New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Thrawn McEwok, Jun 5, 2003.

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  1. Senator_Cilghal Force Ghost

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    The Broadside looks a bit like the Liberator-class Cruiser from Rebellion. Maybe it is another SoroSuub design.
  2. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

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    It also kinda looks like the Demolisher from the Droids cartoon, though there are obvious differences (hangar bay placement, length of mandibles, etc. ) Its possible they are of related classes, since the Demolisher is a frigate too (at least according to Saxton.)

    [image=http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/tv/demolisher-port.jpg]

    Come to think of it, the Demolisher used heavy torps as part of its armament, too. [face_thinking]
  3. EvilleJedi Jedi Master

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    personally don't mind the design, what I do mind is the name

    heh 'broadside' does not imply forward firing guided missiles in any way :p
  4. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Yeah. And Captain Brandei does say the Imperial Star Destroyer is the largest ship in the Empire. Translation: It's the largest ship
    in the [Thrawn-commanded] Empire. :D

    The EC does say he "marginalized" the Pentastar Alignment, but he probably didn't want to risk conflict with Kaine for an SSD. An SSD would draw undue attention to him, as FTeik noted.
  5. Pelranius Force Ghost

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    Where were all the Tectors in the TTT Empire? (we did see Dominators, at least)

    Thrawn's Star Destroyers probably numbered in the hundreds, but those dozen or so that were actually named in TTT were his personal taskforce. Those senior fleet commanders referenced in TLC probably had command over the rest. (Didn't the Battle of Bilbringi include at least two sector groups from the Empire?)

    Another possibility for the lack of larger warships on the part of the Empire was that Thrawn decided to take the crews of those ships (who were the elite of the Imperial Navy) and reassigned them to Star Destroyers, while mothballing the larger ships to whereever. A larger number of Star Destroyers crewed by veteran personnel would be more effective than a smaller amount of Cruisers+ for Thrawn's purposes.
  6. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Well, he does command the largest bit of the legitimate Empire we've seen since Isard and until Palps Reborn. He'd probably have a lot of ISDs, but would have to tie up a lot in defense or to consolidate his newly-won territories. He was plagued with a chronic shortage of ships, recall, and only tended to use his core ISD strike force for most operations.
  7. Pelranius Force Ghost

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    Certainly true. But the New Republic also seemed to be have ship production problems of their own (though they probably still outnumbered Thrawn by a significant margin)

    I believe most of the fighting in TTT was done off screen. At minimum, Thrawn took 250 sectors away from the NR. In time he had, and considering that he'd have to put up with NRDF sector fleets, a dozen ISDs wouldn't be able to take out (or at least force a withdrawal of) 250 NRDF sector fleets. Hence where the Imperial fleet commanders (ie Rogriss) come into play.

    Though as Thrawn took more and more territory away from the Republic, his strategic forces would shrink as he'd need them to patrol the newly conquered territory, thus leaving less availiable to engage remaining Neo Republican forces.

  8. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    Absolutely. He did control the mainline Empire, and folks like Rogriss et al. were definately doing stuff. His main moves were simply conducted by his core force.

    But do remember that the domino effect did happen a lot--if one sector fell, sometimes the next just went along with it.
  9. Senator_Cilghal Force Ghost

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    During the Hunt for Zsinj, after Isard's death, whom controlled the Imperial Remnant that helped the NEw Republic hunt Zsinj? Whom did Rogriss serve? Thrawn? Whom did the NR THINK Rogriss served, since Thrawn wasn't yet known to them?
  10. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    According to the Dark Empire Sourcebook, Ars Dangor and his Imperial Ruling Council were in control of the Galactic Empire after Isard lost her Stewardship. They were the bugaboos that were plaguing Grand Vizier Pestage, and they were the same ones that plopped Thrawn in power as a hopeful figurehead. Then they're the same ones who journied to Imperial Center after its recapture to try and elect a new Emperor from among their ranks, until that all got messed up.
  11. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

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    Judging from the colossal mess on Coruscant, I say they messed up pretty well.

