New Star Wars RPG Core Rulebook Coming!

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by Geoff1138, Jun 30, 2006.

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  1. TaintedJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 4
    My friend did comment on this, regarding how your skills seem to all advance whether you "invest in them" or not. My thought is that, watching the movies, most characters tend to have a general set of well rounded skills (just like most adults can drive in real life, most star wars heroes can pilot somewhat). Is this less realistic by having everyone's trained skills advanced automatically as they level? Sure, but it seems to sell the cinematic qualities better too. It also avoids the awkward "does anyone have (skill x)" moments.

    I haven't seen how they intend to address this yet. The thing I kept reading was that characters like Han Solo, Lando, etc are just as effective as Jedi but in different ways. Now, that's yet to be seen in play but I can see that to a degree. And, sadly, there's something to be said about play balance - and for some casual (or less experienced) players this might be a nicer, easier fix. Will it please everyone? I doubt it. But I've yet to actually play with the new rules so I can only speculate so much. On that note, yes, Jedi have super amazing cosmic powers. But just like some people might get tired of having their jedi 'nerfed'... others get tired that every time they drop a hint of force power, Sith and/or the Empire drop on them like Agent Smith in the Matrix (which tends to be the 'cost' for being better then most other PC classes).

    I was going to say more, but I forgot.

    -TJ
  2. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    star 6
    Nope. You have the choice of either going further up a tree, or branching out into different trees. Some talents do have certain prereqs., either in the form of feats, trained skills, trained Force powers, or other talents.

    For example, I re-created the PC Jedis' Master, and he has a couple of Lightsaber Combat talents, a Sense talent, and a Jedi Sentinel talent. OTOH, one of the Jedi PC's is a Lightsaber Combat monkey.
    Part of that is "flavor text." For example, it could be that it's a single shooter using either the autofire option, or the Rapid Shot or Burst Fire feats. In game mechanics, the shooter is making a single attack roll, but in "flavor text," he's coloring the air red with blaster fire.

    What the Jedi is doing in terms of "game mechanics" is making a single opposed roll vs. the single attack roll. In "flavor text," the Jedi is deflecting the incoming hail of blaster fire with a flurry of lightsaber swings.

    If we're talking about multiple shooters vs. a single Jedi, it could be that some of those shooters are using the "aid another" feature, sacrificing their chances to hit in order to box the Jedi in for that lucky shot. Or it could be that the shooters are flat-out missing on their attack rolls. In either case, it's "flavor text" that what's causing the shots to not connect isn't the shooters' poor marksmanship, but the Jedi's lightsaber prowess.
    IIRC, it's a cumulative -5 on every Use the Force checks as an opposed roll vs. attacks that you wish to try to actively deflect. If you're feeling cocky, like if you're fighting a bunch of mooks with low attack bonuses, you may want to just rely on your Reflex Defense (and any Reflex Defense-boosting feats and/or lightsaber talents) to carry the day. If you're up against the likes of Jango Fett, you might want to try to Deflect.

    Similarly, an attack that hits could be described via "flavor text" as being blocked by the 'saber, but knocking it out of position. Think of Jango vs. Coleman Trebor. I'd say that every attack actually "hit," but the first shot or two knocked Trebor's lightsaber out of position, allowing the "killshot" to get through.

    My two decicreds, at least.
  3. TaintedJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 4
    Thanks for helping elaborate that which I couldn't, Merkurian.

    -TJ
  4. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Right, but particularly with Yoda/Obi-Wan breaking into the Jedi Temple on Coruscant and Luke vs. all of Jabba's thugs there are several, several deflects every round in the movies (especially with Yoda and Obi-Wan) with much higher-level characters shooting at them. For instance, under RCRB d20 thes Clones would very likely have been the Thug 12 version (or the High Level Clonetrooper template) which are no slouches in firing at people. With the amount of deflects, even Obi-Wan and Yoda would run out of -5 ability at some point.

