New Star Wars RPG Core Rulebook Coming!

Discussion in 'Games: RPG & Miniatures' started by Geoff1138, Jun 30, 2006.

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  1. Forever_Lost Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2005
    At the moment, we're playing a table top game, in which we play out an alternate universe from the one that I spoke about previously. In this one, Zander killed Darth Primeous, but remained a Sith Lord. Now, with an army of Skrie troops at his side, he's waged a silent war against those who would deny his collection of the Sith Holocrons scattered throughout the galaxy.

    These are his stats as of two days ago. :)

    Darth Praesolus
    CL 16; Medium Human Jedi 7 / Jedi Knight 5 / Sith Apprentice 3 / Sith Lord 1
    Destiny 5; Force 15, Strong in the Force; Dark Side 15
    Init +17; Senses Perception +15
    Languages Basic, Binary, Huttese, Shyriiwook
    ________________________________________
    Defences Ref 33 (flat-footed 29), Fort 31, Will 31; Block, Deflect
    HP 152; Threshold 31
    Immune fear effects
    ________________________________________
    Speed 6 squares
    Melee lightsaber +21 (2d8+14/x3) or
    Melee lightsaber +19 (3d8+14/x3) with Rapid Strike or
    Melee lightsaber +16/+16 (2d8+14/x3) with Double Attack or
    Melee lightsaber +14/+14 (3d8+14/x3) with Double Attack and Rapid Strike
    Ranged by weapon +20
    Base Atk +16; Grp +20
    Atk Options Double Attack, Rapid Strike, Severing Strike
    Special Actions Djem So, Redirect Shot, temptation
    Force Powers Known (Use the Force +21):
    Battle Strike, Dark Rage (2), Farseeing, Force Grip, Force Thrust, Mind Trick, Move Object, Negate Energy (2), Rebuke, Surge
    Force Secrets None
    Force Techniques Force Point Recovery, Improved Move Light Object, Improved Sense Force
    ________________________________________
    Abilities Str 15, Dex 18, Con 15, Int 17, Wis 15, Cha 16
    Talents Block, Dark Scourge, Dark Side Adept, Deflect, Djem So, Greater Weapon Focus (lightsabers), Greater Weapon Specialization (lightsabers), Redirect Shot, Severing Strike, Weapon Specialization (lightsabers)
    Feats Double Attack (lightsabers), Force Sensitivity, Force Training (4), Rapid Strike, Skill Focus (Use the Force), Strong in the Force, Triple Crit (lightsabers), Weapon Focus (lightsabers), Weapon Proficiency (lightsabers, simple weapons)
    Skills Acrobatics +17, Endurance +15, Initiative +17, Knowledge (tactics) +16, Perception +15, Use the Force +21 (may reroll when using [dark side] Force powers)
    Possessions lightsaber (self-built), Sith robes, utility belt (with medpac)
  2. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    sheesh this forum's quiet lately, i've just been on holiday, can't believe the d6 thread is still on page 20.

    Anyhow, on the wizards site, they have new Force Unleashed stuff, as well as stats for Darth Revan

    Darth Revan CL 16


    Medium Human Jedi 7/Jedi Knight 5/Sith Apprentice 3/Sith Lord 1
    Destiny 4; Force 6: Strong in the ForceDark Side 17
    Init +16; Senses Perception +16
    Languages Basic, Mando'a, Sith

    Defenses Ref 33 (flat-footed 30), Fort 33, Will 32
    hp 145; Threshold 38
    Immune fear effects
    Speed 6 squares
    Melee lightsaber +21 (2d8+11) or
    Melee lightsaber +18/+18 (2d8+11) with Double Attack or
    Melee lightsaber +13/+13/+13 (2d8+11) with Triple Attack or
    Melee unarmed +19 (1d6+11) or
    Ranged blaster pistol +19 (3d6+8)
    Base Atk +16; Grp +19
    Atk Options Double Attack, Triple Attack
    Special Actions Adept Negotiator, Dark Side Adept, Force Focus, Skilled Advisor, temptation
    Force Powers Known (Use the Force +17): battle strike, dark rage, farseeing, Force grip, Force lightning, Force stun, move object, mind trick
    Force Techniques Force point recovery, Force power mastery (battlestrike), improved sense Force
    Abilities Str 16, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 15, Wis 17, Cha 19
    SQ Fearless, Temptation
    Talents Adept Negotiator, Armored Defense, Block, Dark Presence, Deflect, Force Deception, Force Focus, Multiattack Proficiency (lightsabers), Power of the Dark Side, Skilled Advisor
    Feats Armor Proficiency (light), Double Attack, Force Sensitivity, Force Training (2), Improved Damage Threshold, Martial Arts I, Weapon Focus (lightsabers), Strong in the Force, Triple Attack, Weapon Proficiencies (lightsabers, pistols, simple weapons)
    Skills Initiative +16, Knowledge (Tactics) +15, Acrobatics +16, Persuasion +17, Use the Force +17
    Possessions lightsaber, Darth Revan's armor
    Darth Revan's Armor: Cost: not available for sale; armor check penalty ?5; armor bonus to Reflex Defense +7; equipment bonus to Fortitude Defense +2; weight 5 kg; availability: unique. Darth Revan's unique armor provides better protection than the average light armor thanks to ancient Rakata technology.

