New Republic Capital Ships - still sorting out the mess... (Fleet Junkies- HO!)

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Thrawn McEwok, Jun 5, 2003.

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  1. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

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    Hmm.. I recall that the Galaxy Gun was poised to target several NR fleets hiding in deep space. Also, Pinnacle Base had a large defence fleet in orbit. You are probably right that the NR decided to play hide and seek, but from the way things were looking, the NR was running out of time. However, it seems from the EC that there was some fighting. Recall that Pellaeon abandoned the Chimera and it fell to NR hands.
  2. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    Nick: :D Yep!

    F_N: pshaw! Mere New Republic propaganda!! :p ;)

    As to the absence of the Chimaera in Darksaber... well, the Lusankya is also missing - General Antilles flagship both before (CE2, I, Jedi), and immediately after (Starfighters of Adumar)... [face_thinking]

    Part of me still itches to take the safety-locks (child-locks) off the integrity of the continuity like that... ;) :D :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
  3. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

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    New Republic propaganda? Pellaeon was commanding a mere VSD after the death of the Reborn Emperor. It was mentioned in Empire's End that the Galaxy Gun was preparing to fire missles at New Republic fleet.
  4. FTeik Force Ghost

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    Do you know what a government is worth, that abandons its citicens and the worlds they live on to the enemy without a fight?

    The NR ceased to exist during DE and after Shadowhand its leaders enjoyed just enough credibility to form a coalition of 400 species (out of 20 million) on eleven-thousand worlds for the next five years.
  5. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

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    Well, they did that when the Vong took Coruscant. Basically, they decided to follow what the Russians did. Retreat and regroup.
  6. FTeik Force Ghost

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    The empire controlling the deep core, the core, the expansion region, the colonies, the inner rim, the mid rim, the outer rim, all the territories out till wild space - i wouldn't call that an orderly retreat.

    Nor would i call the chaos, that followed the battle of Coruscant call a retreat. Hell, the NR and its military broke apart before the battle was even over.

    One thing i forgot in my last post: In BFC the introduction of 5th Fleet is viewed as a major addition to the NRDF. The problem is 5th Fleet doesn't even come close to the size of an ordinary sectorfleet from the times of the empire. Now if twenty star destroyer-sized vessels and their escorts are such a major addition to the entire fleet, said entire fleet can't be to large. It might be enough for a political entinity that controls 11,000 worlds, but not one that controlled at least a third of the entire galaxy after TTT. So what happened to all the ships the NR had during that time?
  7. AdmiralNick22 Fleet Admiral of Literature

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    FTeik:

    You put WAY to much into that old quote about 11,000 worlds from the BFC. That was back int he early days of the EU, when most authors had little idea of how big the galaxy was or how many species there were. It is clear that the New Republic controlled nearly ALL of the known galaxy by the time of the Peace Treaty with the Empire. The BFC takes place only a few years before that. That means one of two things happened:

    1. The quote from the BFC is old and no longer fits what was later established.

    2. The NR expanded at a increble and tremendous rate in just a few years.

    --Adm. Nick
  8. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

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    It's probably a case of over expansion at too fast a rate without sufficient resources to hold the territory.

    Needless to say, the Galactic Economy took quite a battering, and the NR never seemed to achieve the financial autonomy to support those ships. Or, Mon Mothma and Leia were such pacifists that they refused to bolster the fleet size even though they knew it was necessary to do so. Also, it seemed as if the NR was content to leave member worlds supervising their own defences, while releasing parts of the fleet to them. Well, it was plain stupid in my opinion.
  9. Senator_Cilghal Force Ghost

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    EX-F was a SSD? I thought it was a Dreadanught or something.

    So, theoretically, Thrawn answered to Dangor and the ruling Council?

