"No, there is another" ...

I've always assumed Yoda was talking about Leia, though after reading another thread I just had a thought: Is there any chance he is refering to Anakin? Obi-Wan is pretty consistent and emphatic that Anakin is dead and only Vader lives, Yoda seems to exhibit a similar thinking, but seems to know more/less emphatic. The scene where the titled quote is uttered by him shows this. (also his "unexpected" response to Vader telling Luke who his father is could perhaps influence such a statement) Though overall, it seems that Yoda is of the opinion that Anakin is dead forever and can never come back his, "...forever will it dominate you," (or roughly along those lines) quote about never turning back from the dark side of the force seems to re-enforce that. Would that exclude any possibility of him refering to Anakin? It seems that Luke is the only one who believes Anakin lives in any amount and can come back. Does this idea that Yoda is perhaps thinking of Anakin carry any weight at all?

--I didn't see a similar thread anywhere, if there is, if one of the mods would point me to it, I would appreciate it.

 

One thing is for sure: it is informative dialogue put there for the benefit of the audience.
Obi-Wan knows of the other but the audience did not. Lucas wanted the 1980 audience to believe that there was really a chance Luke would die or turn to the dark side while fighting Vader hence "the other". The idea was that a 1980 audience would be more captivated if they believed Luke was in real danger in "The Empire Strikes Back" and Lucas attempted to pull this off by saying that Luke was expendable because his mentors are basically telling the audience that the galaxy is not really that dependent on Luke and that there is someone else out there that can take Luke's place.

To me, there's really not a lot of fat in Star Wars dialogue. The deeper meaning of Star Wars is conveyed through the visuals not the dialogue.

To me, Obi-Wan and Yoda see Anakin as forever lost to the dark side until they watch him save his son, so to me, Obi-Wan and Yoda are saying Leia is the other in "The Empire Strikes Back".

 

By the end of ESB when Luke and lil' sis are doing ESP, I thinks it's clear.

 

It's clear it's Leia. ROTJ

Leia: "You have a power I could never have."



Luke: ......"In time you learn to use it."

 

I don't think that the O.P.'s hypotheses necessarily makes sense because Anakin/Vader is the target of the individuals who are the "last hope" and the "another" that are being spoken of. If Yoda had been referring to Anakin, he would've probably said, "There's ONLY one", because Anakin, as the Force's savior, is contextually different than Luke and Leia, whose roles are to turn Anakin back.

But on a more immediate level, I don't think there's any serious question that the "another" that Yoda was referring to was Leia, if only because I don't think that the whole "Chosen One" story had been plotted out yet.

 

The other Yoda refers to is, of course, Skippy the Jedi Droid.

 

It's intended as a reference to Leia. This is added by some of the strange events around her during Episode 5 on Bespin. In Episode 6 we learn it for fact when it's revealed to Luke that Leia is his sister. Anakin stepping up and defeating the Sith is the result of Luke's influence. Obi Wan stated that he had failed Anakin; not to train him but to influence him in what is good and evil and what is important. Padme had a much better chance of reaching Anakin than Obi Wan did but because of Obi Wan's surprise encounter Anakin turned on Padme, to which she had no defense. Luke (and potentially leia) had the same power over Anakin that Padme had; the family bond of love. But Luke was able to defend himself unlike Padme, and although Obi Wan could defend himself, he didn't have the same bond that Padme did. This is why Obi Wan doesn't bother to try and convert Vader in Episode 4; because he already knows that only his children can reach him. This is what he learned after 20 years of solitary meditation on Padme's last words and perhaps the influence of Qui Gon's ghost. Luke was never going to defeat the Sith Lords through aggression. Yoda tried it that way and failed. The resolve was to use the force for knowledge and defense and let the will of the force handle the rest. Had Sidious understood the power of campassion, he would not have underestimated Luke's influence on Vader.

Anyway When Yoda sais "No ... There is another." he's making the point that if Luke fails to keep his cool and use his abilities as a true Jedi; for knowledge and defense; then Leia could possibly be trained to do what Luke could not. Once Obi Wan got the sign; Leia's request for General Kenobi's aid; the mission was to train Luke and/or Leia knowledge and defense and eventually bring Anakin back around to the good side. This is why it was a failure when Luke went to Bespin; because he wasn't ready for the trial.

 

I agree, Yoda was referring to Leia.

But that was the irony. At that time, neither Luke nor Leia could defeat Lord Sidious without the dark force. The only one who could was ironically yet another Skywalker, that Obi-Wan didn't fathom possible and Yoda - well Yoda I am not sure what he thought. At first I thought he believed like Obi-Wan, that Anakin was lost forever. But when Luke tells him that Vader admitted to being his father, Yoda says, "unexpected, this is", so he may have actually held out some hope for the chosen one after all.