    But in that case, EC did say after Thrawn's fall, the NR made an aggressive push to retake back everything. Where did Thrawn's fleet go? The Deep Core? Awaiting the push for Coruscant?
  12. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    FTeik: I know, who said this. A certain ThrawnMcEwok, who is not an official source. [face_shame_on_you].

    *shrug* I remember reading it somewhere. I could have been misled, I could have misinterpreted, or I could misremember. I will concede that much.

    *yawn*

    On to Thrawn's fleet, though?

    Can anyone offer me that canonical proof that Star Destroyers are "small" warships in the general scheme of things, please?

    Or canonical proof that there's a scaling "curve" between ImpStars and Manhattan-sized SSDs?

    Or canonical proof that effective SSD-scale ships were ever numerous enough to play a role except as individual king-pieces in the hands of commanders like Vader and Zsinj?

    Or their reasons for believing that there were off-camera fleets of Really Big Thingys? everywhere except where we (don't) see them?

    As to actual numbers, I believe the RPG stuff says Thrawn halved the standard sector fleet battlegroup from 24 ImpStars to twelve. That could free up several thousand of them, and I seem to remember hte battle plane being described in TLC as extending across the Galaxy.

    The WEG stuff tells us that his "armada" has six ImpStars - compare Death Squadron, a canonical unit playing a similar role for an earlier Supreme Commander. We see them used at Sluis Van and Ukio ? but he obviously has more than this handfull of ships; we simply don?t know how many.

    Perhaps we Can think of them as panzers rather than battleships, and see if that helps conceptualize...?

    Jello: doesn't one of the sourcebooks say the Moff Council appointed Thrawn as Supreme Commander, though? I could be wrong (again? :p)... where's Joruus when you need him?

    F_N: Pellaeon withdraws with the fleet to the edge of the Unknown Regions: "The Chimaera will only have one master"...

    - The Imperial Ewok
  13. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    There is a neat little story at the end of The Last Command sourcebook, IIRC. I think Pellaeon took Thrawn's personal armada and fled to the edge of the known galaxy, expecting the New Republic to find him and finish him off.

    Then there was a signal from Byss...

    I do not have my copy of the sourcebook handy, so I cannot confirm the story is there. Nonetheless, it is a neat story.

    --Nick
  14. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

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    Interesting. I didn't know that. Short story?
  15. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    ThrawnMcEwok:

    The Essential Chronology states that the Moff's essentially made Thrawn the Supreme Commander, hoping that by default that would make him easy to control. Obviously, they ended up misjudging their power, as the Imperial military fell in behind Thrawn and viewed him as the supreme ruler of the Empire.

    --Adm. Nick
  16. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Very interesting.

    Well, we know the Empire beat 40% of the NR forces - so assumedly took 40% of the NR sectors.

    On that note, has the number of sectors in the GE been decided? 1000? 5000?
  17. FTeik Force Ghost

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    Typical. "I could, i could, i could", ... BUT NOT "i did" or "i know" or "i read".

    Existance of Executor, Hans comment about many commandships, planetary ion-cannon in TESB, planetary turbolaser in EGWT, Shockwave in Darksaber, Communications-Ship in ROTJ, Mediators and StarDefenders in NJO, larger warships in DarkEmpire, Marvel, the ICSs-books, ITW:eek:T, the TradeFederation-battleships from TPM, ... shall i continue?

    Are you made of teflon of ferrocrete so all of this doens't get through to you or what?

    Three Allegiances escorted the Eclipse to PinnacleMoon in DarkEmpire. Already ships of that size are labeled SSDs so there you go. Aside from that the warfleets around Byss allowed Palpatine to retake the entire galaxy. It is questionable, that he had the advantage in numbers over the NewRepublic, so his ships had to be superior in tonnage and consequently firepower. Four SSDs (five, if we include the EX-F) were part of a single Oversector-Command. Not only that, but part of the missing ships from BlackSwordCommand.

