'No, there is another' - Another perspective...

Also, Yoda not mentioning this to Luke was also a plot device for the audience. If Yoda told Luke there was still good in Anakin and that he could be redeemed, this would have made the ending of ROTJ less meaningful. W/ the respect the audience has for Yoda, we would have expected Vader to turn at the end. W/o hearing Yoda's thought, it enhances the dramatic tension of the ending for the audience, because we are never really sure until the last possible minute that Vader is going to turn and help Luke.

 

Yes, very correct. I hadn't thought about that.

 

"He let Dooku live."

Only because Dooku put Anakin and Obi-wan in danger and Yoda was forced to save them but that still didn't mean he would let Dooku live.

"He obviously let Vader and Palpatine live, assuming he has any kind of encounter with them in Ep. III."

With the odds stacked in their favor, I don't think Yoda had any choice because he wasn't going to get himself killed squaring off against Vader, the Emperor, and the entire imperial starfleet knowing that the Jedi order needs to be ressurrected and he has to stay alive to train Luke and/or Leia.

"What Yoda is capable of, is letting others sacrifice themselves when its necessary, especially after he let Dooku get away while trying to save Ben and Anakin(which would explain his change of heart in ESB, telling Luke to let his friends die for the cause. Yoda, in his mind, could have ended the Clone Wars right there.)"

Letting others to sacrifice themselves wouldn't make any difference because even if Yoda defeated Dooku and left Anakin & Obi-wan to die, he would be pitying himself for eternity and Palpatine would've found another way to eliminate the Jedi, create the Empire, and gained dominance over the universe. Even if Luke decided to sacrifice his friends, he still would have gotten himself killed just like what almost happened to him in ROTJ. Being a hero requires you to save people's lives and to rely on others to help you get out of sticky situations which is what the Jedi do.

They didn't earn the title "Gaurdians of peace and justice in the galaxy" for nothing.

" "The force is used for knowledge and defense, never attack."

Jedi are allowed to defend themselves. They don't go around "looking for fights", as your post would suggest."

But the fights always come to them and people take the quote you posted way too literally. Just because the Jedi don't use the force for attack doesn't mean they're forbidden to fight.

Defense can sometimes require you to kill but only when the situation is completely out of your hands.


"Wars not make one great, remember?"

We've heard Qui-Gon and Mace say the Jedi are peacekeepers, not soldiers but that didn't mean they're going to sit around doing nothing about it.

They would be out there preventing any wars from happening.

"Are you saying he's telling Mace to kill Dooku, because I certainly didn't hear that. Yoda's orders clearly reflected a rescue attempt-"around the survivors, a perimeter make." "

I'm talking about after the rescue attempt where the Clone Wars is happening. I'm not sure the exact quote but Yoda said to Mace, "Dooku must be stopped! If he escapes, rally more systems to his cause, he will". The only ways they can end the Clone Wars is either capturing Dooku or to kill him.

"Where do you get this logic that the Jedi are out to kill people?"

I'm not saying the Jedi are out to kill people, I'm saying if a situation is beyond their control, then a Jedi is required to kill if necessary and since Vader and the Emperor have total control of the universe for the past 20 years, Yoda and Obi-wan sees no other way to put an end to that but through V & E's deaths.

Why put so much faith in Luke if they believed that Anakin/Vader can still be saved and fulfill the prophecy?

"If Luke knew everything, there's a risk that Vader or the Emperor would read his thoughts, as they did about Leia, and everything would be ruined."

But if Luke knows nothing, then there's no gaurantee that he would survive against Vader and the Emperor. He would either be killed or become the next Sith Lord and everything would still be ruined.

jimkk29-

"Remove the "not" and your sentence is correct. "

I'd rather leave the "not" in the sentence.

SLR-

The only way that Lucas and Marquand can prevent the audience from knowing that Vader would turn back to the light side is to make Yoda believe that it wasn't possible. Having him say, "Once you start down the dark path, forever it will dominate your destiny" does not suggest that Yoda still had h

 

Wow... that's a big post PMT99!!

"but that still didn't mean he would let Dooku live."

I don't think he would kill Dooku. His goal was to disarm him and learn his intentions.

"The only ways they can end the Clone Wars is either capturing Dooku or to kill him."

Capture, not kill.

"But if Luke knows nothing, then there's no gaurantee that he would survive against Vader and the Emperor. He would either be killed or become the next Sith Lord and everything would still be ruined."

