'No, there is another' - Another perspective...

It was Leia. Without someone to confront Vader, there is no one left to get Vader away from the darkside. Hence-no hope without the Skywalker twins.

 

Here are my thoughts, most of them has been explained though:
The idea that Luke should destroy Vader makes no much sense, for
1) even if Luke succeeds, the emperor still remains and he is even more dangerouis than Vader, so it's hard to believe that Luke could do this (especially after watching the prequels)
2) someone killing his own father sounds not very lightside-like, whether this particular father evil or not (may I refer to the emperor's words in ROTJ)
It seems to be a really stupid plan even after seeing all that stupidity in PT.
So while it might be meant that way, I used to think the plan was Vader's redemption.
In this case Vader being the last hope makes still more sense than Leia. If Luke fails do redeem Vader, it isnt any more believable that Leia can redeem him than that he can be redeemed any other way, but at least he is the choosen one, so he's meant to bring balance to the Force. I mean thereS a level of faith, when one is able to hope that things turn out allright, even it seems to be impossible. So, maybe Yoda's faith in the Force (and the Prophecy) is strong enough that he still has hope in Anakin.
SW is full of obscure statements and they work magically: every new piece of information corresponds to some of them and contradicts to others, so fans have to find the most believable theory for themselves

 

DarthBane77, Leia is not a hope AT ALL, because OB1 and Yoda didn't believe in her and wouldn't care to train her. The only "hopes" are Luke and Anakin. Luke is the "New Hope", Anakin is the "Last Hope".

ShaakRider, you are correct. Very good post.

 

>>>"Apparently"?? I still can't understand what has this to do with the discussion.

At the time of writing ESB, the "other" from the line of dialogue "No, there is another" was not referring to Leia, because she wasn't going to be Luke's sister in the four sequels that were planned at the time. It was referring to a character that was planned to survive Star Wars III.

It relates to this discussion because there is documented evidence that this is what the "other" was referring to when Empire Strikes Back was made- not Leia.

Taking in the PT and it's prophecy, Anakin is the ONLY hope for the galaxy, but Luke's appearance was the "new hope", in that he was someone who had the potential to bring Anakin back from the Dark Side in order to fulfil the prophecy.

 

That is interesting SomeRandomNerd, but the statements in ANH and ESB were sufficiently broad to allow Lucas to change and develop the story in ways he may have not intended at first. The lines in Anh about Luke's father are sufficiently broad to allow Lucas to either keeping Anakin and Vader separate characters or the same. The same is w/ the "there is another" line in ESB. It may have been the original intention to have this be a completely new character to appear in the final trilogy. However, Lucas scrapped this concept. I believe one of the reasons he did so was because he wanted to make the saga about Anakin's redemption. In all the conceptions that Kurtz talks about for the "original" Ep VI and the VII-IX trilogy, Vader seemed to be a minor character and the redemption either didn't happen or it was very minor to the plot. I think Lucas changed his mind on what he wanted the saga to be. The plot at this point, after ESB, could go in several different directions. I think he decided to go w/ the redemption, make this the centerpiece of the saga, and at that point this broad line, "there is another" became a reference to Anakin. This I think is especially true w/ Lucas' decision to not only make the PT but also in some of the plot points of the PT. The purpose of the PT was to show Anakin's history, his fall, and the fact that Anakin was the chosen one and had a destiny to bring balance to the force, which he finally fulfills in ROTJ. Whatever that line was originally intended in 1980 when ESB was made, has changed and evolved w/ the story and I think now intends to refer to Anakin (I think it has been the case since 1983, but at the very least since 1999 w/ TPM).

 

I always figured he meant Leia.

 

Your wrong J. Anakin is no hope. According to the Jedi codes, those at the darkside are not to be trusted nor a "hope" where other Jedi subsist. Luke was the new and last hope. Anakin no longer existed. The only point when Anakin did exist was at the end of ROJ, yet this line was spoken beforehand. There was no belief in either of the two Jedi masters in Ani's redemption, otherwise the weight wouldn't have fallen on Luke to kill him.

