No Jonathan Hales for EP3

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by ParanoidAni-droid, May 20, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. hew Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 8, 1999
    star 4
    "And remember, Hales wrote SCORPION KING."

    Not that I like defending Hales, but his draft of The Scorpian King was thrown out by director Stephen Sommers, who started over from scratch because he wasn't happy with Hales' version.

    So you can't blame the Scorpian King's script on Hales.
  2. SithLegion Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2000
    star 2
    Darabont / Kasdan on Helping George with Ep I / II
    Fri, Sep 17, 99 12:15:20 PM EDT


    Frank Darabont spoke with Cinescape yesterday, in part about rumors that he would collaborate with Lucas on Episode II. Darabont doesn't think that will happen and that his involvement would be limited to reading the script and viewing a rough cut, as he did for Episode I. Darabont also suggests that fellow Young Indy writer Jonathan Hales may be approached to help. See the link above for the full story.
    Meanwhile, Eon Magazine spoke with Lawrence Kasdan (writer ESB and ROTJ) on movies trends, and had involvement with Episode I...

    "My opinion is that the right thing happened, which is that George made exactly the movie he wanted to make," Kasdan says. "And he has some vision of these three movies, and at the end of these three movies you'll be able to look back and say 'Well, I still don't think he was right about the first one,' or you'll say 'oh, I get it.' He asked me to write that movie and work on this trilogy, and I said 'no' for various reasons. Basically I thought he should do it. Because what happened on EMPIRE and JEDI was that between me and Irvin Kershner who directed EMPIRE and Richard Marquand who directed JEDI, George's relationship to the movies had gotten one step back. I thought he should take responsibility and make exactly the movie he wanted to make, and that's exactly what he did. And whatever people say about PHANTOM MENACE, you can't do business like that unless someone likes the movie. And there's never been a movie with a worse reception from the media that I can remember. And it's now done $400 million something in business in the United States, and it'll be a billion dollars worldwide. This is a case where, no matter what you thought personally of the movie, the media was waiting to kill it. And they couldn't even kill it." http://cgi.theforce.net/theforce/tfn.cgi?storyID=4081
  3. MadMardigan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 4
    I hate Kasdan's line of reasoning. TPM must be good. Just look at how much money it made.

    That's bull. Look at Tomb Raider, Planet of the Apes or a myriad of other blockbusters.

    Money doesn't equal quality.

    I don't know what Kasdan's apprehensions are about writing duties Ep3. On ESB and ROTJ maybe GL was 2 steps back. Not directing and not writing. But are you going to tell me that he had no control on shaping the visions of those two films? Of course not. It appears as if now GL desperately needs to give just a small portion of his control. He needs a Kasdan to help temper his vision.
  4. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    MadMardigan: You're misreading what Kasdan's saying. He's saying NO MOVIE could earn some 1 billion worldwide and be as universally hated as everyone seems to think MENACE is. The movies you've cited, TOMB RAIDER, PLANET OF THE APES, all grossed under $200 million domestic (I don't know what worldwide). His point is "The media wants you to think everyone hated the movie. But the numbers--which are the only measuring stick short of taking a person to person poll--don't back that up." Personally, I enjoyed a lot of MENACE and make no apologies for it. I also make no excuses for its many, many shortcomings. I've always been puzzled by this urban legend that EVERYONE hates it as I have friends who are casual STAR WARS fans who, perhaps, didn't think the movie was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but weren't overly offended by it. I think in the intervening years, many of the movie's detractors have been more vocal than the people who have enjoyed it, so its developed this reputation for being universally hated. I brought this up earlier in another thread, that the same thing was happening to CLONES. The critics who disliked the movie continue to write articles about how bad it is, while the critics who liked it have just let it go. After a while, attrition sets in and the perception will be that CLONES stinks, too. So I think Kasdan has a point. I especially loved his comment about how the media was lying in wait to kill MENACE and they still couldn't do it. I would go on to add that CLONES is their second turn at bat and EP 3 is their final swing. All gloves will be off on that one.

    And, again, Kasdan is a director now and I don't think he's done a For Hire Script in years. It's unreasonable to hope he'll return for EP 3. He's already gone on record that he thinks Lucas is going great without him. Why would he come back? He doesn't perceive any problems. He might be the worst person, as it sounds like he would just concede every disagreement to Lucas.