Remember, the fewer Luke knows, the better for his mission. Had Luke known everything, he would have succumbed to the dark side.

"because that would allow Anakin to realise that Padme was still alive when she gave birth to them"

OK, btw a woman HAS to be alive in order to give birth. Additionally, how do you know when and if Padme dies and if Anakin knows about it? Anakin could as well turn to the dark side even knowin that Padme is still alive. There are plenty of reasons that Anakin turned to the dark side, not just Padme.

 

Regarding "to kill or not to kill": I think it's about confrontation rather than killing. They have to face problems and to confront persons causing the problems, and solve the situation the best they can. So I guess they prefer not to kill anyone, but sometimes it seems to be unavoidable (e.g. Maul). The question is, when does one say it's unavoidable, depends on POV. Remember, Yoda said just 'confront', not even 'fight' and especially not 'kill'. It suggests that he at least wasn't completely sure that Vader shoul be killed. Ben, apparently, was pretty sure that he should be, and Luke was sure that he shouldn't.
Plus if Luke would go to Vader with the intention to kill him, wasn't that an attack? Though the rebellion is in a defensive position, that particular move would be an act of agression, I think. Its also POV, I guess.

 

"Only because Dooku put Anakin and Obi-wan in danger"

They were in danger before Mace got there. Mace's appearance, if anything, prolonged their survival by a few minutes. There was really nothing keeping Dooku from having them killed, just as there was nothing keeping Dooku from having Mace killed.

"Yoda was forced to save them but that still didn't mean he would let Dooku live."

Doesn't mean he would kill Dooku either. At this point, you are projecting your own personal motivations onto those of the characters. No Jedi the SW films attacks without provocation, except for Anakin. Prove otherwise, or drop it.

"Just because the Jedi don't use the force for attack doesn't mean they're forbidden to fight."

I'm sorry? At what point did I say that? You are misreading my post. Stop going to extremes.

"even if Yoda defeated Dooku and left Anakin & Obi-wan to die, he would be pitying himself for eternity and Palpatine would've found another way to eliminate the Jedi"

You assume that Yoda knew about Palpatine! Yoda was not thinking "I should save Obi-wan and Anakin, because Dooku is just a messenger-boy for Palpatine, and he'll find another way to start a war." The whole point of the PT is that Palpatine is fooling everyone! As far as Yoda and the Jedi Council knew, Dooku was organizing everything. Logically, taking him out would have stopped the war, in their minds.

You forget that the audience is privy to far more information than the characters are.

"Being a hero requires you to save people's lives and to rely on others to help you get out of sticky situations which is what the Jedi do.

They didn't earn the title "Gaurdians of peace and justice in the galaxy" for nothing."

Interesting argument, since that's exactly what Yoda did, and yet everything you've said about Yoda contradicts this action.

" We've heard Qui-Gon and Mace say the Jedi are peacekeepers, not soldiers but that didn't mean they're going to sit around doing nothing about it."

Again, I never said they would. Who, exactly, are you responding to? ?

There's a range between "doing nothing" and "killing all the bad guys". The Jedi are nowhere near the opposite extreme that you are. This is what I mean by projecting your personal motivations. You are ignoring everything the Jedi stand for.

"They would be out there preventing any wars from happening."

They are. It's called "talking with the separatists." This was also shown in TPM, when Qui-gon and Obi-wan were sent to Naboo. Perhaps you feel those two were sent to end the Federation blockade with their lightsabers rather than their diplomatic skills?

All I have to say is "Two fighters against a star-destroyer?"

"I'm saying if a situation is beyond their control, then a Jedi is required to kill if necessary and since Vader and the Emperor have total control of the universe for the past 20 years, Yoda and Obi-wan sees no other way to put an end to that but through V & E's deaths."

But Yoda does feel out of control, yet he does none of the things you expect him to do. Do you see the problem here? Right or wrong, The actions of Yoda and the Council reflect their beliefs, and Palpatine planned on exactly this. How many movies have you seen where good guys are taken advantage of by bad guys because they have higher morals guiding their actions!? This is a common theme in thousands of films.

The Jedi never expected a full-out war until it was too late, so this was never a motivation for them. Again, you base your judgements on facts that are not known by the characters. As far as Yoda knew, Dooku's plans were stopped when the Clonetroopers arrived and took out the Geonosian factories. Since the Separatist's means of waging war have been halted, there'd be no point to killing Dooku!