    This just gets back to the "Jedi vs" normals" debate most likely though, which is why I find it horrid.
  5. Pawnnolonger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2005
    I was thinking with a few minor alterations you could change Jedi to Dark Jedi for a base class if you wanted to work it that way. Changing the sentinal tree so that it says light side instead of Dark side in all instances. It's very unlikely that the consular track would work for Sith or Dark Jedi so you might use the Dark Side tree from the Force Adept or a tree from one of the alternate traditions in it's place.
  6. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    Regarding Luke vs. Jabba's goons, that was statted out in a WotC preview. They were all 2nd lvl nonheroics, so they're +1 with a pistol vs. Luke's Reflex Defense of 26. Not much to worry about there.

    Yoda has a Reflex Defense of 37, and Obi-Wan's is 30. That's without fighting defensively, which since they both are trained in Acrobatics would boost them another +5. On top of that, Obi-Wan has Soresu (Form III) mastery, which allows him to re-roll any failed Block or Deflect attempt.

    In the Saga rules, they give stats on a basic clonetrooper (nonheroic 6, +5 with blaster rifles), a clonetrooper officer (nonheroic 6/soldier 2/officer 1, +8 with heavy blaster rifles), and ARC troopers (nonheroic 6/soldier 3/elite trooper 3, +10 with heavy blaster rifles)

    So let's say that the elite clonies aren't quite ARC trooper grade, maybe like 9th or 10th lvl nonheroics. That would put them at +7 or +8 with a blaster rifle. Even as nonheroic 6/soldier 2, they'd be at +7 ranged. Heck, we could even go all-out and say that they're all ARC troopers. They're still only +10 vs. the top two Council members with Defenses in the 30's.

    On the flipside, Obi-Wan is +20 with a lightsaber, +15/+15 if he double attacks. Yoda is +25 with a saber, +24/+24 with Double Attack, or +19/+19/+19 with Triple Attack. Compare that to a basic clonie's 17 Def, commander's 18, or ARC trooper's 21. Luke is +14 with a saber, +9/+9 with Double Attack, vs. the mooks' almighty 10 Reflex Defense. It's easy to see how these Jedi mowed through their opponents like water.

    I'd say most of the Jedi that got Order 66-ed were ambushed (caught flat-footed) after having already fought for awhile (low on hps)
    Actually, it's more like heroic vs. nonheroic. That the heroic characters were also higher level than their nonheroic opponents makes it more lopsided. Which incidentally, is how it plays out in the movies ;)
  7. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    Check page 101. There's a dark side talent tree, available to any Force-sensitive.
    Adept Negotiator and Master Negotiator are totally in-step for a Dark Jedi or Sith initiate. Sending somebody 1 or 2 steps down the condition track every round as a standard action, just by talking? Mwaaaaahahahaha!!!! Imagine if you had a "captive audience" ;) That's gonna be "standard issue" for just about every Imperial Inquisitor I make up!
  8. Pawnnolonger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2005
    Well I have to look a little more closely as I don't have my book at work where I got the idea, but definately with a little editing we can have a Dark Jedi starter class. I'll tinker when I get home and post it and you can tell me what you think.
  9. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    I can see your argument there, but overall I still think it's a net improvement.

    *blinks*

    What? Have you seen them?

    You know that they stack for the most part, right?

    No, it's an incremental -5 for each attack you deflect. One attack may be, and probably is, composed of a number of individual shots. D20 is an abstract combat system. Each attack roll represents, essentially, a volley of shots or a burst of offensive swings.

    Actually, you have to burn a feat to learn your initial suite, too, unless I've misunderstood something.

    I've been playing since 1st ed WEG, too, though not with the same group.

    It's better that that, actually. It's a free reaction, which means you decide to use it retroactively. You only roll for those attacks that have already bypassed your Defense. Block and Deflect are awesome.

    If you really want to be a defensive monkey, the Soresu talent lets you reroll failed Block and Deflect rolls.

    So, let's say you're an 8th level Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 1 with a DEX and CHA of 14. You have Block, Deflect, Redirect Attack, and Soresu for talents, and you have Skill Focus (Use the Force).