    So the Emeperors/Empresses/Wannabes of the Empire Proper are:

    Palpatine I 19 BBY-4 ABY
    Sate Pestage 4-5
    Ysanne Isard 5-8
    Ars Dangor and Ruling Council/Thrawn 9
    Palpatine I (again) 10-11
    Carnor Jax and Interim Council 11
    Xandel Carivus and Interim Council 11
    Daala 12
    Disra and Council of Moffs 12-19
    Gilaad Pellaeon 19-"present"

    Note that up to VOTF, High Admiral Pellaeon is subordinate to the Moffs, but in the NJO has been promoted to Grand Admiral and seems superior to the Moffs.

    Splinter Groups:
    1) Brakiss--Dark Jedi, led the Second Imperium from the mobile Shadow Academy, seems to have had the allegiance of many Deep Core worlds; capital: Shadow Academy

    2) Adalric Cessius Brandl--High Inquisitor, in as yet unpublished short story that tounded out the Brandl saga, Jackson had Brandl as head of an Outer Rim "Protectorate" which made peace wit the New Republic, capital: Trulalis

    3) Daala--High Admiral, after her return to duty from the Meridian, seems to have controlled the Deep Core worlds

    4) Darcc--Moff, Kashyyyk Sector; Kashyyk liberated from him by New Republic; Avatar Platform, enslaved Wookiees with Trandoshan slavers led by Pekt; capital: Kashyyyk

    5) Delvardus--Superior General, controlled enough resources after the death of clone Emperor to build the Knight Hammer SSD; capital: ?

    6) Dolph "Kueller"--Dark Jedi, to whom Brakiss was at one time subservient, controlled droid manufacturing on Telti secretly, had a small fleet; capital: Almania

    7) Lon Donell--Lieutenant, a pettry warlord with few resources, more of a pirate really; capital: Barpine

    8) Gaen Drommel--Fleet Admiral, controlled portion of Outer Rim with a SSD; capital: ?

    9) Iolan Gendarr--????

    10) Josef Grunger--Grand Admiral, whom seized control of Gargon, proclaimed himself Emperor upon death of Trioculus, then set off to conquer Corellia; capital: Gargon

    11) Harrsk--Supreme Warlord, powerful in Deep Core; after Grand admiral Batch's execution, Batch's fleet joined Harrsk; later relocated to Atrivis Sector and set up power in Outer Rim (which may have included the region later ruled by Pellaeon), building the Shockwave; capital: Spuma

    12) Hethrir--Procurator of Justice, Dark Jedi, ruled various planets scattered throughout the furthest reaches of the Outer Rim, the "Empire Reborn," a secretive figure, more visible were his underlings: Admiral Galak Fyyar and Dark Jedi Desann; capital: Crseih Station; after his death, his resources were apparently controlled by the Disciples of Ragnos, led by Tavion

    13) pseudo-Kadann--false Supreme Prophet of the Dark Side, leader of theocratic Church of the Dark Side, rival of Trioculus and Isard; Peccati Syn a devoted follower; capital: Space Station Scardia

    14) Ardus Kaine--Grand Moff, from the remnants of Oversector Outer formed Pentastar Alignment; known for his underlings Grand InQuestor Jerec and Grand Admiral Grant; swore allegiance to returned clone Emperor and died in Operation Shadow Hand; capital: ?

    15) Delak Krennel--Prince-Admiral of small Ciutric Hegemony, capital: Ciutric

    16) Par Lankin--Moff, Lambda Sector ("south" of Ando); capital: ?

    17) Lumiya--Dark Lady of the Sith, allied with Nagai; controlled a small fleet; later allied with the Tofs; later trained Carnor Jax as apprentice; went into hiding; capital: Kinooine

    18) Palpatine I--the Clone Emperor long maintained a loyal fleet and resources hidden in the Core before his public return; servants included Sate Pestage and Blackhole, and Jerec (double agent also working for Kaine); capital: Byss

    19) Danetta Pitta--Grand Admiral, took over Corellian Sector; torpedo sphere; capital: Corellia

    20) Teradoc--High Admiral, controlled 150 VSDs in Deep Core; briefly swore allegiance to returned Emperor Palpatine; Pellaeon briefly served him as Vice-Admiral; capital: ?