    Now... I'm certain Revan was wearing that armour when he and Malak entered the place on Dantooine where the quarter of the star forge map was, so was this 'dark armour' simple armour enhanced by the Rakatan tech, or is it a continuity mistake, as the footage showed him in search of the maps to the star forge.


    Those stats are as of his return from the unknown regions, before being bested by the Jedi Council and rewired

  3. Jedi Merkurian Episode VII Thread-Reaper and Rumor Naysayer

    Manager
    Member Since:
    May 25, 2000
    star 6
    He might've been wearing just robes & a mask, or a non dark version of the armor...
  4. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    aye I know, but that seems strange. Sith Alchemy would do that, which he wouldn't need the Rakata for. Just makes me think they tried to do something swish which doesn't work cos of a cutscene.

    Has my opinion of wizards etc dropped so sharply that I would think that? [face_worried]

    Unfortunately so :(
  5. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    Hey, guys. It looks like I'm a little behind everyone else in getting to SAGa, but I've been reading over SAGA for the past few days, making a few characters, and getting a feel for things.

    In a nutshell:

    Pros:

    - Streamlining the skills into things like Persuasion, Mechanics, Acrobatics, etc. is a really good move.

    - Taking d20 more towards its abstract roots is for the best.

    - Character creation is a breeze, which from a GM perspective, is very refreshing, since it is much better for newer players, or players who still struggled with parts of the d20 system even after a few adventures.

    - The way the Force is handled is a vast improvement over the broken, inaccurate, and uncanonical mess of the RCRB.

    - Destiny Points are great.

    - I like the new Action Point-like Force Points. (Though I wish left-overs carried to the next level)

    - Prestige classes are a more welcome edition then they were for me in the RCRB.

    - The Talent Tree stuff is not nearly as WoWish as I initially thought.

    - Core classes are more balanced now that everyone is getting the same amount of bonus feats.

    - Reflex Defense, Fortitude Defense, and Will Defense is a much more logically sound way of handling things.

    - HP! [face_peace]

    Cons:

    - While the streamlined skill setup is a welcome edition, the "trained" or "untrained" mechanic makes things too simple. Sure it is easier on the players, but most of my group did not have a problem with dispersing skill points, honestly. Also, I don't like how higher level characters are usually better at everything -- as far as skills go -- then even low levels who may try to specialize and be "pros" in one or two skills.

    - The new Force mechanics are for the better, but I think only having one Use the Force skill is a little too simplified; personally, it makes more sense to me, canonically speaking, that there should be a Use the Force skill for Control, Sense, and Alter, individually, and a Control, Sense, and Alter Feat needed to be able to use them, which much more in line with what we've seen, continuity wise.

    - The continual inclusion of "squares" and Attacks of Opportunity are an eyesore as usual.

    - I understand the concept behind the Jedi delfection mechanics, but I'm still not sure if I like it or not.

    - Feats seem weak. Any good munchking would be much better off selecting Skill Focus over and over.

    - Again, no epic level rules...

    Overall: After getting a chance to really go over the book, I was pleasantly surprised by a few things. It is not nearly as bad in some areas as I had initially thought. However, not all of the additions are necessarily good for my gaming group. Technically, it is better than the RCRB, but for everything it fixes, it brings with it something puzzling. The net result is still an improvement, and for that, I'm very thankful. The lack of fluff material and new artwork is dissapointing, though. And the RCRB had a lot more stats in it as well.

    Anyway, I had a few questions, too.

    dizfactor, what exactly did you find to be so backwards about the Dark Side mechanics, if you don't mind?

    dp4m, I follow you on the oversimplification of the skills, and the weirdness of the deflect mechanics, but what were your thoughts on the the way the Force was handled? Did you particularly think it was an improvement over the RCRB?

