main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Lit No Imperial Sexism in the New Canon

Discussion in 'Literature' started by JABoomer, Jun 16, 2016.

  1. BigAl6ft6

    BigAl6ft6 Chosen One star 8

    Registered:
    Nov 12, 2012
    Science fiction and fantasy are genres where allegories about racisim and sexism can be told without having to make it an explicit point. Imperials looking down upon locals and alien species are ways to work in those ideas without the problematic notion of making them stated plot points. The fact that there's high ranking women in the First Order and Imperials gives them a bit of shading (and more fan event costume options!) instead of dragging in an antiquated notion like sexism as an easy way to make them "bad".
     
  2. Cheerios4u98

    Cheerios4u98 Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2015
    The new canon is filed with female Imperials. One thing that bugs me though is even though we're seeing tons of females play key roles in the Empire in the new canon, the book Smuggler's Run says this about Alicia Beck:

    "She was a woman--and there were very few of those holding high ranks in the Empire."

    Seems contradictory to what we've seen in the canon so far but whatever.
     
    SilentGuy66 likes this.
  3. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Bingo -- there's the liberty to not have to match real world histories and dynamics, while at the same time directly addressing them. You've got the ability to make it about the First Order killing civilians for harboring someone they consider a fugitive, or the New Republic wondering to what extent it can interfere in the politics of another state -- and you make people think really hard about those scenarios.

    In some ways that's even more interesting than just going the easy route, because the audience thinks of it in fictional terms and then already has the thought processes in effect to consider those issues in the real life context too.
     
    darklordoftech and BigAl6ft6 like this.
  4. SilentGuy66

    SilentGuy66 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 1, 2014
    It would have been good to have sexism in the empire then have the first order do away with it as sign how it means to improve on the empire's flaws
     
  5. Vthuil

    Vthuil Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Except, to all appearances, the "flaws" the First Order is "improving" on are the areas where they feel the Empire was too humane.
     
  6. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
     
    BigAl6ft6 likes this.
  7. SilentGuy66

    SilentGuy66 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 1, 2014
    Maybe there are thousands of high ranking women in the empire while there are millions of higher ranking men?
     
    Toonimator likes this.
  8. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Daala wasn't envisioned and presented, at least early on, as being a character that slept her way to the top. Quality of her presentation by KJA aside he intended her to be a very capable tactician who was held down due to her gender. It was pointed towards in his narrative as something that was very wrong with the Empire(as it is wrong in society) - so it was engaged.

    Very few, including yourself, give actual credit to Daala for her actual accomplishments when these topics come up.

    So yeah, I guess I'm going there. When you say Daala is a character who "allegedly slept her way to the top" you are fueling the fire. You are the audience and you are still running with it. The actual narrative from the Jedi Academy trilogy is that she was an excellent officer and tactician and that narrow minded male officers in the Empire viewed her as having slept her way to the top, when in fact she didn't, which is made explicitly clear in the books.
     
  9. JediMara77

    JediMara77 Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 5, 2004
    Then why have her be in a relationship with Tarkin at all? Why even have the other officers question her because of that?
     
  10. Robimus

    Robimus Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jul 6, 2007
    To highlight the problems with that POV and show the readers that it shouldn't be like that and that the Empire was wrong for allowing that to happen.

    Why is it OK to default to a fan created narrative of her character to describe her? Why is it OK to use her story arc as an example of why the Legends Empire actually really wasn't sexist at all? Because she made it all up in her head despite us getting first hand accounts the behavior?
     
  11. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    The way I remember it...

    -JAT establishes her relationship with Tarkin
    -JAT establishes sexist reasons for her not to have been promoted
    -the story that unfolds makes a strong case that she's not that great of a tactician

    Readers are then left to draw their own conclusions.

    But it's been almost twenty years; maybe I'm forgetting something.

    ETA: doesn't touch on the Tarkin angle, but here's some recent evidence re: KJA's thinking:

     
  12. GrandAdmiralJello

    GrandAdmiralJello Comms Admin ❉ Moderator Communitatis Litterarumque star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Nov 28, 2000
    Rob -- I appreciate that you feel the need to call me out, but the problem is that Daala, Isard, and Tavira all get the same rumor and just happen to be the highest ranked female officers we see in novels (as opposed to other sources). You can fixate on whether it's true or not, or whether the audience is connecting the dots -- that's not really the issue. The issue is that the writers saw fit to do this each time, doubtless thinking (see JM77's point about the 90s) that it was a positive portrayal. But it isn't really -- as evidenced by how it's colored the perception of these characters.

    You can put the blame on the audience if you like. That's fine, and I'd be the last to say that the fandom didn't deserve it. But that's really an ancillary issue. The main thing is that it's not a good situation and not a good look. Especially when Daala and Isard end up being woefully incompetent (Tavira's a different case because her whole story was that she wasn't actually an Imperial).


    Missa ab iPhona mea est.
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Sloane and Beck absolutely are badass. So is Ciena.

    I'm fine with the NEU as it is, not showing the Empire as particularly sexist, but it could be interesting to show a misogynist (*coughTarkincough*) interacting with these characters in that manner...and getting completely owned by them.
     