    Your REF defense is 10 + 8 (your heroic level) + 2 (DEX) + 2 (class bonus) = 22.
    Your Use the Force rating is 4 (1/2 your heroic level) + 5 (UtF trained) + 5 (Skill Focus UtF) + 2 (CHA) = +16

    Let's say you're fighting someone with a blaster. They roll to attack. First, they have to beat your REF Defense of 22. Then, if they beat that, you get to roll at +16 to beat their attack roll. If you fail on that roll, you get to try again, still at a +16. If either one of those Deflect rolls succeeds, you get to redirect the shot back at the shooter.

    ... and none of this counts against your actions for the round.

    Now, it's true that if more than one attack beats your REF defense, the second set of Deflect rolls is at +11, and the third is at +6, the fourth is only at +1, etc. But you still get rerolls on all of them, and seriously, come on.

    Mind you, it's a significant investment of character resources, four talents, a feat, and a trained skill, but it's crazy good.

    Talents are useless my pasty white behind!
  10. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    We're allowed to disagree, you realize?

    I think this system is inherently bad compared to what it's revising (or, really, outright changing) but as I appear to be in the minority it's not like I'll make any sort of real difference.

    It just seems counter to what I've seen as "Star Wars" in an attempt to balance the game, much like the KOTOR games did. Game mechanics over universal constraints. I could just as easily play some other system if I wanted just to roleplay, but we like the GFFA best.
  11. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    Oh, of course, it's just that you're someone whose opinion I respect on these things, and so I'm totally baffled.
  12. Pawnnolonger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2005
    Alright my edits to the Jedi trees to make a Dark Jedi Starter class. The Guardian and Lightsaber combat talent trees are the same.

    Jedi Consular Changes

    Change Adept and Master Negotiator to Intimidator and require persuasion checks to intimidate

    Replace Skilled Advisor with Demoralizer: Use a full round action to demoralize an enemy thereby imposing a -5 penalty on their next skill check. You may spend a force point to make it a -10 penalty

    Force Persuasion stays the same.

    Jedi Sentinel changes.

    Clear mind and Force Haze stay the same

    Light Side Sense: You may re-roll a Use the Force check to sense a character with a Dark Side score less than their Wisdom Score

    Light Side Scourge: You gain a bonus on your melee damage rolls equal to your charisma modifier against any enemy who'se Dark Side points are less than their Wisdom score Prereq: Light Side Sense

    Resist the Light: You gain a +5 force bonus to all defense scores against light side powers and force powers from anyone who has no dark side points. Prereq: Light Side Sense
  13. TaintedJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 4
    Seeing as sentinel is essentially the jedi "paladin", it'd make sense to simply invert all their powers (i.e. swap the words light and dark) in all relevant descriptors. It seems you've done a little more then that, since obviously swapping words isn't going to be perfect. I'd also stress that we don't see very many "Dark Jedi" other then the era of the Shadow Academy. People like Assaji Ventress are explained away instead under the force adept or other prestige classes. There simply aren't any true "evil jedi" organizations. The Sith would be the closest bet, but it'd be much more likely that they take untrained force sensitives, train them as force adepts and then they'd take levels in sith apprentice/accolyte/whatver-it-was-that-im-too-lazy-to-check-on.

    Otherwise, if they're corrupting jedi, then you just have the jedi buy up the appropriate prestige class. And I'm not sure, but do they account for "selling" levels of the jedi prestige classes for sith classes, like they did before? Again, just haven't checked myself.

    in short, sounds like a potentially useful house rule, but not anything I'm terribly worried about. Additionally, I would like to stress that any Sith worth their salt would find diplomacy just as useful as intimidate... look at Palpy in the prequels, after all.

    I'm sure my response is woefully incomplete, so please forgive any glaring omissions but do point them out.