    (Oh, 2nd ed. D6 > 2nd ed. R&E D6 > SAGA > RCRB > 1st ed. D6 > OCRB)

    :p
  6. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    To tap into the dark side to gain power, you need to make a decision beforehand to make a permanent investment of resources into dark side force powers and talents. Dark side points, once earned, are pretty easy to burn off.

    That's totally backwards. The dark side is supposed to be easy to tap into spontaneously in a moment of doubt or weakness for a quick boost of power, but once its taint is on you, it should be hard as hell to get rid of it. You can't get that slow slide into the dark side you should be able to have, where your back is to the wall and you tap into the dark side "just this once" to wipe the floor with your enemies, and then it happens again, etc.

    You have to pretty much make a premeditated choice to turn to the dark side before you get the goodies, whereas the goodies should lure you in, but once you're in, they fade a bit, and you're trapped.
  7. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    I've been reading more through the book, and I see more and more of what dizfactor is saying. This is really becoming a major gripe for me in this edition: Force Points can burn-off Dark Side Points, there are no Dark Side powers that can be used untrained anymore, despite canonical instances of it happening (SBS, Traitor), and worst of all, there is absolutely no temptation for a PC to give in to the Dark Side -- ever. All the Dark Side powers have to be learned first, so that's out of the question anyway. You CAN'T call upon the Dark Side when using a Force Point until you pick a talent. There are not any rules for gaining Destiny/Force Points/whatever in exchange for Dark Side points anymore, either. And there is no tempting bonus for having Dark Side points on hand, like in the old WEG system.

    The concept of the Dark Side is an area that the RCRB was superior in hands down. In SAGA, there is no "give into the Dark Side in a moment of desperation" factor anymore. And that is very unlike Star Wars.

    On a smaller note, there doesn't seem to be a way for a Force-user to increase his physical prowess. Surge is great for movement and Jump, but what if I want to beef-up my STR, DEX, and CON a little?

    Now, about Vader vs. Luke in Empire. This is where the the the "One use of a particular power per encounter" gets a little wacky. That could not have been a use of Move Light Object, since it is clear he was throwing stuff a lot bigger than 5kg. Yes, he could use Force Points to keep doing it, but in that instance, he would have had to use three or four! It just seems a little silly for a casual beat down of a Jedi newb to cost so much.

    Force Disarm seems a little redundant, honestly. Why is that even a power? Wouldn't regular Move Light Object work just the same for snatching a blaster out of someone's hand? Simply let the opponent have his relfex save as normal, no silly powers.
  8. HansHunkyChest Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2003
    star 1
    Vader was trying to wear Luke down to get him to give in to the Dark Side and help him overthrow the Emperor. If he was looking to simply beat down Luke he could have done so fairly easily.
  9. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    That is certainly a plausible explanation. However, I still think it is a little strange that he would have to burn so many Force Points in order to wear away at him. Previous editions made this scenario a little more logical.

    But the Vader and Luke on Bespin things isn't all of what irks me about SAGA. Take Vader and Luke, again, on the DS II. It has been a tradition since WAY back in the old WEG 2nd ed. that, in concordance with the ROTJ script and novelization, the Dark Side was actively feeding both Luke and Vader, tempting either to use its power and strike the other down. In game terms, this was shown as a "favor" mechanic, where the Dark Side would on rare events offer a Force-user a free Dark Side Force Point, without the Force-user having to actively call upon the Dark Side, in an attempt to lure him in. Roughly the same concept for the ROTJ duel was carried over to the d20 editions; in this case, Luke uses a Force Point to put the smack-down on Vader, but perverts it with his anger, and of course, receives his Dark Side Point for it.

    No such mechanism exists for SAGA, though it is clear that the Dark Side was offering Luke extra power during that duel. Sure, Luke's "PC" could role-play the anger and hate, but no actual bonus would be given for giving in to it.
  10. Rogue_Thunder FanForce CR, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2003
    star 6
    QFT. I'm going to be running my first SE game in a couple weeks, and one of the things I actually wanted to try this time was to tempt my PC's to the dark side. I'm gonna have to "house rule" it, because if there's no support, then I'm not gonna have much fun with it. Any ideas what dark-side powers should be "untrained" ones?
  11. Koohii Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2003
    star 5
    TK Force Choke/Injure/kill.