    21) Trioculus--Emperor, backed by Grand Moff Bertroff Hissa and Cent
  10. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    I don't really see any problem with eleven thousand member worlds... presumably most sector capitals and major worlds have joined, and that's the main point...

    Nor, for that matter, do I see any problem with Ackbar's strategy. If you abandon territory to the enemy, it doesn't get slagged as you try to defend it... you actually limit the collateral damage, overextend the other guy, and chose your own battleground...

    Dark Empire was unexpected...

    S_C: I'm not sure Thrawn answers to anyone; a Grand Admiral probably has the power to order anyone in the military about on his own authority on a case-by-case basis (and do I remember something about him having a special "Warlord" title which Vader had also borne, as well?); if so, what the Moff Council (or whoever) would confer with the Supreme Commander post a formal command position, rather than a default one...

    But that's a good list - though it would help if we could work out exactly how much power people like the GoDV villains had... and if we could really be sure of who was at whose throats...

    For instance - anyone got a copy of SWAJ #2 to see what it says about Agressor and Corellia, and how we have to square that with what we're told about Grunger...?

    - The Imperial Ewok
  11. AdmiralWesJanson Chosen One

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    My copy is at home :(

    IIRC, it is a short statement about GA Grunger returning to the Corellian sector with Aggressor and his fleet to bolster the number of ships already there. It's part of a briefing on the status of important core worlds.
  12. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    McEwok:
    But, DESB pp. 33-35 says (according to the TimeTales quote/summary) that it was the "Moffs and Grand Moffs" who were claiming a right to sit alongside the Advisors in the Senate building and elect a new head of state. You're right to highlight the role of the Advisors, but I don't think we can downplay or discount the Moffs completely....


    The grand moffs were jealous that the Advisors were going to make one of themselves the new emperor, so they wanted to be able to vote so that one of them would be emperor. That doesn't mean that they were involved with choosing the Supreme Commander: in fact, they've got no power to do so. The only reason they would be involved in the emperor election is because it would directly matter to them, whereas the Supreme Commander would not.

    Constitutionally speaking, moffs are inferior to Imperial Advisors--the greatest moff could answer to the lowliest advisor. Of course, that's why grand moffs were created: so they could override the politics of the Imperial Advisors and report directly to the Emperor or a nominated proxy, like Vader, Dangor, or Pestage. Dangor's massive depth of political clout probably explains why he was able to still keep most grand moffs to heel, even after the death of the Emperor.

    Constitutionally could the Advisors and the Moffs have inherited the authority of the Senate between them? Everyone knows that the Moffs have taken over the powers of senators and sector governors for the "state of emergency", but what role do the Advisors play? Do they perhaps fulfil a role like the Byzantine Consistory, which was nominally the old Senate, but in pratcice consisted of a handful of senior courtiers and commanders appointed by the Emperor...?


    The Imperial Sourcebook explains that the moffs report to the Imperial Advisors, who are responsible for particular sectors and groups of moffs. They're the ones who appoint and command them. There's a pretty little diagram that I've uploaded before:

    I'm making it a link so my bandwidth doesn't explode. :)

    One thing I'm not quite clear about the relationship between the Advisors, Dangor's "Ruling Circle", and the Ruling Council/Interim Ruling Council...


    Well, while the Galactic Empire was in full strength, Palpatine's top advisors were known as the Imperial Ruling Council. It changed to Emperor's Ruling Circle after Endor, under Dangor's rule. They were the primary opponents of Pestage and as CTD says, it was their orders that led Zsinj to betray his oath and become a warlord. They're also identified in DESB as the group that opposed Pestage: and we can see that some of the "Cabal" has the goofy planetary outfits associated with the Imperial Advisors. The Tribunal that replaced Pestage as ruler of the Empire was led by Carvin and two Advisors, from the looks of their outfits. They were, of course, murdered by Isard when she assumed her role as Stewardess of the Empire.