    Once again Byss. Tell me, how much of the imperial infighting have we seen? Almost nothing, nada, zilch.

    I'm not aware of such a quote. Could somebody please provide one? According to the WEG-stuff 24 ImpStars are the MINUMUM for a single sector, courtesy of the ImperialSourcebook.

    Wrong, Thrawn only had five in his core-armada. DeathSquadron is said to be one of the largest fleets assembled so far, so the five ISDs are only the escorts for Executors. TESB-novel makes notice of twenty battleship-commanders and if we look at the marching up of the ImpFleet we get around eight ISDs.

    @Sinrebirth:

    You're confusing conquered territory with destroyed NR-forces.

    According to the EC Thrawn's campaign doubled the imperial territory. Since they started with a quater of the territory they had during their height at the end of TLC the empire should control half the galaxy (plus deep core).
  18. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    FTeik: Typical. "I could, i could, i could", ... BUT NOT "i did" or "i know" or "i read".

    It's a retraction - at least, as much as I'm prepared to give when I have no actual grounds beyond your (laudable) desire for rigour to make me question my memory.

    Existance of Executor, Hans comment about many commandships, planetary ion-cannon in TESB, planetary turbolaser in EGWT, Shockwave in Darksaber, Communications-Ship in ROTJ, Mediators and StarDefenders in NJO, larger warships in DarkEmpire, Marvel, the ICSs-books, ITW:eek:T, the TradeFederation-battleships from TPM, ... shall i continue?

    Are you made of teflon of ferrocrete so all of this doens't get through to you or what?


    One by one:

    Between ESB and RotJ, a number of very large Executor-class command ships are built. A few dozen, even. That doesn't mean they're anything more than prestige king-pieces designed to carry a fleet's worth of firepower on a single hull, or that they're not radically up-scaled, steroidal freaks with serious flaws in their ability to defend against a concentrated point-blank attack. Next?

    The Tyrant was ordered to block the Rebel flight-path, and did so; they weren't expecting a salvo from an ion canon to come up the same vector - under normal circumstances, where Star Destroyer commanders are actually looking out for surface fire, we could assume a game of cat and mouse: I'd imagine that tracking a moving ship at that range with something the size of a planetary-defence battery can be quite slow. And, more importantly, the fact that an ion canon can knock a Star Destroyer like that tells us nothing about how larger ships would fare. We might suppose that they're actually rather more vulnerable - much bigger targets, much less manoeuvrable, and potentially no better protected. Next?

    The Shockwave is a larger Star Destroyer. We see an upscaling of the standard line designs from Dreadnaughts to VicStars and VenStars to ImpStars, to larger designs in DE - which were largely abandonned afterwards: merely the size inflation of standard units, and no indicator that the "larger" designs were ever much above 2km on the keel. Next?

    No evidence that the communications ship is a particularly large design, or a common one, or a front-line warship - the only canon scaling evidence is that she's "one of the larger Destroyers" according to the novel - although I'll allow that the "blob" on the DVD caps looks intriguing; but how was that shot constructed? Unless SWTC has unacknowledged inside sources at ILM, the connections and classifications amde in the Warships of the Empire entry are merely speculative fanfic, which suppressess the novel's "Destroyer" (ie Star Destroyer) designation in order to identify her as a "cruiser"; contrast the much more reasoned and balanced discussion of the bridge tower often claimed to be that of the same ship, here. But all that's an aside. One "larger Destroyer" (larger than what?) carrying specialist equipment does not small ImpStars make. Next?

    Mediators are battlecruisers, which one would expect to be big and fast like those in real life or the Marvel comics, but less able to take a serious pounding than (generally smaller) battleships; Star Defenders are large ships of uncertain size function. If these were ever common or successful designs, they may simply represent the size inflation noted already with Deep Core SDs and ImpStars themselves. The relative importance of Imperial-class Star Destroyers in the NJO can be seen by their use as fleet group command ships. Next?