    -TJ
  14. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I've only skimmed through this, but gods it's a massive improvement. Sorry, dp, I like it - it reminds me of WEG. :p

    E_S
  15. Pawnnolonger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2005
    I see what you are saying here. You could easily replace the words Dark Jedi with Sith. The class would work in an Old Republic Era up to the Rise of the Empire situation where at times there were at least in the EU people trained to be Dark Jedi first. A good example of a character who would use a variant like this is Darth Maul. There were some dark Jedi trained by the Empire in the Rebelion Era as well, unless I've read some things woefully wrong.

    I'm basically thinking without a Non Prestige Force Adept Class how can someone like Darth Maul be trained as a force user from the begining without being trained as a Jedi. A force sensitive in another class doesn't work for me. Darth Maul wasn't a soldier first, he was a Dark Jedi from the begining. It's more a house rule people can use when they want to go Dark Side with their campaign.
  16. TaintedJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 4
    Yeah, it's a little annoying, true... although I heard that part of the idea too is that you can definitely BE a force user and be one of the other 4 core classes, EDIT: And don't forget page 77 says anyone who has the force sensitive feat can treats "Use the Force" as a class skill... as for Maul, well, I don't know. Sensitivity in the force can be likened to many ways to internal chi/qi/ki power in any martial art. Some styles focus strictly on cultivating "hard" power - that is the physical strength, etc - first, and as you age/grow you branch out into learning the internal aspect. For instance, Darth Maul spent many years living like an animal trying to survive before Sidious really started teaching him anything in terms of force power, right? So, he spends a couple levels growing as a scout or soldier, all the while building resentment/anger/dark force potential to be harnessed, eventually.

    At least, that's one way of looking at it.

    The Dark Jedi thing is tricky. Because don't forgot, originally the only use of the word Sith was Darth Vader as "Dark Lord of the Sith". Zahn and other people popularized the term Dark Jedi because they had no other way to describe these essentially Anti-Jedi characters. Only in the last 10 years I think was the term Sith really canonized or used. If you read early books, maybe even only early prints, Luke thinks of the Emperor and Vader as Dark Jedi, not Sith. It's the nature of retroactive additions to continuity. I think they've even gone back and cleaned up/changed older books so they're much smoother in terminology. Conspiracy, or just common sense? I'd lean to the latter in the name of it just making everything easier.

    Still, lots of good ideas, you have. Keep it up!

    -TJ
  17. Pawnnolonger Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 22, 2005
    I see what you are saying there, and that can work for some characters, but Maul is a special case, The Emperor trained him from a small child into what he was, I highly doubt he wouls train him as a scout first. That's why I wanted to think of an alternate solution.

    As far as Dark Jedi, they were far more prominent in the old Republic Era than anywhere else. Sith may be a better title for my variant.
  18. TaintedJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 4
    Really? I thought they were mostly Sith? I mean the term Dark Jedi could certainly be used to describe them too but I always thought Dark Jedi were most prominent in the New Republic era during the Shadow Academy days... but really, any Jedi who's refuted the light or uses the Dark side can be called a "Dark Jedi".

    I'm also trying to give you some feedback here, rather then spend time nitpicking... so, here's what I'm finding.

    1.) The Adept Negotiator talent allows you to "weaken the resolve of one enemy with your words". I think this is purposefully ambiguous so you may use it in the manner you're thinking. Swapping out Intimidate for Persuasion does not seem out of line. Although might I suggest terrorizing someone into unconsciousness give a temporary dark side point if only it didn't break an entry level talent right off.

    2.) Light Side Sense: I might wonder if a better choice might be to sense anyone who's dark side score is less then their wisdom modifier, or perhaps half their wisdom score? This is a tough one, since we don't really track "light side points" in Saga Ed, do we?

    3.) Light Side Scourge (perhaps renamed?... If only you knew the power of the darkside...): This one follows from 2, so make sure both adjustments are the same, whatever modifier you think is right.

