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Discussions NJO: The Strongest of all the Jedi Era's?

Discussion in 'EU Community' started by Silas Nightstalker, Oct 2, 2013.

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  1. Silas Nightstalker

    Silas Nightstalker Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 7, 2012
    While lacking in numbers, I believe that the Jedi of the New Jedi Order were the strongest of all the Jedi Era's, at least in a few thousand years. Names like the Skywalkers and Solo's, Ganner Rhysode, Kyle Katarn, Kyp Durron, Tahiri Veila.

    I feel that since the NJO was forged from the fires of war, each individual Jedi were better combatants than their predecessors.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. Adalia-Durron

    Adalia-Durron WNU/Costume/Props/EUC Mod. star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Jun 3, 2003
    Its got Kyp, end of discussion! :p Ok, that's just my point of view.....anyone else got something more intelligent and less lust filled to say?
     
  3. Darth_Zandalor

    Darth_Zandalor Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 2, 2009
    Children playing with lightsabers, but not Jedi.

    I still say that the time of the ancient Sith was the ultimate time for force users. Tulak Hord apparently was a master of saber combat that made modern jedi look like the above quote.
     
  4. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011
    ^Yeah I tend to think the same. Vergere showed a clear disdain for their skills and abilities when she talked to Luke about them. Seems like there are certainly standouts among the Order, but saying that the NJO is the best of all time is probably a stretch.
     
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  5. Skywalker_T-65

    Skywalker_T-65 Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Nov 19, 2009
    Perhaps better to say it had more individual stand outs. Luke, Kyle, Kyp, Jacen-pre Sith, Anakin Solo...so on and so forth. Average Jedi were probably not as good as their predecessors for various reasons, and they certainly had no advantage in numbers.
     
  6. Shadow Trooper

    Shadow Trooper Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 18, 2013
    While not the best of all time, the NJO did strike me as being far more capable than the PT order. Aside from a few standouts like Yoda, Kenobi, and Skywalker, the vast majority of the PT Jedi never struck me as anything but glorified redshirts (or brown robes in this case) with little to distinguish them from one another except oddly shaped heads. The NJO, while not having nearly as many Jedi nor access to much of the old training methods the PT Jedi, still managed to repel the Vong, managing to fight a war the scale of the Clone wars with a fraction of the man power, showing the NJO had quality not quantity when it came to their Jedi.
     
  7. General Valerian

    General Valerian Jedi Knight star 4

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    Mar 6, 2013
    The Prequel was stated by George Lucas to be the "golden age of the Jedi". He was referring to skill. I doubt he was referring to sheer numbers, considering that in TOR there are at least the same quantity of Jedi. However, I don't think the ancient Sith times was the peak for either group.

    Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord ever. Darth Vader is 80% of Sidious' power. Darth Krayt is considerably powerful. Darth Bane is arguably one of the most powerful. Darth Nihilus is a powerhouse. Darth Traya, as well. I'm not saying the ancient Sith weren't powerful, of course they were, but I also consider 'ancient Sith' Emperor Vitiate and his whole Sith Empire, which would make perfect sense in relation to Kreia's words about the current Jedi looking like 'children playing with toys'. I think this was proven to be true when the Exile (along with Scourge) went up against Darth Nyriss and she tooled them with her lightsaber and was about to tool them with the Force had Revan not intervened.

    However, you seem to be missing something. DarthJenari Darth_Zandalor :

    Kreia was a KOTOR Sith/Jedi. The PT, the OT and Darth Bane's reign were all after she spoke those words. What she said doesn't apply to them. And with good reason, considering RotS Sidious = RotS Yoda. Yoda is stated as "the most devastating foe the darkness had ever seen"... Which puts him as the no. 1 Jedi up to RotS. Considering RotS Sidious is already arguably the most powerful Sith Lord by that date, the fact that Yoda is his equal only makes it more clear.

    The PT/OT has Jedi like Yoda, Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto, Cin Drallig, Qui-Gon Jinn, Galen "pulledaStarDestroyerdown" Marek, and others of amazing skill. We have Sith like Ventress, Oppress, Maul, Sidious, Dooku---who is stated to be "one of the 25,000 year Order's greatest Jedi" and "an even greater Sith"... I mean, come on. It's ridiculous to think the ancient Sith had anything on these guys. The only ancient Sith who can even come close to Darth Sidious is Emperor Vitiate.
     