    That is by far and away the biggest, since it is just a perversion of TK.
  12. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    Force Lightning would be another; it has been shown in several sources now to be used without training. Also -- you might consider Saga's Force Slam (essentially Injure/Kill or Force Strike from d20 RCRB). More intelligently honed TK requires training than a raw application of it, so it seems.
  13. Rogue_Thunder FanForce CR, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2003
    star 6
    Yeah, I know Jacen used Force Lightning untrained in Traitor, though off the top of my head I can't think of any others. Any suggestions on Force Points, relating to calling on the dark side?
  14. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Jaina
    Luke
    Dathomiri (not using the Spell of Lightning version)

    Also, it was established at least in the RCRB if not the OCRB. NOTHING in WEG could be used without the specific power that I recall...
  15. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    Merkurian and I are throwing around some ideas about this over in the House Rules thread right now. Check it out.
  16. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    Just to make sure I'm reading this the right way. Do you mean that according to WEG rules, only powers you were trained in could be used?

    If so, I'm sure in 2nd Edit. R&E, your GM had the option of letting his players acheive something with the help of a Force Point, at a particularly relevant time/situation. This could be attributed to Luke's use of Telekinesis in ESB/Splinter of the Mind's Eye (he did use T/K in SotME, right?)

    I imagine that if a GM is willing to allow a generic Force user, therefore possibly a lightsider, use an unknown power in such a way; I'm sure the Dark Side would be even more willing to help in such a situation when called upon, especially if there's a hint of desperation and/or fear in the air.

    If it isn't what you meant DP, then nevermind, got a point across of some sort :p

  17. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    It isn't. I never got as far as R&E (since it was "teh stupid") but in original versions of WEG -- or at least the good 2nd edition -- you couldn't use a power untrained.
  18. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    I'm curious. What were your problems with R&E, if you don't mind?
  19. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    It was another edition that wasn't needed and was designed solely to make me buy a new edition?

    I don't mind complete structural changes like D&D 1 -> 2 -> 3 or even if they get it wrong the first time and revise WEG 1st -> WEG 2nd, OCRB -> RCRB, D&D 3.0 -> 3.5 but things like R&E just seemed... fail.

    I don't own any of the books and it's obviously been years, but I recall disliking R&E immensely but as I haven't played WEG in years I can't verify anything in specific.
  20. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    Geez - the more I dig into SAGA, the more I'm starting to hate it outright, again...

    After some use, a couple of other issues became apparently clear to me: Use the Force is WAY, WAY too broad of a skill, and allows Jedi players too much power early on. I recognized this early on, but that was more in regards to the uncanonical feel of one over all Force skill. Now I simply deplore it on a game-play basis.

    Next - and I can't even believe I'm about to say this, but I'm a fair sport - but the Force skill/vitality cost system of the previous editions... wasn't so bad afterall. [face_beatup] :oops: I really have to say, that as much as I've bashed Wizards over this one in the past, I practically owe them an apology. [face_plain]

    There, I said it. Reason being, I still think it could have used a lot of work - and the overall Force skill stuff still seems broken to me at times - and while I like the WEG throwback to no insanely harsh, stamina-draining Force-use, there is SO much room for abuse on this. Jedi with a couple of basic Force skills are already dominating combat. The vitality cost really did help tone this down. I didn't realize it as much before, but now I'm going back and already considering some house rules to just fix the old way!

    There have been some good additions to Force Powers - Force Stun, for example, was badly needed. The basic suite that all Force users get is really great, too. But what's with the redundancy in Telekinetic powers? There's Move Object, Force Thrust, Force Slam, Force Disarm. . . I mean, as I've said before, Force Disarm is just stupid, and should be covered by Move Object already. Force Slam and Thrus, while having slight nuances of difference, is pretty much just re-introducing Force Strike (RCR) and Force Push (OCR) at the same time, which is weird. Surge seems awfully weak for Force Jumps. As far as Force powers go, there aren't very many, either. I know WotC are really big on sticking to the "movies only" powers for the core rules, and I'm sure they plan to cover more in their sourcebooks as well, but I'd personally prefer a few more in a core book then what is there.

    Strangely, the old Split Force option is now a talent, so not just any Force-user can use a power on multiple targets unless the power already affects multiple targets or just as a wide radius, which does not even begin to make sense. It is terribly weak and costly, too. (One Force Point to use Split Force to affect ONE extra target? Come on!)