    The Interim Ruling Council, on the other hand, is merely the group of traitorous fools who arranged for Palpatine I to be assassinated and assumed control of the Empire afterwards. They're groups of various sorts of people, including businessmen and military officers. They're not really liked to either of the former two groups.


    Senator_Cilghal:
    So, theoretically, Thrawn answered to Dangor and the ruling Council?


    Sort of.

    As noted above, the Imperial Advisors command moffs. Moffs command officers of the rank high admiral and below, as assigned to their sector. So indirectly, Advisors have authority over most line units. Grand moffs were created so they could deal with important threats without the political interference of the Advisors.

    High Command controlled the roving fleets of the strategic force and monitored their actions. Grand Admirals were created so they could perf/>
  13. FTeik Force Ghost

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    Nov 7, 2000
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    On the contrary, already ANH (novel and radiodrama) establishs, that the GalacticEmpire controlled ONE MILLION memberworlds and DarkEmpire expands on that by saying, that there are twelve million settled systems.

    There was a reason it was called "GalacticEmpire".;)

    A NewRepublic with only 11,000 worlds however fits well with the small-scale combat we witness in the post-DE-time, the inability of the NR to drive the empire off from SIX conquered worlds during Pellaeons Orinda-campaign (EssentialChronology) or the fact, that they had so much trouble with the Yevethans or their fear of a new imperial campaign from the deep core, done by Daala, who was said to control still "thousands of worlds" (not ten-thousands).

    At the time of HoT the NR controlled probabely 200,000 major worlds at best going by the description of the Senate-hall with thousand seats for senators, of which each represented 50 - 200 worlds.

    @McEwok:

    The problem is not, that the NR abandoned territory to the empire. The problem is they abandoned - if you want to call it abandon - almost everything. Even their own biased historians admit that.

    To compare it to the SovietUnion in WorldWarII:

    "Our brillant leader Stalin decided to force the facist troops of Nazi-Germany to run themself dry in the territory abandoned to them. This morning the first units of the tank-division "DasReich" entered Wladiwostok at the coast of the Pacific Ocean.

    Don't panic, everything is going according to plan." [face_laugh]
  14. Sinrebirth SWC and EUC Forum Moderator

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    Well, lets look at this - 40% of the NR military is trashed by Thrawn. He withdraws, and the Imperial fleets regroup and swiftly attack coreward. The NR resists, as is its nature, but with its fleets rimward, falls, probably losing more ships.

    Even if the fleet scatters and the NR as a bloc disappears, they still have to defeat the Empire again - even though in-fighting and so forth, they fought at least some major battles, as evident in the opening CE II scroll - "The Empire has lost some major battles" - so the NR would have taken casualties to break that Empire, grievous casualties, assumedly, as the NR attacked directly Coreward and won in a few months

    And in answer to how the NR expanded from 11000 systems so quickly, Pellaeon from HoT points out - hundreds of planets who'd been keeping a careful neutrality where rushing to join the NR now, there was no doubt who had won - the NR expanded immensely after or before the New Rebellion, depending when the NR beat the Empire.
  15. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    FTeik: You obviously consider holding back because of orders from the emperor instead of firing with all the ship has at the moment the battle begins to be a design-flaw?

    I presume that they were expected to defend themselves? What the Star Destroyers do is stand off to prevent the Rebel escape, rather than attack outright. They're not just sitting there like turkeys for a shoot.

    And even if the design was technologically flawed, the empire was already working on better Star Dreadnoughts.

    They were? Are you referring to the Eclipse? Proof, please, of her designation? :p

    Aside from that, the Executor would have survived the failure of the bridge-shields and the destruction of the main bridge, if not for its accidental crash into the DeathStar. Those things have secondary bridges as we learn in IronFist. The combination of events, that lead to the destruction of the Executor during the battle of Endor is ridicilous beyond description.