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  8. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    This is how I see it. Again, Vergere herself was disgusted by the decline in abilities and skill of the NJO, which makes sense when you consider that previously Jedi had trained their entire lives to use and understand the Force, whereas in NJO most of them have trained maybe a decade max, and their understanding of the Force and ways of the Jedi are severely lacking compared to past generations. You can't look at either the NJO Jedi are say they're all equivalent or even near Luke, or the OT Jedi and say they're near Yoda. I think the duel in the Chancellor's office between Mace and Sidious shows that. the other 3 masters were killed in seconds, and only Mace and Yoda could put up a prolonged fight, showing the tremendous gap in skill between them and the average Jedi. Whereas previously you had Jedi constantly battling Sith and other Darksiders. Dooku himself commented many times on how the art of simple dueling had declined, and much of the same was said by Kreia thousands of years before (Though there were still Jedi Vs Sith wars after her statement, so I'd think the Jedi before Ruusan would've still been fairly capable duelists.)
     
  9. General Valerian

    General Valerian Jedi Knight star 4

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    Mar 6, 2013
    Actually, those three Jedi killed in mere seconds are stated as "celebrated swordsmen" and "the finest of the Order"... The fact that Sidious managed to kill them like that only demonstrated the immense power of the Sith Lord, not the weakness of those Jedi.

    And the average dark siders and Sith whom the Jedi battle in the past where not anywhere close the level of Sith like Sidious, Dooku, Vitiate, Bane, etc. They were average Jedi and average Sith fighting against each other, with only a handful actually standing out.

    If you pit those three Jedi killed by Sidious in seconds against average Sith of the past battling against Jedi, I doubt the average Sith would defeat them.
     
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  10. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    Exactly my point. The best the Order had to offer after Yoda and Mace were killed in seconds, again showing just how large the gap was between them all, and why you can't judge the Order based on those two. Nowhere did I say it portrayed them as weak.

    You're not getting it. No Sith in the past was equivalent to Sidious, and no Jedi in the present save the two standouts were able to compete with him. Judging any Order at all based on him therefore makes no sense.

    You're focusing on standouts, but you're asking about an entire Order, so you have to focus on the quality of the average Jedi. The entire Skywalker bloodline, Yoda and Mace, say nothing about the rest of the Order.
     
  11. General Valerian

    General Valerian Jedi Knight star 4

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    Mar 6, 2013
    DarthJenari

    "The PT/OT has Jedi like Yoda, Mace Windu, Anakin Skywalker, Obi-Wan, Kit Fisto, Cin Drallig, Qui-Gon Jinn, Galen "pulledaStarDestroyerdown" Marek, and others of amazing skill. We have Sith like Ventress, Oppress, Maul, Sidious, Dooku---who is stated to be "one of the 25,000 year Order's greatest Jedi" and "an even greater Sith"... I mean, come on. It's ridiculous to think the ancient Sith had anything on these guys. The only ancient Sith who can even come close to Darth Sidious is Emperor Vitiate."


    I'm arguing the average Jedi of the PT would defeat the average Jedi of previous eras, and I was rendering Kreia's quote ineffective when judging Jedi and Sith coming after her time. Dooku was arrogant, and his words are not to be taken for granted. And those individuals are not a handful, considering there are others I didn't mention.
     
  12. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    Yoda and Mace aren't average Jedi. Their fights with Palpatine again shows that. Anakin's the Chosen One, his entire family is an anomaly. The rest of the people you mentioned can be taken into account, except Galen as he's not a Jedi of the PT or any era really, or even really a Jedi for that matter.

    This is also an argument about Jedi, not Sith, but i'd say that numerous Sith can be compared to the likes of Dooku and Maul, Ventress and Oppress as well though they aren't Sith. It should also be noted that many of these people simply trounced the Jedi they did end up facing, with only a few (Again, standouts) managing to stand against them time and again. You're acting as if every other Jedi was going up against one of these guys and winning. They weren't. Dooku is on the level of Yoda and Mace, which i'd say also discounts him from being average, and was able to take on Anakin and Obi-Wan at their best, at the same time.

    Also, are you arguing for the PT or the NJO here? Because I thought the point of this thread was about how the NJO compared to previous eras, not how the PT compared to previous eras.