 

At that time.

 

"The other he spoke of is your twin sister."

 

game, set, match...Master_Starwalker.

 

GL had admitted that this line was always in reference to Luke's sibling. At the time of TESB that sibling was not Leia, but since he decided not to make episode VII through IX, he decided that it would make the most sense to make Leia the long lost sibling, giving closure to that subplot and also removing romantic tension between Han, Luke and Leia.

It was clear in TESB and ROTJ that Yoda and Ben had given up on Anakin, so I think there is little chance GL ever intended that line to mean anyone but the sibling.

 

Actually, my understanding is that when this was written it was intended to set up the 7/8/9 trilogy that was to follow ROTJ, and to provide a basis for a Force-sensitive character that would be the main focus of that series.

Then, when the 7/8/9 trilogy plans were scrapped, they had to work in a storyline into ROTJ that would explain it away, and so they made Leia Luke's sister - something that was not previously part of the story, just like Vader = Luke's dad was not part of the story until ESB was being written.

 

Yeah, it kind of ends the debate, doesn't it?

 

The other being Leia is said in RotJ but in the context of ESB the other being Leia does not make much sense.

Yoda and Obi-Wan have been telling Luke to let Han and Leia die rather than try to rescue them, does not sound like they care very much about that "other hope".

Second, with Luke leaving and Leia already in Vaders grasp, both hopes are now in danger. If Luke turns or is killed, it would not look good for Leia, either she dies as well of she remains captured by the empire.
So they do not have much to hope for at all, if Luke fails then Leia is most likely lost as well, so their only chance is if Luke actually pulls it off.

Regards
Nordom

 

Nordom, that's a very insightful observation. If Leia is the "other" hope, and if Luke fails in his self-appointed mission, then both hopes are lost. We can retcon this by saying that, well, Leia managed to escape Bespin without Luke's help, so Yoda was right to put his faith in the "other". Nonetheless it feels like he's talking about some other, as yet undiscovered person.

I think part of the brilliance of ROTJ is that it neatly ties up all these loose ends, but that doesn't erase the plain and evident fact that Leia and Luke were not really siblings in the minds of the authors of ESB (Lucas, Kasdan or Kershner).

 

Yoda specifically warned Luke not to go...had Luke listened, Leia still would have escaped, and Luke never would have put himself in danger. Both hopes would have been safe. Remember, the only reason both hopes were in danger is because Luke intentionally disregarded Yoda's advice, and put himself in that situation. You cannot pin the possibility of Luke's "self-appointed" mission on Yoda, both him and Ben warned Luke not to do it. Thus, Leia being the other still makes sense.

 

It makes sense in retrospect, but at the time -- when Leia had not yet been established as the other Skywalker -- it really didn't. Remember that "even Yoda" could not see whether Leia and the others would die; as far as Kenobi and Yoda knew, Luke's going to rescue her would end in catastrophe for both "hopes".

 

She wasn't established as far as the audience goes, no. However, it is quite reasonable to assume that Lucas was developing ROTJ at the same time as TESB, and would have taken that plot point into consideration. As soon as Star Wars became a huge phenomenon, and he knew he was going to get to make at least two more, I think its reasonable that while filming TESB, he already knew that Leia was Luke's brother...The kiss? Intact, because while he knows it, neither we or the characters know it yet, so there is no reason to remove it, other than the its kind of creepy in retrospect angle. From a character standpoint, because they don't know they are bro and sis, its not creepy to them...Anyway, even though we don't find out Leia is a Skywalker until ROTJ, I don't think its safe to assume that Lucas didn't as he was filming TESB. So, for me, the "There is another" never bothered me. I wondered who Yoda meant in 1981, and then got my answer in 1983. Case closed, as far as I was concerned. Yoda didn't know whether Leia would die or not, which makes it all the more important that Luke stayed on Dagobah, instead of risking his life too...

Of course, this whole thread makes me think that my fanon idea that Bail sent Leia to Tatooine to find Ben and be reunited with Luke, so they could begin their Jedi training under Obi-Wan makes more sense than just the Death Star plans, which she could have delivered any number of ways...

 

Darth_Davi, Lucas and Kasdan did not conceive of Leia as the other Skywalker until the writing of ROTJ, begun over a year after the release of ESB. Lucas:

"My feeling about Luke being the last hope was really done in an effort to make sure that he was in some jeopardy, that he might not succeed. I was trying to set up subliminally in the audience's mind that something is going on here, that he could fail. And if he does fail, 'there is another hope.' So the audience is saying, 'Don't go, finish your training.'"