What Yoda will come to see in hindsight is that either way, Dooku was not the person they should have been going after. A m

 

Great post MeBeJEdi.

I would just add the following points. There are numerous possible reasons why Yoda and Ben would keep the knowledge of the twins from Anakin/Vader. One is that Anakin was probably at his most evil after his turn (he tried to kill his own "father" figure). He was also severly maimed by Obi-Wan. Listening to him or Yoda at that point was probably not going to happen. Secondly, I think Anakin was at his most subservient stage to Palps after his turn. I think they thought there was a good chance that if Anakin knew of the twins, that he might turn them over to Palps. Thirdly, I think that Yoda understood the importance of time. Anakin needed time to understand the severity of his actions. He needed to see how bad of a mistake he made. I don't view Vader as strong as others do. I think Vader of the OT is a broken, shattered man. He is a middle aged man that knows he f'd up his life. He feels a sense of hopelessness: that he was stuck w/ his bad decision. There was no turning back and no redemption in his mind. Yoda knew that time would beat down Anakin and he would learn of his mistakes and regret him. It was Luke's unconditional love and acceptance that made Anakin believe that he could atone for his mistakes and make amends.

 

"I don't view Vader as strong as others do. I think Vader of the OT is a broken, shattered man. He is a middle aged man that knows he f'd up his life. He feels a sense of hopelessness"

Agreed.

Vader - "It is too late for me, my son."

 

Great posts, MeBeJedi and SLR!

 

I've asked the Jedi council at the OS about the thread's main topic, but they didn't answer me, of course...

 

That probably because it's likely to be covered in Ep.III.

 

In that case, it would be very interesting!

 

Well?? ?

 

I don't think all the ups are necessary after discussion has tapered out.

 

Ok, sorry.

 

I watched ROTJ and ESB recently, and I watched very carefully 'cause this was the first time I saw the non-SE version since I was 8-9. The point is, I found a new evidence against my theory:

Yoda says "Unexpected this is, and unfortunate..."
"...Unfortunate that you rushed to face him... that incomplete was your training. Not ready for the burden were you."
Also Luke says "Well, I'm sorry." - like something went wrong...

Why does Yoda say that? This always bothered me, but never sufficiently to make me think about it. After all, Luke faced the truth and managed to handle it wihtout turning to the DS. He got rid of his hatred and managed to see the good in his father. So there should be nothing unfortunate, except if that wasn't the goal. If I want this to make sense, the only interpretation I can think of is, that he wanted Luke to destroy, even knowing that he is his father, but "unfortunately" Luke wasn't ready for this burden.

Also Yoda's overall acting doesn't sugggest that he has much hope in Anakin, I'd say he accepts Luke's feelings, has the faith Luke will make the right decision, whatever will that be, but personally doesn't really think redeeming Anakin could work. So I'm not quite sure right now, that he'd refer Anakin as 'another' when even Luke did not intend to save him. Well, since historically it's a reference to a non-existing character, it's hard to apply it whether to Vader or Leia

(OB1 definitly thinks Luke should kill Vader, I always hated that even more than POV)

 

I think Yoda says that because he's chastising Luke for going before he was fully ready. Yoda might have been a little annoyed that Luke risked his life (the Jedi's last hope} so recklessly. Things could have turned out much worse than they did. Luke was lucky to only have lost his hand. He could have accepted Vader's offer, and lost his soul.

 

Yoda meant that Luke wasn't ready for anything. He couldn't kill Vader, but he couldn't turn Vader to the light either.

 

I want to refer back to one of the earlier posts. It concerns why Yoda didn't teach Luke how to use force lightning.

Sure we know that Yoda knows how to block force lightning now. But as we the audience back then had no clue that a Jedi was capable of this or even Yoda for that matter. If lucas had this in mind all along then yes it is safe to speculate why Yoda didn't teach Luke this knowing that he would eventually might have to face the emperor.

Jag29

 

I agree. MeBeJedi is right on.

Sound interpretations being made.

 

It is safe to say that all of us tend to reach sometimes to justify our views. Twisting a quote or bending a line to suite ourselves. It is fun to speculate and to see everything from a different point of view.

Nice topic jimkk29

Jag29

 

I always accept and respect different opinions, as long as they are sufficiently justified and well developped. I created this thread in order to discuss, not to impose my opinion on others. Many quotes provoke different, although interesting interpretations.