    You're arguing for average using feats standout characters pulled off.
     
  13. General Valerian

    General Valerian Jedi Knight star 4

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    Mar 6, 2013

    I never said they were average. They're anything but average, and that's exactly the point. All those I mentioned are anything but average, and they're not a handful. The quantity of quality Jedi in the PT was higher than in previous eras. That's why I'm pointing those out.

    Outside of that, I think that the average Jedi of the PT would win against the average Jedi of most eras.

    The thread is asking us if we think the NJO Jedi are the strongest overall, and I'm saying PT Jedi are better overall compared to the NJO and most eras.
     
  14. DarthJenari

    DarthJenari Jedi Master star 4

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    Dec 17, 2011

    When talking about the strength of an era of Jedi or Sith, you have to look at the Order as a whole. Having someone like say Luke Skywalker/Darth Sidious is certainly amazing, but it says nothing about the actual Order unless they're putting out Jedi and Sith like that all the time. Yoda and Mace are the best the Order has to offer, freaks of nature. The same goes for Dooku and Anakin, which is why I see no point bringing them into the discussion at all really, because the majority of the members of their Order or any Order aren't equal to them. All powerful Jedi, but all standouts, noted in certain areas as being the best of the era. The average Jedi they were not. Now let's look at the rest of the people you pointed out:

    Cin, Qui-Gon, Kit, and Obi-Wan. The last is the only one i'd say is really amazing, that i'd consider to be top tier if you will. The rest, while skilled, aren't that great that i'd say they trump so many Jedi of the previous eras.


    I'd say the Jedi ranging from, not sure if we'd count them all as one era or not the Great Sith War-Dark Wars were the best quality wise.
     
  15. Silas Nightstalker

    Silas Nightstalker Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 7, 2012
    I think of Ganner Rhysode, who's telekinetic abilities included self-levitation...the only other Jedi/Sith I've seen that from is Dooku. There may have been others, but he's the only one that comes to mind. Ganner Rhysode, who took his last stand against THOUSANDS of Vong, slaughtering them easily, despite not being able to sense them through the Force. This may seem like blasphemy, but I would place Ganner with the likes of Obi-Wan, Dooku, and Mace Windu. And of course Kyp, supposedly having more raw Force potential than Luke, which means more potential than Anakin, which also means more than Yoda or even Sidious.
     
  16. Shadow Trooper

    Shadow Trooper Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 18, 2013
    Ganner is a special case, because he was only able to do this when he was about to die and no longer cared about surviving. This freedom allowed him to go fully into the force and continue fighting despite taking many severe injuries. It is similar to how Anakin Solo in Star by Star used the force to keep himself fighting even though he was barely able to stand however the effort killed him anyways. I agree that the order as a whole though was greater than the PT Jedi, as this very small group of Jedi with barely 10 years of training and far less knowledge of Force techniques than the PT Jedi managed to fight a huge galactic war and win.
     
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  17. Silas Nightstalker

    Silas Nightstalker Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 7, 2012
    Exactly. They were a brand new generation, defending a Republic still unsteady from winning the Galactic Civil War, and despite their small numbers and many losses, they ultimately defeated the Vong.
     
  18. zompusbite

    zompusbite Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 3, 2014
    What you forget or omit to metion is that in the case of the PT, the Force itself was against them. Bliding them of any hint from the future, clouding their visions and instincts to such a point that they could not recognize allies from enemies. The senate was against them, the majority of the galaxy was against them, even among themself there was schism. It was part of the prophecy : the Force wanted the Order destroyed by Sidious and Anakin/Vader, used Padme to give birth to the future Jedi Order and bring back Anakin to the Lightside by killing Sidious to bring balance. The Jedi of this era were not in war against the Sith, but against the Force. They were fated to lost. This has nothing to do with their abilities. The circumstances were radically different for NJO: they had the Force with them and the entire galaxy was united against the Vong. And in addition they were militarily and technologically superior to their predecessors thanks to the military programs of Palpatine and his Empire. The Jedi were not the only ones fighting the war as was the case for OJO (apart the clones, only the Jedi have fought on the front), then this was not a question of numbers but of a galaxy divided or united. According the conversation between Titch and Wedge in Betrayal :
    "He also glanced after his partner, apparently making sure she was out of earshot. He turned back to Wedge. “Let me add this,” he said. “I’m sick of hearing the Rebel Alliance generation brag about how they stomped the Empire and then whine about how the galaxy owes them a living, or special favors. The Empire would have kicked the Yuuzhan Vong in the teeth, and I wouldn’t have lost almost everyone I knew when I was a kid, if you hadn’t ‘won.’ Well, the higher-ups seem to think they owe you a little dignity, so here it is. Eat your meals, get in some quiet exercise, keep your mouth shut, and when all the shouting’s done, you can go home and finish your self-serving memoirs about how you single-handedly won half a dozen wars. That’s the deal. Got it?”
    Wedge studied him. “If you’d been a little smarter, I might have left you some shred of a career when I leave here. But I won’t. You’ll be cleaning refreshers for the rest of your life.”
    Titch snorted, unimpressed. He backed out of the doorway, and the door slid shut.