    FOOTNOTE: Chuck Russell directed SCORPION KING.
  5. Telemachos Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 2
    Here's a couple of fantastic articles with Kirshner and Kasdan, about working with Lucas:

    [link]http://www.salon.com/ent/col/srag/1999/05/13/kershner/index1.html[/link]

    [link]http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/printedition/calendar/la-000037428may28.story?coll=la-headlines-calendar[/link]
    Note: the LA Times requires a free registration

    Wait a sec, I've made a breakthrough discovery! The collaborators that will help Lucas all start their last names with a "K" -- Kirshner, Kasdan, Kurtz, Katz. And "K" is next to "L"... ;)

    Seriously, these interview/articles are great, and give a lot of insight into how much of each person's vision ended up on screen. Kirshner in particular had far more input than I previously thought.
  6. SithLegion Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 30, 2000
    star 2
    I hope Lucas get another writer, to help him.
  7. StarDude Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 28, 2001
    star 5
    No, Lucas has always had a clear picture of what Episode III would be like. I say leave it to him.
  8. Adali-Kiri Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    What amazes me is that so many people --- 1) attack Lucas for being too "wild" and needing someone to cage him in and redirect his vision, because he supposedly worked better under strict financial and technical limits back in the 70s, and then 2) attack him for putting too tight schedules and budgets and other limits on his new films...

    Am I the only one to detect the hypocrisy here...?
  9. Fearless_Leader Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2001
    star 1
    YES! You do detect hypocrisy!

    I know I've read a lot of film sites/articles that constantly berate movie studios for not giving filmmakers like Terry Gilliam enough time or money to bring their visions to life.

    Now we've got George, the most successful independant filmmaker ever (not to mention a director with the most spectacular sense of vision since the days of David Lean and Cecil B. Demille), who has NO limits except those set down by technology.

    On the one side, we've got people saying essentially, "Set the beast free" when it comes to everyone else but when it comes to George, the exact same people say, "Cage him up!"

    That is the clearest form of hypocrisy.
  10. Telemachos Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 2
    Nonsense, what we're suggesting is that Lucas can improve what he does (any director can) by realistically accepting what their weak points are as a filmmaker and welcoming strong criticism/input/colloboration from others to strength his work. That's true of ANYONE, not simply Lucas.

    There's a difference between forcing your mind to work creatively around a problem and throwing a ton of money at it -- when you see movies created by the second method, most times they fall short of movies created by the first.

    Art cannot be great unless it has a wall to push down, something to struggle against.
  11. Pooja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2002
    star 6
    No, Lucas has always had a clear picture of what Episode III would be like. I say leave it to him.

    Agreeing with you there is not a hard task, rest assured.
  12. MadMardigan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 4
    It's not a matter of "set the beast free" or "cage him up" but rather make the cage bigger or make the cage smaller.

    Lucas I think needs a slightly smaller cage. Not a shoebox. But just something a tad tighter than he has now.
  13. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    Fearless Leader:

    You can't make generic statements about hypocrisy when it comes to a discussion about filmmakers. It's just too vast a topic and there are always exceptions to any rule. At the end of the day, the material and the director's ability to translate it with respect and not self indulgence is what decides the success of the movie, not the budget or time. Often, movies that lack money and time turn out better than those that are allowed to run free. The perfect example is Michael Cimino, who had to make a tough, little movie called THE DEER HUNTER. Afterwards, he was given the keys to the kingdom (United Artists) and made HEAVEN'S GATE.

    For me, it's not a question of time and money, but comfort zones. Fear of failure. Lucas has lost that, whether its due to his vast personal fortune, his devoted following, or his age, he simply doesn't push himself as much as he did when he was doing GRAFFITTI or ANH. Given that STAR WARS has lost some of its public allure over the past four years, maybe he'll regain some of that grit. Whether he does it with 30 million budget or 130 mil. is irrelevant. It's about the man and what he's willing to commit to and how much he pushes himself.
  14. Cyan_Dawn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 1999
    star 4
    I'm sure the reason why Lucas isn't using a co-writer for III, is because he has a very clear vision of the film.
  15. Adali-Kiri Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Some of you guys need to consider the following ---

    Was Lucas a young and starving artist when he made The Empire Strikes Back and Raiders of the Lost Ark? No! Hardly when he made the original Star Wars, in fact - hot on the heels of the megasuccess of American Grafitti.

    And what do you think of these films?

    Ponder it and rethink the issue of comfort zones and success vs good or bad movies.
  16. MadMardigan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 4
    ESB=Kasdan+Lucas+Kershner = Fantastic
    Raiders=Spielberg+Kasdan+Lucas = Classic
    ANH = Lucas+heavy collaboration with Spielberg, Copolla, Milius, DePalma, Fox Executives, etc= Milestone

    ROTJ, SE's, And the PT= Lucas= We're not even talking same sport let alone ballpark of the films above.
  17. Boba_Phat Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2000
    star 4
    Umm, ROTJ was NOT all Lucas. There were meetings that took place between Lucas, Kasdan, Marquand, and Kazanjian. That was a total collaboration as much as Empire was.

    Another thing is that people always want Kasdan to return because of what he did with Empire, but always like to forget that he did Jedi also.
  18. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    It's not like Lawrence Kasdan's exactly tearing up the film world right now, himself. What was the last memorable film he made? What was the last film he made that even got a wide release? WYATT EARP?