"Yoda spoke of another....."

"The other Yoda spoke of was your twin sister..."

They were talking about when Yoda said: there is another Skywalker and when he had said...."no....there is another."

Vader and Anakin are not the same and Ani didn't return until the plot was nerely finished. Anakin was not the other. It was Luke and Leia who were the "hopes". That is why Luke talked to Leia about"also possesing the gift."

 

SomeRandomNerd, then you are actually supporting my theory!! (I thought you were disagreeing)

SLR, once again, I agree.

 

DarthBane77, let me clarify this one more time. These are two totally different conversartions. LUKE DID NOT HEAR YODA SAYING "NO, THERE IS ANOTHER"!! I'm concerned about the dialogue in ESB.

 

"Anakin no longer existed. The only point when Anakin did exist was at the end of ROJ, yet this line was spoken beforehand."

It makes no sense. The only reason Anakin could show up at the end was that he was present all the time. You cannot redeem someon doesnt exist.

edit: how do you know what the Jedi code says about who can be a hope? And how do you know Yoda didnt revise the Jedi code during his 20+ years of seclusion? The Jedi made far enough mistakes to learn from.

 

I think Anakin is the Jedi of the title "Return of the Jedi", but I don't hink he is the other. As has been said - in ESB the filmmakers assumed it was Luke's sister (not Leia). Then when writing ROTJ Lucas decided to combine elements and make Leia his sister.
Okay, now I know it's open to interpretation but if Anakin is the other hope, then what are you saying - that Yoda thinks if Luke gets himself killed then Anakin will somehow come out of the Emperor's spell for some other reason?
I don't think Yoda has much faith that Anakin can be redeemed, he tells Luke "once you start down the dark path forever will it dominate your destiny." I don't think he believed anyone could come back from the dark side.
That's why Luke is the hero, he proves them all wrong, and he does redeem his father.
Without Luke (or maybe Leia) Anakin could not be redeemed.
And besides - if Anakin is the last hope then what's Leia? She'd have to be the 2nd last hope. It doesn't really add up.

gez

 

"Anakin no longer existed. The only point when Anakin did exist was at the end of ROTJ, yet this line was spoken beforehand."

Only from the point of view of Anakin and Obi-wan. Yoda and Luke believed otherwise, and Luke proved otherwise to Anakin himself. Don't confuse belief with fact.

"It makes no sense. The only reason Anakin could show up at the end was that he was present all the time. You cannot redeem someon doesnt exist."

See above.

"how do you know what the Jedi code says about who can be a hope?"

"Hope" and "Chosen One" are not official Jedi nomenclature. The council doesn't even talk about it. As far as the movies show, only Yoda and Mace know of the Prophecy in the PT (though I would include Jocasta Nu), and Yoda and Obi-wan know in the OT.

 

gezvader28
That's exactly what I thought when watched the movies first time. That Y&B wanted Luke to kill Vader but he proved them wrong. And also thought Leia was the another hope (though I never liked the idea Luke has a sister). I guess that was Lucas' intention.
Then I started to think about it, tried to reconstruct that world for myself and since then I just cannot accept than they wanted such a thing.
Probably Lucas didn't mean SW to be something realistic/believable, something to think about that much and analyze the dialogue line-by-line. I'd say most of the dialogue is a very well constructed hocus-pocus: it provides a certain atmosphere and shows the main directions of the story, gives all hints the audience needs, and also is flexible enough to endure the frequent and tremendous changes of Lucas' conception. It's a great story and fun as long as one doesn't go into details. I think when fans - including me - try to build up the whole universe based on the movies, they treat SW as something it isn't. But it's just too tempting and too much fun
In fact, when I watch SW as something about the SW universe the 'another' is Anakin for me. When I watch it as just a movie, it's rather Leia. I just do the first usually.

