannons or the 64 Cannons found on the Imperator-II design.

    The strength of the Katana Fleet, as mentioned, is the ability of Thrawn to suddenly supplement his forces with 200 medium capital ships crewed by veteran clone crews. Those vessels immediately expand Thrawn?s offensive capabilities and allow him to free up Imperators patrolling Imperial space.

    While a Dreadnought may be no match for a Star Destroyer, how many worlds under Imperial subjugation can field anything more powerful than a few refitted corvettes?

  12. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    star 6
    By the time of the Battle of Bilbringi the New Republic fleet barely held a superiority in firepower and ships over the reunited Imperial forces under Thrawn. Here is a quote to back up this statement:

    Star Wars: The Last Command, pg. 318 (paperback)

    "Officers of the New Republic," Ackbar greeted them gravely, his large Mon Calamarian eyes rotating to take in the entire war room. "None of you needs to be reminded that in the past few weeks our war against the remnants of the Empire has changed from what was once called a mopping up exercise to a battle for our very survival. For the moment, the the advantage of resources and personnel is still ours, but even as we speak that advantage is in danger of slipping away."

    (Emphasis mine)

    Those 200 Katana Dreadnaughts and the fact that forty major capital ships of the fleet were damaged severely at Sluis Van were amongst the major factors that made the battle against Thrawn so close and dangerous.

    --Adm. Nick
  13. AdmiralWesJanson Force Ghost

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    May 23, 2005
    star 5
    Katana Fleet dreadnaughts require a crew of 2000 a piece, down from the 16,000 of a standard dreadnaught. An ISD carries a crew of roughtly 37,000-38,000, or about 17 Katana Fleet ships. Crew wise, the Katana has more versatility per person than an ISD.

    ISDs are certainly multi-purpose warships, but they are rarely used in any sort of battleship role in the movies. They undertake duties more suited to frigates, destroyers, and cruisers than anything else.
  14. Anguirus Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 27, 2005
    star 2
    It was only a battleship considering the state of Thrawn's emaciated forces. Thrawn was a genius at working with very little, but I can't help but imagine the Emperor sitting in the Deep Core laughing his wrinkled clone ass off with his disgusting huge fleet at Thrawn and the NR.
  15. EvilleJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2004
    star 3
    regardless of the dreads combat ability you still have to think about planning against that force projection flexibility. If the republic is going to respond to a threat they don't want to come in undergunned, so they send overwhelming force or none at all (ie retreat and dig in at important worlds) You don't know if Thrawn is dropping 5 dreads to harass a shipping lane or a backwater planet and every so often slips an ISD and interdictor in there. The implications of having to accurately respond and plan for contingencies like these becomes nearly impossible when you have to hold onto defensible positions. The flexibility offered by the sudden influx of decently rugged and armed ships certianly has an immobilizing effect on the republic way in excess of its actual threat in damage/second.
  16. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2004
    star 4
    The only use i could think of for those Dreads is convoy sinking. If they plan to use it as a combat element, well, it might work, to some extent. But those Dreads are only useful once the ISDs have brought the enemy ship shields down.
  17. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Yeah, remember Thrawn's multipronged attack at the beginning of TLC? Previously, he had to keep his core groups of ISDs together and support them with a flotilla of smaller ships. With Dreadnaughts, he has the ability to double his punch by sending a flotilla of those ships along with the ISD, which makes each group more flexible.

    The big problem, of course, is that the Dreadnaught makes a poor support vessel: even CW-era analysts noted she was underarmed for her size, slow, and weak. Thrawn is able to overcome this because he has so many of them, and they only need to run on less than a skeleton crew.
  18. Senator_Cilghal Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2003
    star 5
    What are those starfighters accompanyin (attacking?) Outbound Flight on the cover of Outbound Flight book?

    Imperial Shuttle Plans systems:

    Some ARE real stars (Vega, Sol, etc.)

    Some are not (Sigma Iotia, Zeon, Remus)

    The fake stars are actually names of imaginary stars and planets from...


    STAR TREK!

    Aha, so the Untied Federation of Planets was just a puny pre-Republic civilization!
  19. Pelranius Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2003
    star 5
    That's possible, I suppose. But so is the moon being made out of asbestos. [face_whistling]

    There were probably some larger warships left in the mainstream Empire when Thrawn came back (hey, the Reaper, Guardian and Shockwave stayed in warlord hands) but Thrawn didn't really have a need for them (he did well enough without them), so they got cycled off to the EotH (which might have had a serious crisis with one of those "threats".)

    That's just conjecture on my part.
  20. FTeik Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 7, 2000
    star 4
    Hmm, no.

    Of the three ships mentioned only the Reaper would have been available to Thrawn. Guardian's hyperdrive was badly damaged and it was hidden in an outer rim-system, we don't know, if the Shockwave already existed at that point of time or if Harrsk got her once he renewed his allegiance to the emperor. In every case the ship would have been inside the deep core and with that out of reach of the Grandadmiral. That Ardus Kaine kept the Reaper might be because of politics (Thrawn not wanting to alienate the Grand Moff by taking his biggest toy away) or pragmatism. At the time of TTT having an Exucutor would hardly be insuspicious and as the Warlord Zsinj had to learn the hard way it makes you a very prominent target.
  21. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Nov 15, 2004
    star 7
    I believe the Penastar Alignment sat out Thrawns offensive - while smaller warlords bowed down to him, sent aid and material, the PA was large enough - over an Oversector - that Thrawn couldn't intimidate it.

    But there is the Whelm, somewhere, one assumes. And of course those two ESSDs from Black Fleet - so Thrawn could have had some Star Dreadnaught capability.
  22. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2004
    star 4
    We never quite knew whether the Black Fleet was completed, or what happened to half the fleet that wasn't captured. That the crews knew about Byss suggests that the fleet was withdrawn to Byss.
  23. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    May 28, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, I agree with FTeik. The larger warships in the armada assembled by Grand Admiral Thrawn were Imperial Star Destroyers. At this point we know that they were scare enough in the Empire, so much so that his own personal armada nevered consisted of more than 5 or 6 Star Destroyers. IIRC, only about 9 or 10 ISD's are named in The Thrawn Trilogy, all of those either as part of his personal armada or attached to it.

    Granted the Empire had hundreds of other Star Destroyers in other sectors still under their control, but they were scare enough that assembling a large number of them in one area would of put other areas at great risk.

    Of course, we know that large portions of Imperial fleets were already being assembled in the Deep Core, but that is another issue. The point remains that Thrawn was so strapped for warships that finding a old fleet of 200 Clone Wars era warships or capturing 40 large modern New Republic ones were considered top priority.

    --Adm. Nick
  24. Gladiuus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2003
    star 4
    Another new Empire at Wars starship:

    http://www.empireatwar.net/fall2005/gallery/screenshots/space/august05/exclusive/4.jpg

    I wish they'd just go with already-established material rather than coming up with all this new stuff.

    EDIT: Apparently it's called a Broadside frigate or something similar.

    http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?t=151307

    Ugh.
  25. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2004
    star 4
    The torps are large.... Well, I have no idea why the need for so many classes of the ships.
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