    The only "large warships" in DE are Eclipse and Eclipse II. Everything else is merely observed distantly in images that are often problematic in scaling terms; the speculative attribution of front-line combat roles to these ships is mere fanon, and Executor Sedriss makes use of a common Star Destroyer. Next?

    Marvel certainl
  19. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    There's no such thing as the Moff Council until the Imperial Remnant. The closest thing to that is the EC saying that Thrawn "deeply impressed the moffs, governors, and other political leaders" which isn't the same thing. It's very vague and emblematic of the NR's shoddy research.

    Curiously, though, Major Hextrophon does a better job. The DESB directly explains that it was Ars Dangor and his Imperial Advisors who placed Thrawn in power. They're the important and powerful figures in the Empire, not the weakling moffs.

    Why moffs would have any importance in the Galactic Empire at that point is beyond me. The important forces at that time were the Imperial Advisors and the remnants of the Central Committee of Grand Moffs. The struggle for power between those two groups, in fact, was what set the backstage for the Imperial Mutiny. The Grand Moffs weren't content to kowtow to the Advisors any longer, so they demanded a say as to who was the Emperor--and then demanded their votes be worth more for every world they held. It was those demands and the subsequent demands of COMPNOR and the armed forces that led to civil war.

    Where would moffs go, when placed next to extremely high-powered Advisors, Grand Moffs, and chiefs of entire Imperial military departments (Navy, Army, and Intel?)? They're unimportant!

    Really, the only explanation is that they're glorifying the moffs who will later rule the Remnant that is allied to them. The New Republic is using propaganda to prop up a regime they approve of and to dismiss one that they did not.
  20. Pelranius Force Ghost

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    Well, the Moffs might have been crucial supporters of the Grand Moffs (Disra springs to mind), who provided the Grand Moffs with an additional power base in addition to helping them consolidate their rule over their Oversectors.
  21. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    Jello: intriguing - I rather like the "politicized rewriting" element of that...

    But, DESB pp. 33-35 says (according to the TimeTales quote/summary) that it was the "Moffs and Grand Moffs" who were claiming a right to sit alongside the Advisors in the Senate building and elect a new head of state. You're right to highlight the role of the Advisors, but I don't think we can downplay or discount the Moffs completely....

    Constitutionally could the Advisors and the Moffs have inherited the authority of the Senate between them? Everyone knows that the Moffs have taken over the powers of senators and sector governors for the "state of emergency", but what role do the Advisors play? Do they perhaps fulfil a role like the Byzantine Consistory, which was nominally the old Senate, but in pratcice consisted of a handful of senior courtiers and commanders appointed by the Emperor...?

    One thing I'm not quite clear about the relationship between the Advisors, Dangor's "Ruling Circle", and the Ruling Council/Interim Ruling Council... the Unofficial Encyclopedia says that the Ruling Circle "were eventually replaced by the Imperial Ruling Council, after every member was assassinated by Ysanne Isard in a single day" - but (a.) Dangor and other "surviving members" are active as of the DE crawl, and it was (b.) the Ruling Council/Tribunal that Isard wiped out...

    Is it possible to see all these as basically different terms for the same body, or at least, factions of it - after Endor, authority defaults to the Ruling Council, ie the Advisors under Pestage's chairmanship; Carvin's faction siezes power in XWRS, until assassinated or sent to Lusankya by Isard, at which point she takes power as a quorum of one. Dangor and his group regroup after her defeat... and by DE, have made a play for power...

    However, the Moffs have also inherited Senatorial authority, and when Dangor tries to convene the Ruling Circle in the Senate building to elect an Emperor and serve as an advisory council, they stake a claim to attendance and voting rights as the sectors' legitimate representatives...