 

I'm not taking anything away from Anakin, what he does is noble and selfless. But Luke, for me, is the one who brings him back,

And also IF Anakin is the other then what does that make Leia? The other other?
But I don't think anyone is WRONG to interpret this the way they want. But this is my interpretation and my reasons.

gez

 

Leia is just a politician and no hope at all. Yoda and OB1 would never train her as a Jedi. Had Luke failed, there was nothing Leia could have done and the galaxy would be doomed forever. Leia is just a supporting character.

 

Interesting that Yoda held very similar opinions about Anakin's importance.

 

Yoda initially disagreed with the training of Anakin. However, seeing that it was inevitable (and realising that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One) he felt that he was the only one capable of destroying tha Emperor.

(all IMHO)

 

"However, seeing that it was inevitable (and realising that Anakin was indeed the Chosen One) he felt that he was the only one capable of destroying tha Emperor.
(all IMHO)"

I guess so, because this hasn't been shown yet.

 

"The other Yoda spoke of is your twin sister."

Obi-Wan

 

"The other Yoda spoke of is your twin sister."

Obi-Wan

This doesn't prove that it was Leia that Yoda was talking about in ESB's "there is another" quote. This is so for two reasons. 1) Luke was not present for this statement in ESB (he had already left Dagobah). Luke's inquiry to Ben was based on Yoda's statement in ROTJ that there was another Skywalker. 2) It also only shows at most that Ben did not think that Anakin was the other. It does not show what Yoda thought. Ben may have felt that all hope was lost w/ Anakin. The discussion in ESB, I think, was not showing that Ben did not know about Leia. I think it shows that there was a debate b/w Ben and Yoda over whether Anakin could be redeemed or not.

 

People please read the previous posts before you post. There are two totally different and independent conversations.

 

Jimkk29-

"It's not in Yoda's character to kill. Yoda never asked anyone to kill another."

Yoda never told anyone to NOT kill anyone either.

Killing is not forbidden in the Jedi Order or else none of the Jedi would be carrying lightsabers, Obi-wan would have been killed by Darth Maul, Mace Windu wouldn't do anything against Jango Fett, and all the Jedi in the arena would be dead already.

Yoda sees that Obi-wan has killed Darth Maul and what does he do??? He promotes Obi-wan to the level of Jedi Knight just for the fact that he sees Maul's death as Obi-wan passing the trials and when he sees that Count Dooku is behind the assassination attempts on Amidala and is leading a Seperatist Movement, he tells Mace Windu that Dooku must be stopped before he rallies more planets to the Seperatists' cause so how's he to do that??? By going over his dead body, if necessary and Yoda was about to deliver on that part had Dooku not distracted him when he endangered Anakin and Obi-wan's lives by dropping a giant pillar on them.

Finally, Yoda didn't want Anakin to be trained because he felt that Anakin would pose a threat to the Jedi and we see that he was right so there's no way he would consider Anakin as the "other hope" after what he has done to the Jedi, to the universe, and pledging his alliegence to the Sith.

"Leia is not a hope AT ALL, because OB1 and Yoda didn't believe in her and wouldn't care to train her."

Yoda: The Force runs strong in your family. Pass on what you have learned.

Obi-wan: The Emperor knew as I did that if Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anomonous.

I think judging from these quotes, Yoda and Obi-wan did believe in her and wanted Leia to be trained but they couldn't take the risk of letting Vader and the Emperor know about BOTH Luke and Leia because if they do, V & E would kill one of them and converted the other to the Dark Side which destroys any chances Yoda and Obi-wan had of eliminating the Sith.

Once Luke discovered that Leia is his sister, even he believed that she is the last hope in case Luke failed:

Luke: If I don't make it back, you're the only hope for the alliance.
Leia: Luke, don't talk that way. You have a power...I don't understand. I could never have.
Luke: Your wrong, Leia, you have that power too. In time, you'll learn to use it as I have.

If Yoda and Obi-wan believed that there's still hope that Anakin can turn back to the Light Side, they could've told Luke about it instead of leaving cryptic messages that suggest that Anakin/Vader has to die.

That kind of information is too vital for them to not tell Luke about it.

Mebejedi-

"Only from the point of view of Anakin and Obi-wan. Yoda and Luke Believed otherwise, and Luke proved otherwise to Anakin himself."

