"No compulsion in religion": The tragedy of Abdul Rahman

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Nightowl, Mar 22, 2006.

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  1. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

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    He knew the risks of conversion in a society such as that.
  2. darkcide Jedi Master

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    Jun 17, 2003
    star 4
    When I said killing him would be no different than what happened to Jews in the Holocaust I meant in principle. Killing one human being just because he is in some way different from the majority of the place he lives is no less wrong in principle than doing it to millions of people. That is not "trivialising" anything,E_S.
  3. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

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    Yes it is. It's an emotive argument and Muslims are not persecuting Christians. No matter how much people want to believe that they are, they're not. They're following their beliefs. Jews in the holocaust were scapegoats. Besides the fact, he knew the risk of converting in his society. He's got no-one to blame but himself.
  4. darkcide Jedi Master

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    star 4
    Muslims are not persecuting Christians? Have you noticed what has been going on in Nigeria lately?
  5. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

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    I was talking about Afghanistan...you know..the topic at hand.
  6. Jediflyer Force Ghost

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    FID, by inserting Muslim law into their Constitution, they are by default persecuting all who are not Muslim, including Christians.

  7. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

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    Possibly. I consider persecution to be active on a massive scale. Not something that just happens by default. Persecution also implies intent.
  8. Ender Sai Chosen One

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    There's a difference between discrimination and persecution, JediFlyer. It's a degree of activity; simply saying, "You've less rights than a Muslim" is a world apart from, "We're going to hunt you down and destroy everything you value."

    E_S
  9. Jediflyer Force Ghost

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    "We're going to hunt you down and destroy everything you value."

    You don't think that is the case in this instance?

  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

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    I am aware of a Jewish man living in Kabul; and I know that there are still pockets of Christianity in the border regions. No, it's not; Mr Rahman converted from Islam which makes him an apostate; the law is clear enough to the old school judges.

    We're talking a people who let thousand year old Buddhas be destroyed without so much as a word of protest - expecting legal sensibility here is commendable, but also idealistic.

    E_S
  11. Jediflyer Force Ghost

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    I never said it wasn't the law, I said that persecution was embedded in the law.

  12. darkcide Jedi Master

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    Just because a government or group has the power to do something,that doesn't give them the right to do it.
  13. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

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    Oh REALLY? Our government has done a lot contrary to that belief.


    It's not persecution just because it's a law, JF.
  14. Jediflyer Force Ghost

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  15. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

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    Yes, and there's still intent behind it. You can't write persecution into law. Laws are just rules on paper and if no-one follows them they're useless. You're thinking like an American again. It's a cultural transgression. And last I checked there's no mass-genocide of Christians in Afghanistan. Just some dumb guy that knew he broke the law.
  16. Ender Sai Chosen One

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  17. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

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    Exactly, they don't know it's wrong to kill someone over their beliefs. They're patently ignorant in that regard.

    Wouldn't you agree?

    In my pov, there is a right and wrong. The authorities in Afganistan are wrong, dead wrong. I don't care what culture they're from and I don't care what religion they belong to. I honestly couldn't care less, it could be a nation full of Baptists like me.

    We are all humans, born equally and I won't sway from that point of view. Killing people because of their religious beliefs is plain ignorant, ignorant of human rights.


    We are a nation of every nationality and every creed. Please refrain from using generalizations, you have no idea how disparate beliefs are from American to American. There is no 'American' thinking though your country's press would have you believe it.

    Secondly, I don't think this Afghan is dumb. There is no proof of this, can you provide me with some?

    Guess what I think is dumb? Calling for his head to be chopped off because he believes in something else, that's ignorant.





  18. Ender Sai Chosen One

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    Let's be clear, rather than throwing around emotional statements that are inaccurate.

    He's wasn't to be killed because he's Christian. He was facing death because Afghanistan's constitution claims "No law can be contrary to the sacred laws of Islam", their shari'a dictating death for apostacy.

    He was facing execution for coverting from Islam, in accordance with Islamic laws. As Australian PM John Howard rightly said we're not risking the lives of Australian soldiers to allow this to occur. He said, "This is fundamental stuff, you cannot support a regime which allows people to be executed because they have changed their religion."

    I agree, and through diplomacy and reason, it looks like he's getting off.

    E_S
  19. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
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    Exactly, they don't know it's wrong to kill someone over their beliefs. They're patently ignorant in that regard.

    Wouldn't you agree?


    No, I wouldn?t. I don?t consider the American way too enlightened where killing people is concerned.

    In my pov, there is a right and wrong. The authorities in Afganistan are wrong, dead wrong. I don't care what culture they're from and I don't care what religion they belong to. I honestly couldn't care less, it could be a nation full of Baptists like me.