    After DE, we see an interim Council formed by Lumiya, but when this falls apart, the Moffs are left as the sole claimants to constitutionally-legitimate authority... given the comical and unreliable nature of the sources that introduce the Mofference (farting cows on Duro? :p) can we see the "Central Committee of Grand Moffs" as NR propaganda aslo?

    I rather like that, actually...

    - The Imperial Ewok
  22. FTeik Force Ghost

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    You obviously consider holding back because of orders from the emperor instead of firing with all the ship has at the moment the battle begins to be a design-flaw?

    And even if the design was technologically flawed, the empire was already working on better Star Dreadnoughts.

    Aside from that, the Executor would have survived the failure of the bridge-shields and the destruction of the main bridge, if not for its accidental crash into the DeathStar. Those things have secondary bridges as we learn in IronFist. The combination of events, that lead to the destruction of the Executor during the battle of Endor is ridicilous beyond description.

    The fact, that there are only a few dozen of them (ignoring all the other ISD+-ships) if contrasted to several tenthousand destroyers changes nothing, that those ships existed and that they have their own place in the Imperial Order of Battle. There are dozens of destroyers in the US-Navy, but only a single dozen of aircraft-carriers. Does this make the carriers prestige kind-pieces?

    One last thing about prestige: Could you please clearify, WHOM the GalacticEmpire tried to impress with at least 3 Executors in its BlackSwordCommand?

    While Star Destroyers have huge forward acceleration- and deacceleration-abilities, their manouverability into other directions is limited. So no, nothing with cat and mouse-games. And the defenders can make up for slow defence-batteries with more than one cannon. And please, why shouldn't the Tyrant expect a salvo from an ion-cannon, if the rebels have defenses strong enough to repel a bombardement from the entire DeathSquadron, shouldn't you as a careful ISD-captain be prepared, that they also have a heavy artillery-piece?

    What? Potentially no better protected? Can't you come up with something better? Bigger ship means bigger volume. Bigger volume means more space for reactors and fuel-silos, what means more energy for shields and weapons. Bigger ship means also bigger surface, what means more place for weapons-turrets and shieldprojectors.

    First, Dreadnaught-Cruisers are not part of the standard line design. Second, there is no upscaling, if there are Procurator-Class Star Battlecruisers or Mandator-Class Star Dreadnoughts pre-dating Venators, Victories and ISDs. The same is true for the imperial cruisers and battleships from Marvel.

    They weren't abandonned. After DarkEmpire nobody built something larger than an ISD (SuperiorGeneral De
  23. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    To add to McEwoks comment, the Avenger appeared to be somewhat larger than the other SD's at Balmorra.

    And I don't know what the Eclipse being escorted by three larger SD's, probably Allegiance-class, does to your theories. They appear about 3 miles long....
  24. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    FTeik (cont'd! :p): Three Allegiances escorted the Eclipse to PinnacleMoon in DarkEmpire. Already ships of that size are labeled SSDs so there you go.

    You seem to have misunderstood what I meant by "SSD-scale"; perhaps I could have been clearer. Allegiance and her sisters (seen in increasing number until the destruction of Byss - first a lone "SSD"; then a squadron accompanying a ten-mile SSD, then as common Star Destroyers in the gauntlet around Byss) can be accounted for by simple size inflation in standard classes, continuing the progression from VicStars to ImpStars and upwards.

    What I was asking for was any evidence that there were ever more than a relative handful of monsters the size of a Mandy-II or an Executor - or for that matter (in a question I note that you excised from your reply) a range of major classes filling the gap between the common Star Destroyers and the much larger SSDs, rather than some ships in the ~2mi. range (Allegiance, Marvel battlecruisers) and then an exponential leap...

    Aside from that the warfleets around Byss allowed Palpatine to retake the entire galaxy. It is questionable, that he had the advantage in numbers over the NewRepublic, so his ships had to be superior in tonnage and consequently firepower.