    As I've said in earlier posts, I DO like the refinement of the skill lists, but after testing and creating several characters, the simplification down to just trained or untrained still bothers me. More on this, I'm all for streamlining the process for the GM, but... it's just that a lot of the rules are striking me as if the developers assume I'm an idiot, and trying to dumb everything down for me as much as possible.

    Actual trial runs confirmed to me that the Feats are weak like I initially thought. At least it is good that you get more, though. (I guess)

    Overall, after fooling around a little bit, I think my group is probably looking at a few house rules to take the best of Saga, and the best of OCR/RCR. Which honestly, should work out quite well. We've done the same thing over the years with the three editions of d6 - find what works best for us from each, and play. To give props to WotC, I'm glad that they made SAGA easily convertable from system to system.

    I'll probably give a write-up for our group's house rules for our game.
  21. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    hey, while we're bashing the force rules of saga ( :p ) Is there a way to change your Force suite? apart from just adding to it I mean.

    I would house rule any Force power that your character has multiple times in their force suite can 'unlearn' it and replace it with a power they have trained in as long as it doesn't take the total amount down to below 1. Therefore that power is always in the suite, but not in multiples.
  22. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    Hey - it isn't anything personal; I've bashed RCR just as bad. :p

    As for your question: No, I do not think there is. At least - I have not seen it.
  23. Rogue_Thunder FanForce CR, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

    Chapter Rep
    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2003
    star 6
    Well here's my house rules for the Dark Side... *shrugs* It's what I've got, so it'll have to do for my game...

    Force Points ? All die results are used and added when using a Force Point for any purpose.

    Force Power descriptors ? Until your Dark Side Score equals half your Wisdom score (rounded down) or higher, then you may double the amount of Force Point dice used to modify your Use the Force roll. After that point, when you use a Force Point, you may roll only the number of dice described on page 93 (SECR), until your Dark Side Score equals your wisdom score, at which point decrease the number of dice rolled by 1. In other words, a 6th level character, with a Wisdom score of 12, may double their dice to 2d6, instead of 1d6 when calling on the Dark Side, until that characters Dark Side Score is greater than 6 (½ the Wis score) then that character can only use 1d6 when using a Force point (at minimum, a character is allowed to use at least 1d6). An 8th level character, with a Dark Side Score of 12 (or higher) and a Wisdom score of 12 can only roll 1d6, when using a Force Point.

    Dark Side Force Powers ? Dark Side Force Powers with the [Dark Side] descriptor can be used untrained, meaning that these powers do not need to be added to your Force Power Suite to be utilized, until your Dark Side Score equals ½ your Wisdom score. At which point you will need to either invest the Force Training feat into a Dark Side skill, or expend a Wisdom score increase that increases the modifier to add that Force Power to your Force Power Suite. If there are no feats or ability score increases to expend on adding a Dark Side power to your suite, then you must unlearn another Force Power and change it to a Dark Side power of the players choice.

    Force Grip ? Force Grip, when used on a living target, is a Dark Side power, and as such, can be used untrained, but only in the instance where it brings harm to a living creature, and can be chosen as a required Dark Side power for when your Dark Side score is equal to half your Wisdom score
  24. Forever_Lost Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2005
    Man, I can never settle on one damn system over another! :(

    To be honest, I keep getting pulled back and forth between three systems: WEG 2nd Ed R&E, WotC RCR, and Saga Edition Rulebook. Each one for different reasons.

    WEG: I like this one the most because it's just so diverse, and seems to capture the fast-paced essence of the movies. Plus, you can make any character you want, without class restrictions etc.

    RCR: Because my Star Wars gaming began with this rule system, and I've just been sent a tonne of sourcebooks for it.

    SAGA: Because it's simple, fast-paced, and has a good feel about it... But the vast errata that they've added for it annoys me. They've made a lot of mistakes on a book they were being really careful in writing, and I don't like the fact that I have to double check most rulings to see if it's official, or a mistake.

    My players agree with me... They suggested making three write ups of all the characters, and then switching between them when we felt like a different set of rules. I'm not too sure... I think I might just stick with the d6 rules...

    And thus ends my little random rant. :D
  25. Jedi_Matt Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 11, 2002
    star 4
    Has anyone been checking the Wizards site recently? I just found like... 5 previews relating to the Legacy of the Force miniature packs including minis AND SAGA stats for Darth Krayt, Cade Skywalker, Han Solo as of LotF, Kyle Katarn as of LotF, Shado Vao, Deliah Blue, as well as some others. Here's the link to the 5th, there are links to the other four at the top of this page.

    EDIT: Found this new book too.

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