    At this point, you'd think Kasdan WANTS to do another STAR WARS movie. After all, Frank Darabont's directing career took a hit after THE MAJESTIC and he's running back to the Ranch for Indy 4.

  19. Jedi Without a Cause Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2000
    star 2
    Well, MUMFORD is the last Kasdan film I can remember and you know what? I was still impressed with the guy's writing skills. The problem with Mumford was not the directing or the screenwriting but the premise. The concept was just too boring. Star Wars on the other hand already has a good premise so I'm sure Kasdan could do it well if he were to be hired. His next film is the adaption of Stephen King's DREAMCATCHER, which was a horrible book but maybe Kasdan'll make somethin of it.

    That's not to say that I think it's important that Lucas get a writing partner for episode III but it couldn't hurt. I mean I don't even care who it is really. Just as long as they come in and make the scenes start when they should and end when they should and cut out some of the rambling redundant dialogue in between. This is something actually that even most writers don't do. Cut as much from the end of the scene as you can, cut as much from the front of the scene that you can. Condense the middle as much as you can and get on to what happens next as quickly as you can.

    And then take a look at the dialogue. Are the people saying EXACTLY what they're thinking? If so, then change it around so it's not so on the nose. Don't say "I love you too" say "I know" those are the things GL has problems with and it's not just in the dialogue its in the structure of the script and the structure of individual scenes.

    Still, all in all what ULTIMATELY matters is the story and the plot which George wrote for all the rest of the sw films himself anyway so it wouldn't bother me TOO much if he left out the co-writer on this one.

    -JWAC
  20. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    JWAC,

    Yes. If I never see another Jedi introduced in a movie by standing in an elevator, I'll be happy. Lucas has a terrible habit of having characters walk in and out of a room, which is terribly theatrical. And he constantly has his actors saying EXACTLY what's on their minds. I could cite some examples, but there are just too many. If he hires a co-writer, hopefully it'll be someone who's ALL CHARACTER and doesn't focus much on story, which Lucas has down cold. I would say somenone like Robert Towne, but that's never going to happen, though Towne's a gun for hire now and he'd do it. Carrie Fisher's a good writer, but didn't she help on the MENACE script? That wasn't very good. I don't know who, but I think he needs someone.
  21. JBFett Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2002
    star 4
    JWAC,

    The "I know" line was not written by Kasdan, or written at all for that matter. Kasdan wrote the, "I love you too line"

    It was Harrison Ford who suggested that Han say "I know", in fact Carrie Fisher and Ford got into a huge heated arguement about it, saying that it makes Han an arrogant ba$tard. However, it was eventually given the OK by Kirschner and GL, who was on the set that day.
  22. Jedi Without a Cause Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2000
    star 2
    about the above: Well all I can say is ... I know.

    My only point was that LUCAS didn't write it. I think it's very telling that harrison came up with both the "I know" line in ESB as well as Indy shooting the swordsman in Raiders. Just proves how great he was/is. Sadly, there are a lot of internet quarterbacks who'd love to tear even Ford apart as an actor. These are the same people who rip on Lucas I'm afraid.

    -JWAC
  23. Adali-Kiri Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    MadMardigan;

    Your statement about Lucas' "heavy collaboration" with Spielberg, Coppola, Millius, De Palma, etc on ANH is in desperate need of some sort of source...

    I can't for the life of me figure out how AOTC's dialogue is any worse than ANH.
  24. MadMardigan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 4
    Adali-

    Read a biography on Lucas or watch the A&E biogrpahy for a source.

    Onto your point. Was the dialogue any worse in AOTC compared to ANH? That's really a judgement call but I would argue that AOTC had more lines drop to the ground like hardened turds than ANH.

    But all judgement aside, let's pretend the quality of the written lines is equal between AOTC and ANH. I would argue ANH had better actors saying them. Harrison, Carrie and Mark just seemed to have more life in their performances. Was what they were saying any better than AOTC? Maybe not. But I felt they said it better.

    Except for Ewan and McDiarmind, the only two actors in AOTC who gave a consistently good performance in AOTC.
  25. Jedi Without a Cause Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2000
    star 2
    See and now we've gotten off track. I guess it doesn't matter if Lucas uses Hales for ep3 as long as he drops Hayden and Nathalie. Is that about the gist of it?

    Personally I think that's silly. It's the TPM syndrome again. People are judging the whole PT based on 2/3 of the story. Nathalie is playing the role well. It's just that the CHARACTER of Padme is not as accessible as a Leia. Padme is an ice Queen who's starting to warm up. That's her arc. Hayden's arc is ALSO not the typical easily accessible hero character arc as Luke in the OT. Neither is obi-wan typical. And I don't think I have to mention that Palpatine is not your typical adventure movie villian.

    The story and characters are a little more complicated than they were in the OT, that's all. Even Harrison Ford'll tell you Han Solo is a fairly shallow character.

    That doesn't make him BAD, but neither do the complexities of the PT characters make them bad either.

    -JWAC
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.