    You'd expect that people on the secondary bridges should have taken control instantly. They didn't, or couldn't. Something went very wrong, beyond simply the loss of command tower shields and one control deck.

    The fact, that there are only a few dozen of them (ignoring all the other ISD+-ships) if contrasted to several tenthousand destroyers changes nothing, that those ships existed and that they have their own place in the Imperial Order of Battle.

    I'm not denying that SSDs exist; what I'm saying is that they're a relatively small group of very, very big Star Destroyers, scaled-up exponentially by a megalomaniac; I'm arguing that the standard "battleship" or "ship of the line" remains the ImpStar, even though it operates in its thousands, and that the really big ships are extreme, expensive, unwieldy and unneccessary - not so much battleships as Maginot Lines. That to me seems a far more rational interpretation of the official evidence...

    If you insist on a scaling-derived size for the Ex, there's no evidence at all for any "bridge" classes between the ~2mi. Star Destroyers, dreadnaughts, battleships and battlecruisers on the one hand (with the ~3mi. Home One representing the top end) and, on the other, the generally >10mi. SSDs and superdreadnaughts (with the unfinished ~7mi. Sovereigns representing the economy class).

    What I find amusing about the SSD redesignation is that the motivation is supposedly to create a "scale-specific" class designation: apart from the fact that the supposed "need" for this is a brain-bug in itself, the term chosen has an even wider cachet than SSD: under WEG, "Star Destroyer" stretched from 900m to 16km, incorporating "SSD" to distinguish megalomaniacal superships at 2km, 8km, 11km and 16km; "dreadnaught" ran from 600m through 900m and 2km up to the 16km-plus Eye of Palpatine...

    A much simpler retconn would have been to explain the solitary reference to Allegiance as a "Super Star Destroyer" as Rebel slang... :p [face_whistling]

    There are dozens of destroyers in the US-Navy, but only a single dozen of aircraft-carriers. Does this make the carriers prestige kind-pieces?

    Um, yes? :p They serve a different role, they normally operate as the centrepieces of fleets, and there's a lot of projection-of-power psychology involved. Real-world destroyers are the primary combat warships, aircraft carriers are designed as symbols of imperial might, statements of America's worldwide hegemony, equipped to carry out long-range strikes in ways that destroyers aren't. Of course, there's a difference between a fighter platform and a super-sized Star Destroyer, but the analogy should help explain what I'm talking about.

    One last thing about prestige: Could you please clearify, WHOM the GalacticEmpire tried to impress with at least 3 Executors in its BlackSwordCommand?

    Black Sword is designed as a strategic reserve; the ability to deploy command ships anywhere in the Galaxy is useful - so I'd suspect that they're designed to impress whoever they're deployed again
  16. AdmiralWesJanson Chosen One

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    Grunger may not be mentioned, but I am nearly positive Aggressor is...
  17. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    No, I know Aggressor is mentioned; I was simply wondering how this connected with the "warlordism" allegations attached to the Grunger vs. Pitta battle... how widely-recognized was HIM Josef I?

    ... though given that Grunger's showdown with Pitta is dated about a year later (is this canon or fan-hypothesis?), I suppose she could have gone to Corellia twice... [face_thinking]

    Then again, she seems to reappear in the X-wing novels... [face_worried] :confused:

    Don't tell me the Big Blue Bastard stole another one?! :eek: :oops: [face_laugh] :p

    - The Imperial Ewok
  18. Pelranius Force Ghost

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    Whatever happened to Carvin, did he die on the Lusankya or something?

    And that Admiral Jeratai from CEII, we never saw him again.

    The Reaper and Lusankya might have been going overhauls in the periods Pellaeon and Wedge were using ISDs (those things would probably require some serious mainteance after a few years of hard campaigning)
  19. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

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    Loor salutes someone a smooth flight back to the Aggressor in Rogue Squadron. The ship's class is unspecified.

