No Jonathan Hales for EP3

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by ParanoidAni-droid, May 20, 2002.

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  1. Telemachos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 2
    Dialogue is a subjective thing, and I don't think that's the major problem with AOTC. I believe that Lucas put a great deal of effort into the script, but frankly a lot of the structural issues and ways scenes are dealt with (as Bresson mentioned) smack of lazy writing.

    There's a visual effects term for a shot partway through the production pipeline: "could be better" or CBB. It's used for a shot that's adequate, but could still be tweaked to make it better. Time permitting, the artists will go keep working on it. The screenplay for AOTC, IMHO, is a solid CBB -- it works moderately well but could have been refined to really be a powerhouse story.
  2. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    MadMardigan ---

    I've read biographies on Lucas without seeing much that points to "heavy collaboration". It doesn't seem to me to have been much different from the way they work these days. One example; Lawrence Kasdan was consulted as Lucas worked on the TPM script, as was Hales - who was set to pen the next script. I don't easily buy the convenient "it was so much more collaborative before" way of explaining whatever one thinks is lacking in the new films. See the Empire Magazine interview with Nick Gillard; "George would say 'But this is my thing', and we'd say 'We grew up on this **** - this is all of ours thing!'. I think collaboration is just as heavy now as ever. Unfortunately we will never know if TPM and AOTC would have been better (for some) IF Marcia or others had been involved. It's easy to assume it would, if you prefer the first couple of movies, but there are way too many factors in this game for that to be a given.

    Tele ---

    What are the problems you're talking about? Can you give us any exact scenes, or something?
  3. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    I completely agree with JWAC that the characters in the PT are more complicated than Luke, Leia, and Han. Even Obi Wan is more conflicted than in ANH. In those movies, the characters were more stereotypes of mythological characters: the young naive hero, the damsel in distress, the swaggering thief, the old wizard, the villain in black.

    In the PT everyone has greater complexity and depth. But that's why Lucas needs a good collaborator with him on these scripts. He himself has stated that he detests writing. One can speculate that he's not in a very excited mood when he writes, and probably, at some point, just accepts what he has rather than truly polishing it. So much of the dialogue and scene structure of the PT seems to remnants from early drafts that, given a better co-writer or more attention, could be made into truly dynamic scenes. (EXAMPLE: I will go to my grave saying that the adult Anakin SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN introduced to the audiences of the world standing in an elevator, sweating. He should have been doing something...anything!!!)

    I don't know who wrote what in EP 2, or how much input Hales had into the script, but I vote that he should not return. If he had any influence, it wasn't much better than MENACE. In some ways, given that MENACE dealt less with human emotions, that might have been a better script.

    Adali Kiri,

    I think there was much more collaboration in the early trilogy, simply given the fact that there were three Oscar winning editors involved, two separate directors, an Oscar nominated screenwriter, not to mention the folks at ILM. I believe Lucas had a lot of influence in those movies, but let's face it, he's internalized the PT more than he had before.

  4. Telemachos Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 2
    Adali-Kiri, I've mentioned the sections elsewhere, but roughly speaking, the whole romance is not handled as well as could be (I'm not referring to dialogue either). There is simply not much for Anakin or Padme to do while falling in love, and the story essentially grinds to a halt while they do so.

    Furthermore, Shmi's subplot came out of nowhere with very little setup and was resolved quite quickly. Yet arguably Shmi's death is the single most important moment in Anakin's life.

    IMHO, the middle chunk of the film could've been strengthened by expanding Anakin's search for his mom, removing the entire Naboo sequence (perhaps have their freighter go to Tatooine instead?) and have Anakin and Padme fall in love while he searches for information about his mother on Tatooine. This gives Anakin and Padme things to do, and opens up new opportunities of strengthening their characters through action while revealing their love for each other.
  5. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Telemachos;

    I know what you mean, but I don't think I agree. Imo, the plot with Shmi was very well introduced at the beginning of the film, with Anakin and Obi-Wan talking about his dreams. That was expanded upon on Naboo, and slowly built tension around the issue. I could feel that something was not right. Then with the arrival on Tatooine, we get more bad vibes in the meeting with Watto, and when Anakin finally finds the Lars family we get confirmation - something is terribly amiss. Imo, this part of the movie wasn't rushed at all. And only having SHmi in one very dramatic scene was a stroke of genius. I don't think it's too quickly resolved either. After her death we get 5 key scenes - the Tusken Slaughter, Yoda meditating in pain, Anakin returning with Shmi's body, Anakin's confession and Shmi's funeral.

    imo, this is one of the strongest and best written parts of the entire saga! :)
  6. Bresson Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2002
    star 3
    Adali Kiri

    I couldn't agree more. The Shmi sequences was the one genuinely emotional resonsant moment in CLONES. The way it was built up, with Obi quietly asking Anakin if he was still having bad dreams about his mother, to the final burial. The images and feelings rang true and did not feel rushed, at all. If Lucas had used this to wrap the entire love story around, instead of making them separate entities, it would have been a much stronger movie.

    Also, the acting is terrific in these scenes. Anyone who says the acting is unviersally awful must have been in the bathroom for twenty minutes while all this was happening.

  7. Imperial_Guard Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2002
    star 4
    As for the original topic of Hales not signing on for Episode III, could we see a quote? I'm not saying that it's not true, just that it's easy to say that I read in so-and-so magazine that this is going down when a) it is not true or b) the person's memory is playing tricks on them or they misinterpret something. Assuming this is legit, just because Hales is not on the project doesn't mean GL won't enlist the help of another writer and it doesn't necessarily mean that GL wasn't pleased with Hales either. There could be hundreds of reasonable explanations for Hales not signing on. I don't think a co-writer could hurt considering all the plot threads dangling around. From a writing perspective, Episode III will be the most challenging by far and GL is asking for a burnout especially if Indy IV is also on his plate. Finally, I share the confusion of previous posters in saying that isn't the three year gap between films the same? So how can there be more time now than after the release of TPM?
  8. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Bresson;

    Agreed, but personally I find it very logical that the love story would start developing on Naboo. The Jedi won't allow Anakin to go home and see his mother, and I think it's great writing that he finally snaps under the pressure of his dreams and leaves Naboo and abandons his priority mission. It wouldn't be as emotionally strong if they just happened to come to Tatooine by chance. It's important that this is Anakin's choice and not coincidence, so to speak.

    Later the love story develops around the tragic events on Tatooine (probably the movie's AND the saga's true point of no return), and during the first battle of the Clone Wars. This is great writing, imo, so the admittedly cheesy Naboo sequence doesn't bother me. Apart from Portman's stiff acting...I thought she really didn't give the new guy much help there...

    And I agree that the acting in the Tatooine sequence is world class! The whole sequence there is slowly turning into my fave sequence in the entire saga so far. The writing is good, the direction is inspired, and the acting is excellent. Not to mention the music - from the haunting Force Theme turning into Duel of the Fates, to the ominous Emperor's Theme playing during Anakin's confession. Lucas actually sinks the movie below the darkness of TESB, and I can't wait for Episode III.
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