    Um... is there any evidence as to what actual contribution Deep Core forces made to retaking territory, as opposed to Thrawn's campaigns and non-DE Imperials building on them? Or any proof that the NR was actively trying to hold territory rather than preserving strategic strength by avoiding battle until they could fight on their own terms?

    We know that the NR withdrawl from Coruscant is part of a prepared plan; we have no evidence for major NR fleet-action defeats; we can question whether, even if the NR had driven back Imperial forces after Bilbringi, they had effectively reimposed control on the territory Thrawn conquered; we definately know that the Empire had made major gains in the Core; we also know that Imperial commanders join forces with Palpatine during DE. We don't need to posit further unseen factors to explain the Imperial ascendancy in DE.

    Four SSDs (five, if we include the EX-F) were part of a single Oversector-Command. Not only that, but part of the missing ships from BlackSwordCommand.

    "Three are Super-class vessels" - BTS, p. 138. I'm not sure where you get your figures from.

    Once again Byss.

    A few unidentified ships seen in orbit? Of uncertain size? And unknown function? Proof, rather than hypothetical extrapolation, please?

    Tell me, how much of the imperial infighting have we seen? Almost nothing, nada, zilch.

    Where observed (Grunger vs. Pitta, Zsinj vs. Rogriss), Executor-class ships are king-pieces and there's not much else above ISD-size. Zsinj, who controls, what, 1/3 of the GFFA, and is a major target for both the Empire and the NR, has precisely one SSD - regarded as a supremely valuable asset.

    I'm not aware of such a quote. Could somebody please provide one? According to the WEG-stuff 24 ImpStars are the MINUMUM for a single sector, courtesy of the ImperialSourcebook.

    I understand it's one of the T3 WEG sourcebooks. I think JoruusCbaoth probably provided the quote earlier in this thread.

    Wrong, Thrawn only had five in his core-armada.

    Oh? I've seen Chimaera, Death's Head, Inexorable, Judicator, Nemesis and Stormhawk all listed as being part of it, so I took it that it was Chimaera plus five; do you have a quote/reference?

    DeathSquadron is said to be one of the largest fleets assembled so far, so the five ISDs are only the escorts for Executors.

    Source(s) and quote(s), please?

    TESB-novel makes notice of twenty battleship-commanders

    In what context, if you don't mind me asking?

    and if we look at the marching up of the ImpFleet we get around eight ISDs.

    Based on SFX shots? Or something else? Either way, what's the hard min
  25. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    ThrawnMcEwok:

    Um... is there any evidence as to what actual contribution Deep Core forces made to retaking territory, as opposed to Thrawn's campaigns and non-DE Imperials building on them? Or any proof that the NR was actively trying to hold territory rather than preserving strategic strength by avoiding battle until they could fight on their own terms?

    We know that the NR withdrawl from Coruscant is part of a prepared plan; we have no evidence for major NR fleet-action defeats; we can question whether, even if the NR had driven back Imperial forces after Bilbringi, they had effectively reimposed control on the territory Thrawn conquered; we definately know that the Empire had made major gains in the Core; we also know that Imperial commanders join forces with Palpatine during DE. We don't need to posit further unseen factors to explain the Imperial ascendancy in DE.


    Excellent point. I have argued myself that Reborn Palpatine's forces never actually defeated any major concentration of New Republic warships. As you said, the evidence implies that it was the plan of the New Republic High Command all along to withdraw its fleets to maintain a strategic advantage. The massive "surrender" of so many New Republic worlds was proably nothing more than a plan to free up huge chunks of the fleet.

    Furthermore, there is ample evidence that Admiral Ackbar is doing the same thing that Mon Mothma ordered him to do the day he took over command of the Rebel fleet- keep it mobile and safe. Freed of the need to defend a large capital, the fleets were allowed to roam safely and wait for the perfect moment to launch a counter-attack.

    --Adm. Nick
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