    Carvin may have had a further role had the comic series not been cancelled.
  20. Thrawn McEwok Co-Author: Essential Guide to Warfare

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    Pelranius: The Reaper and Lusankya might have been going overhauls in the periods Pellaeon and Wedge were using ISDs (those things would probably require some serious mainteance after a few years of hard campaigning)

    The only problem with that is that I, Jedi overlaps JA3, and SoA comes really close after Darksaber, starting before PoT... :p

    Ex: Loor salutes someone a smooth flight back to the Aggressor in Rogue Squadron. The ship's class is unspecified.

    As I understand it, we know that Loor was supposed to be fetched by the SSD that Isard sent to pick up Derricote, and there's some sort of implication that that was Aggressor... unfortunately, I don't have the book to hand...

    - The Imperial Ewok
  21. Senator_Cilghal Force Ghost

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    Lusankya might have been tied up in Deep Core.
  22. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

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    That's right, McEwok. I forgot to say, "but the arrival of a SSD changed his mind," as Isard tells Loor at the end.
  23. KansasNavy Force Ghost

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    Just one little thing:


    Um, yes? tongue They serve a different role, they normally operate as the centrepieces of fleets, and there's a lot of projection-of-power psychology involved. Real-world destroyers are the primary combat warships, aircraft carriers are designed as symbols of imperial might, statements of America's worldwide hegemony, equipped to carry out long-range strikes in ways that destroyers aren't. Of course, there's a difference between a fighter platform and a super-sized Star Destroyer, but the analogy should help explain what I'm talking about.


    Aircraft Carriers are the backbone of the US Navy, (or the combat wings they carry) not destroyers. Almost all ships nowadays primarily support carriers, since there are few threats at sea. That said, Star Destroyers are more akin to battleships and carriers melded together, than actural US Navy Guided Missile Destroyers. A Strike Cruiser is a more suitable analog.

    I liked the point on these SSDs being Maginot Lines. A smart tactician would subscribe to 3rd generation "maneuver" warfare, although the Clone Wars sees more 2nd Gen WWI-style ground combat.

    I agree with McEwoks theory that ISDs are the primary and centerpiece platform that carries out the Empire's military doctrine, with the larger ships being few and of questionable effectiveness.
  24. Fingolfin_Noldor Jedi Master

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    The purpose of the Star Battleships (hell I hate Dreadnaught as a name) and Star Battlecruisers were to serve as primarily as artillery platforms to hit the enemy fleet from a far. In many of the scenarios we see, these warships normally hit the enemy from a far, like at Calamari against the Yuuzhan Vong. Nevertheless, they have been known to get involved in a fist fight, and the volume of fire it delivers might result in such a huge power drain that the ship's supplies could be drained within a huge battle. The supply lines for these ships must no doubt be able to support such a monstrous vessel.

    Pretty much like WWII where ships in the Hunt for Bismarck were actually burning most of their fuel in the chase and they nearly had to return to port and give up the chase if they couldn't find the Bismarck quickly enough.
  25. GrandAdmiralJello Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque

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    I might have something to say about this ISD thing, once I get it confirmed. :)


    let me get this straight; is there, or is there not, a source saying that a council of Moffs appointed Thrawn? Sorry, I'm still confused on that one...


    There isn't. There's just a vague reference in the EC, whereas DESB is pretty clear that Dangor and the ERC appointed him.

    Also, one wonders where the Advisors had been since the end of XWRS: the one we know of, Carvin, was in Lusankya...


    Well, all indications show that Isard only dealt with the Tribunal--killing two and imprisoning Carvin. The rest seem to have approved of her position as Stewardess of the Empire and left her alone. They're definately the group that has been identified to have succeeded her, though, and they're plotting and managing past Thrawn and into DE--and that's where they're last mentioned. It's presumed that they either died on Byss, or went into hiding./>
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