    That is the American way of thinking. ;) Black and white when there are very few occasions where black and white would apply.

    We are all humans, born equally and I won't sway from that point of view. Killing people because of their religious beliefs is plain ignorant, ignorant of human rights.

    Human rights?we don?t have that great of a track record there. Adherence to human rights would also imply we rid ourselves of the death penalty. So until that is the case, when we truly stand-up for human rights and not an Afghan who should?ve known better, I?d say our room to talk is quite slim.

    We are a nation of every nationality and every creed. Please refrain from using generalizations, you have no idea how disparate beliefs are from American to American. There is no 'American' thinking though your country's press would have you believe it.

    I can make that generalization because there is a general attitude among Americans, if you?re born here, you think like an American. And if you?re an immigrant you eventually begin to think this way. It?s this arrogance that thinks our culture is so superior to everyone else?s, that everyone should be like us. I?ve seen plenty of Americans who?ve displayed this attitude. And while it may be morally repugnant to you that a culture dare practice something you don?t agree with; it is still not your place to make judgments on their behaviors. Especially when our own is quite horrendous itself. This goes for past and present transgressions. What about Muslims who were humiliated in abu-ghraib? I didn?t see any of this outrage over that. And that?s emotionally 10x worse than being killed for switching beliefs. No, what I saw was, ?Any humiliation is better than what they do to our men. Hyuck hyuck!? Hypocrisy at its finest.

    So you can get on me for a generalization, but that is what I mean by thinking like an American. Ignorant of facts, of any outside realization of any culture but our own. And generally saying foolish things like, ?Send in Delta Force to save him. Hey, isn?t Chuck Norris in that group? Yeah, he?ll kick a little ass for America and our Christian brothers! God bless America and Chuck Norris.?

    Secondly, I don't think this Afghan is dumb. There is no proof of this, can you provide me with some?

    I?ve pointed out his idiocy. He knew what he was doing could get him killed. He made no effort to change his location to a more sensible nation.

    Guess what I think is dumb? Calling for his head to be chopped off because he believes in something else, that's ignorant.

    That?s nice.
  20. Espaldapalabras Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2005
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    And while it may be morally repugnant to you that a culture dare practice something you don?t agree with; it is still not your place to make judgments on their behaviors.

    Why the heck not? If we can't place "judgements" on the behaviors of others then your moral relativism will eliminate any sense of right or wrong, leaving everyone to do whatever they want. I agree with a lot of what E_S has said, and I think it is possible for us to find what they are doing as wrong and repugant and still understand why they think that way. According to your logic, we do not have a right to say that we find terrorism evil because in their culture it is a pratice that they find acceptable.

    You have to be able to look at the world in some kind of black and white perspective while allowing for gray areas. If you say everything is gray, that is the same as saying nothing is black.

    The middle east (and most Islamic countries) are still stuck in the middle ages, and we don't have to like it, but we can't expect them to catch up to us immediately either.

    I find it ironic that because it is muslims that are being intolerant we have to be tolerant of them, but if it were Christians that were going to kill an athiest you would have the same people crying bloody murder. Of course as a religious person, I understand how killing apostates would save them a lot of trouble. :p
  21. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    To a point, I agree Espalp. I feel the threat was disgusting but at least I try to understand how and why they got to that point.

    However, you're wrong on one point; Afghanistan is Central Asia, not the MidEast. ;) :D

    E_S
  22. Rogue_Follower Manager Emeritus

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    Nov 12, 2003
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    F_I_D: Would you support the death penalty for homosexuality, as some interpret from Muslem law?

  23. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
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    I think he's saying that he'd support the rights, however crazy, of states to adopt Shari'a...

    E_S
  24. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    Actually him being released based on a lack of evidence makes me more hopeful.

    After all, the premise is absurd, he is christian and was muslim, there is no question so what evidence could be lacking froma fundamentalist viewpoint?

    Despite what pressure was ertainly applied, the ruling of lack of evidence is still a Judicial ruling, which means it can act as guidance for future cases.

    Regardless though it is a split between the funamentalist view of islamic law and what is the law in Islamic Afgahnistan.

    Not a concrete sign, but a hopeful one.
  25. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
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    A lot of people have been misconstruing my points about this and other things. But if a society decides to adopt a specific set of laws that they believe to be right, then they may. However, should they decide to adopt American type laws then that's okay as well. I don't believe forcing political views on other nations, or even societal ones. It's detestable in the highest sense, but it's their right as people. And it's our right to refuse to have anything to do with them.
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