    4.) Resist the Light: The problem I see here is that the Dark Side has been billed to be the quick and easy path, and the only "fair" way to demonstrate the costs of the dark side is that any non-darkside power add +5 to the difficult or your resistance to it, if only to help you. Case-in-Point: Vader could only heal his lungs in Shadows of the Empire while channelling his rage, and then with great difficulty. As soon as he felt joy, he failed. Ultimately the Dark Side is billed as being self defeating and self destructive. Darksiders are big and scary, but they're doomed to fail. This might justify overpowering the earlier talents, but it's just the nature of the beast. If we want to be "true" to the way the movies present the darkside, then it has to be set up to ultimately fail.

    Once the legacy era comics and book series have resolved, we might see enough material to effectively design a non jedi force using class that's not "doomed to fail" since we'll see a reborn and alledgedly flourishing sith order. But ultimately, it seems that many of the changes are ultimately cosmetic in nature, changing some names here and there for what should really be accomplished by "flavor text" or in game actions. Describing the use of the force, the behaviors of the character, will ultimately provide a much more powerful and lasting impression then simply having a "Dark Jedi" class, I think. Sure, the tags are nice, but it's what we do with the mechanics and not the names that are meaningful. This is, as always, IMHO.

    -TJ
  19. TaintedJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 4
    And really, the best way to demonstrate the "power of the darkside" and it's costs/benefits is better suited to the pre-existing prestige classes, I think. Or creating new ones. It'll be very hard to create a new core class that'll truly be game-balanced I think. Unless you intend to only run Darksiders as PC's, in which case swapping everything out and then having no Jedi core class would eliminate the "Adding" a class so much as "replacing" the class. Again, this just gets into my personal thoughts on how we've never been presented with a truly "From day 1" darkside force user class that will have relevant, useful powers that won't overshadow other classes.
  20. TaintedJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 4
    And on a completely unrelated note, is anyone else irritated by the color changes on Vor'en Kurn, the human male soldier archetype? Blue skin? C'mon...

    -TJ
  21. JMM Author: The Forgotten War, SW Fact File

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    star 3
    Can anyone give an idea of what characters are in the book? Especially EU-wise? The book didn't show up yet at the store I checked...
  22. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

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    No stats on EU characters at all. In the various heroic and prestige class descriptions, they list various EU characters as examples of certain classes. Off the top of my head:
    Jedi- duh!
    Noble - don't recall, outside of Padme' and Leia
    Scoundrel - Han, Lando, Dash Rendar
    Scout - Don't recall outside of Chewie, Wicket, and Jar-Jar
    Soldier - Don't recall
    Ace Pilot - Wedge, Han
    Crime Lord - Jabba, Talon Karrde
    Elite Trooper - Kyle Katarn, Page
    Force Adept - Inquisitor Tremayne, Asajj Ventress
    Force Disciple - Rokur Gepta, the Saarai-Kar
    Gunslinger - Han Solo, Jango Fett, Gallandro
    Jedi Knight - Don't recall besides Anakin & Luke
    Jedi Master - Luminara Unduli, Kit Fisto
    Officer -Thrawn
    Sith Apprentice - Lumiya, Carnor Jax, Darth Bandon, Darth Scion, Warb Null
    Sith Lord - Darth Maul, Darth Revan, Darth Nihilus, Darth Bane, Exar Kun
  23. JMM Author: The Forgotten War, SW Fact File

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    star 3
    Thanks!

    Looks like they'll be saving character stats for the various sourcebooks. Honestly, I've never been involved in any actual RPG'ing, but the sourcebooks usually have lots of great information in them, anyway.
  24. TaintedJedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2004
    star 4
    They do provide the "usual suspects" as actual stat blocks... Han, Chewie, Vader, Obi-Wan, Luke, Leia... they all get entries, but usually just one apiece (Luke as of Episode VI, for instance). But some of the 'extras' like Sebulba, Lobot, etc. Don't appear.

    -TJ
  25. JediAlly Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2000
    star 4
    I was thinking about that new lightsaber form Trakata... and I think Exar Kun used it. From Exar Kun's entry on Star Wars Wikipedia: "He also was able to independently change the length and strength of the blades, causing confusion and over/under-compensation from his opponents in combat." That sounds very much like Trakata.
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