  14. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    I, uh, actually liked Tavira. [face_whistling]
     
  15. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012

    In Death Star, Tarkin at least thinks that Daala could have made it to the top without his help.

    And in the newcanon, he doesn't seem condescending toward Ciena and her ambitions.

    Maybe it's only Leia that Tarkin is condescending toward?
     
  16. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    And condescending =/= sexist. Leia is the only Rebel we see him interact with, there's no reason to think he'd be more respectful toward a man.
     
    ATimson and BigAl6ft6 like this.
  17. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I can't imagine him acting that way towards Han or Luke but I don't want to get in a big argument about it and drag the thread off topic either.

    Even if the misogynistic Imperial is a new character, it could be interesting, if done well, to see how the character interacts with someone like Sloane or Beck.
     
  18. CooperTFN

    CooperTFN TFN EU Staff Emeritus star 7 VIP

    Registered:
    Jul 8, 1999
    It should be like the one time Lando runs into a racist--like, "they still make you?"
     
    Kylun and anakinfansince1983 like this.
  19. Toonimator

    Toonimator Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 16, 2006
    He might have with Luke. His condescension towards Leia could be perceived as him treating her as a little girl. She's only 19, after all, and Han was snapping at Luke like he was a kid, too (which he was!). So had Prince Luke Organa been on the Death Star giving Tarkin lip, Tarkin probably would've been treating him like a boy in over his head. That's my take on it, anyway...
     
    La Calavera, Kylun, BigAl6ft6 and 2 others like this.
  20. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    Don't forget Han's remark about "female advice" in ANH after they get out of the garbage masher.
     
    La Calavera likes this.
  21. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Chosen One star 7

    Registered:
    Jan 5, 2011
    Well, even if the Empire isn't overtly sexist, you can still sneak a few things in here and there.

    Instead of something obvious, like literally putting Daala in the kitchen like they did, it could be more subtle. Instead of just saying it, they could leave it for us to catch.

    I'll try some examples, though I'm probably not the best source for this.

    You have the "cold *****" professional woman who is a "cold *****" even though she's only just as ambitious and "take charge" as any other man in a position of power.

    And, you know, you could take out the sexual relationship with the boss, and retain the suspicion of incompetence simply because she's a woman. She walks into a room, and a few of the men in that room immediately think she's not as good as this guy or that guy. You can have women constantly having to prove their competence, no matter how many times they've demonstrated it.

    You can have men and women working together...and for some reason the man gets the credit. "Good job, young man" *ignores woman*

    You can have men interrupting a woman while she is talking.

    You can show different reactions to emotions. Man expresses anger? Show him respect and deference. Woman expresses anger? Let's all roll our eyes at the hysterical woman.

    Then, of course, there's the whole kids thing. A man has kids? Congratulations! A real family man, we can depend on him now. A woman has a child? We can't depend on her anymore, she's going to be more focused on her kid. You can drop in a "so, when are you getting married?" Probably a less subtle example.

    You can flip it around and have men annoyed with having to do "women's work".

    Or you can go less subtle and have women naval officers fetching coffee and being mansplained to about how shields work.

    I don't think I'd tolerate stuff like "slut" and "whore" being bandied about, though. I'd criticize that quickly as just in very bad taste.
     
    anakinfansince1983 likes this.
  22. General_Leia_Organa

    General_Leia_Organa Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Feb 23, 2016
    I'm fond of the idea that a group can be filled with Men and Women alike who all joined for their own reasons, but ultimately believe in what they're fighting for. Even if what they're fighting for is awful. I see it enough in reality to not think it strange in the Empire or the First Order. You can believe in gender equality but also believe those who disagree with your principles deserved to be crushed.
     
  23. Jedi Ben

    Jedi Ben Chosen One star 9

    Registered:
    Jul 19, 1999
    So, it'll be Star Wars Blazing Saddles, Han and Lando on a backwards, arse-end of nowhere planet and Han saying to Lando...

     
    Kylun and PCCViking like this.
  24. Mistress_Renata

    Mistress_Renata Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 9, 2000
    Or, they do away with it because they can't afford not to. I rather like the idea that the OLD Empire (under Palpatine) limited their options to human men, so that non-humans (Thrawn) or women (Daala) had to really fight to make it to the top. The new Empire (First Order) is trying to gain the power that the Old Empire lost, so if they have female supporters or non-human supporters, they take advantage of that because they don't have the luxury of turning them away.
     
    JABoomer and SilentGuy66 like this.
  25. Ackbar's Fishsticks

    Ackbar's Fishsticks Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 25, 2013
    Me, too. She wasn't just another megalomaniacal warlord. She was a tier below that, just a pirate boss, but very good at what she did. She was able to subvert a sect of Force-users without even being Force-sensitive herself, which is impressive, and she was also able to hold together a whole bunch of different pirate, gangster, and smuggler factions, which speaks well for her leadership and political skills. And even after her organization's destroyed, she's never caught. She's okay in my book.
     
    CT-867-5309, Iron_lord and Kylun like this.