    Thank you for reading me.
     
  19. zompusbite

    zompusbite Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 3, 2014

    What you forget or omit to metion is that in the case of the PT, the Force itself was against them. Bliding them of any hint from the future, clouding their visions and instincts to such a point that they could not recognize allies from enemies. The senate was against them, the majority of the galaxy was against them, even among themself there was schism. It was part of the prophecy : the Force wanted the Order destroyed by Sidious and Anakin/Vader, used Padme to give birth to the future Jedi Order and bring back Anakin to the Lightside by killing Sidious to bring balance. The Jedi of this era were not in war against the Sith, but against the Force. They were fated to lost. This has nothing to do with their abilities. The circumstances were radically different for NJO: they had the Force with them and the entire galaxy was united against the Vong. And in addition they were militarily and technologically superior to their predecessors thanks to the military programs of Palpatine and his Empire. The Jedi were not the only ones fighting the war as was the case for OJO (apart the clones, only the Jedi have fought on the front), then this was not a question of numbers but of a galaxy divided or united. According the conversation between Titch and Wedge in Betrayal :
    "He also glanced after his partner, apparently making sure she was out of earshot. He turned back to Wedge. “Let me add this,” he said. “I’m sick of hearing the Rebel Alliance generation brag about how they stomped the Empire and then whine about how the galaxy owes them a living, or special favors. The Empire would have kicked the Yuuzhan Vong in the teeth, and I wouldn’t have lost almost everyone I knew when I was a kid, if you hadn’t ‘won.’ Well, the higher-ups seem to think they owe you a little dignity, so here it is. Eat your meals, get in some quiet exercise, keep your mouth shut, and when all the shouting’s done, you can go home and finish your self-serving memoirs about how you single-handedly won half a dozen wars. That’s the deal. Got it?”
    Wedge studied him. “If you’d been a little smarter, I might have left you some shred of a career when I leave here. But I won’t. You’ll be cleaning refreshers for the rest of your life.”
    Titch snorted, unimpressed. He backed out of the doorway, and the door slid shut.

    Thank you for reading me.
     
  20. Bardan_Jusik

    Bardan_Jusik Former Manager star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Dec 14, 2009
    zompusbite, double posting is considered spam, especially when you are simply stating the exact same thing over again.
     
  21. zompusbite

    zompusbite Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Sep 3, 2014
  22. DurararaFTW

    DurararaFTW Jedi Master star 4

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    Jul 5, 2014
    See the thing is, Kreia is pretty old. She was there for the Great Sith War. Uliq Qel-Droma and Exar Kun and the lot are her contemporaries. They're the "we" that are pathetic children playing with toys compared to the Ancient Sith of old, not neccesarily Mace and Yoda. Let's keep that in mind while we consider her statement.
     
  23. Meyerm

    Meyerm Jedi Padawan star 2

    Registered:
    Aug 17, 2014
    By the time of the rise of the empire and fall of the old republic, jedi and sith alike seemed to have lost many abilities and pieces of knowledge they had access to in antiquity. That being said, I think perhaps late in the new sith wars was the peak for the jedi. They practically owned the republic with jedi often being elected chancellor and the jedi have more direct control over the military than at any other point. Plus the sheer number of powerful jedi that were combating the sith. If this period wasn't the peak, then maybe just before the 100 years darkness or during the great galactic war (except towards the end).
     
  24. Cushing's Admirer

    Cushing's Admirer Chosen One star 7

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    Jun 8, 2006
    I don't there has been a strong Jedi Era yet.
     
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