Luke, I might agree with but I'm not so sure about Yoda because he doesn't seem like he share's Luke's point of view.

SLR-

Another Skywalker with the same force powers as Luke and Anakin would make him/her the other "hope".

 

"It's not in Yoda's character to kill. Yoda never asked anyone to kill another."

"Yoda never told anyone to NOT kill anyone either."

That's hardly proof. He let Dooku live. He obviously let Vader and Palpatine live, assuming he has any kind of encounter with them in Ep.III. What Yoda is capable of, is letting others sacrifice themselves when its necessary, especially after letting Dooku get away while trying to save Ben and Anakin (which would explain his change of heart in ESB, telling Luke to let his friends die for the cause. Yoda, in his mind, could have ended the Clone Wars right there.)

"Killing is not forbidden in the Jedi Order or else none of the Jedi would be carrying lightsabers"

"The Force is used for knowledge and defense, never attack."

Jedi are allowed to defend themselves. They don't go around "looking for fights", as your post would suggest.

"Yoda sees that Obi-wan has killed Darth Maul and what does he do??? He promotes Obi-wan to the level of Jedi Knight just for the fact that he sees Maul's death as Obi-wan passing the trials"

Killing Darth Maul isn't what earned Obi-wan his status. "Wars not make one great", remember? ? Besides, didn't you consider the fact that it might have been a council decision? Yoda's been over-ridden more than once. Yoda didn't want Anakin to be trained, yet the council, showing respect by having Qui-gon's dying wish granted, gives Obi-wan the Jedi Knight status so that he is in a position to train Anakin - all against Yoda's wishes!

"he tells Mace Windu that Dooku must be stopped before he rallies more planets to the Seperatists' cause so how's he to do that???"

So what's the logic here? Are you saying he's telling Mace to kill Dooku, because I certainly didn't hear that. Yoda's orders clearly reflected a rescue attempt - "around the survivors, a perimeter make." The subsequent battle involved battle droids and automated ships, so there's no murder going on there.

Even Mace didn't try to kill Jango when he had the chance, with a lightsaber to his neck. Where do you get this logic that the Jedi are out to kill people?

"Finally, Yoda didn't want Anakin to be trained because he felt that Anakin would pose a threat to the Jedi and we see that he was right so there's no way he would consider Anakin as the "other hope" after what he has done to the Jedi, to the universe, and pledging his alliegence to the Sith."

"Only from the point of view of Anakin and Obi-wan. Yoda and Luke Believed otherwise, and Luke proved otherwise to Anakin himself."

"Luke, I might agree with but I'm not so sure about Yoda because he doesn't seem like he share's Luke's point of view."

Problem is, either Yoda really isn't sure what the actual fulfillment of the Prophecy will be (my theory), or he does know, but can't divulge too much information to Luke (a la The Matrix - "A difference between knowing the path, and walking the path.") If Luke knew everything, there's a risk that Vader or the Emperor would read his thoughts, as they did about Leia, and everything would be ruined.

 

Obi-Wan wasn't promoted to knight for killing Maul, but for rather how he handled himself in confronting Maul. He was able to cool his emotion and remain calm and poised when dealing w/ Maul. Even after Maul killed QGJ. Obi-Wan was able to recompose himself and use the force to come up w/ a way to defeat Maul, rather than lashing out at of hatred and anger. That is why Yoda promoted OBi-Wan to knight: for his calm, patience and composure during a stressful situation.

 

PMT99, MeBeJedi was quicker than me and answered to your post.

"If Yoda and Obi-wan believed that there's still hope that Anakin can turn back to the Light Side, they could've told Luke about it instead of leaving cryptic messages that suggest that Anakin/Vader has to die."

OK, first of all I never said that OB1 still believed in Anakin. I'm talking exclusively about Yoda. And, additionally, had Yoda told Luke everything, then he would most likely have failed.

"That kind of information is too vital for them to not tell Luke about it."

Remove the "not" and your sentence is correct.