This fact that Leia has not yet been cast as the sister is supported by the fact that in the third draft of ESB (April 1978), when Kenobi says "That boy is our last hope," Yoda replies: "No.... We must search for another [emphasis mine]."

 

If Luke had not gone then Leia would in all likelyhood not have escaped, Vader would have kept hurting her and Han and when it became clear to him that Luke would not come then odds are he would have killed one of them to draw out Luke, Leia is the most likely one here as Han was promised to Boba Fett. If that failed he might have killed the rest of them as Vader was not one to swallow defeat easily. Ignoring this, Lando could do what he did because Vader was distracted with preparing for Luke, without that distraction Lando might not have dared or Vader might have found out and stopped him. Also without R2 the MF would not be able to go anywhere, so even if Leia and the others got away, they would soon be captured.
In all, without Luke, it is unlikely that Leia would have escaped and she would most likely die. In any event Obi-Wan and Yoda did not know that she would escape because if they did then they would tell Luke to make him stay put.

Luke going will put both hopes in great danger so Yodas line makes very little sense unless he already knew what would happen and both would be safe but then why would he worry?

As Vortigern99 said, Leia was not intended to be Lukes sister when ESB was made, Lucas has admitted this and Gary Kurtz said this as well. Also there were other scenes that were shot but later got cut where Luke and Leia did talk about their love and there they almost kissed but got stopped by C3PO.

Lastly the "other" in the context of ESB might not even by another Skywalker, just another hope.

Regards
Nordom

 

But....they didn't use that line, they changed it to "There is another", an act which supports the idea that it was decided to make Leia Luke's twin. After all, he hadn't made up his mind that Vader would be Luke's father until sometime in 1978 (or even '79).

Also, how was Leia able to speak with Luke telepathically?

 

If we believe Gary Kurtz, producer of the first two STAR WARS films, Leia was not originally intended to be Luke's sister. Lucas has never admitted this in so many words (at least that I've been able to find), but it's evident from the way he discusses his reasons for the "other" line ("I was trying to set up subliminally in the audience's mind that something is going on here, that he could fail. And if he does fail, 'there is another hope.' So the audience is saying, 'Don't go, finish your training.'"), and from the difference in Luke and Leia's ages in the screenplay for the original film (20 and 16, respectively), that the two characters were not written as twins until the script for ROTJ. There is also the matter of the ESB-scripted kissing session that Nordom refers to, above, and the decision by Lucas to have the two share a romantic kiss in Splinter of the Mind's Eye. There is also the idea of common sense, which conveyed in the theaters in 1983 -- to the tune of snickering and giggling from those wise enough to see past the bull -- that this was a last-minute plot point, devised to tie up loose ends. (For the record, I love the "twins" plot point and think it's brilliant, but that doesn't mean it was inherent in the story all along.)

All of this is probably best suited for zombie's Secret History of Star Wars thread (see p. 70 for the full "sibling" debate), though there is some room for overlap in this thread.

 

Oh I didn't know that. I was out of the loop when he made that quote I guess. lol.

Well in that case, Yoda may have been referring to Anakin, with some foresight. You have to imagine that once George had the idea of the villain turning hero, he was super excited. That particular ploy had never been done in a blockbuster and rarely on a small scale. Since Yoda was supposed to be an 'all wise' super Jedi, it would make sense that he might have an inkling that there was still hope for Anakin's redemption. Yoda says 'unexpected this is' when Luke told him Vader had indicated he was his father - that may have been added in the later release, but nonetheless, that would give even more credence to that idea.

Or Lucas was simply having Yoda indicate that some other force sensitive was out there who could help and leaving open the possiblility of some other character being added in during ROTJ.

 

Nobody here has claimed that Leia was supposed to be his sister in ANH. But here's some evidence that they'd decided to make her Luke's twin in ESB:

1) The telepathic communication. Luke first pleads for Obi-Wan's help, and then pleads for Leia. This suggests he substituted one Force-sensitive person for another.
2) Yoda says "There is another" with melodramatic aplomb. The line delivery something other than a superficial ploy to dupe the audience (as the quote from Lucas would suggest).
A: Anyway, by this point in time, Luke was already leaving Dagobah and out of contact with Yoda and Obi-Wan, so how could it be a mechanism to get the audience to cheer for him to stay? (Did they expect the audience to want Luke to turn his X-Wing around and say, "Sorry fellas! I'm back because I don't want some upstart to steal my thunder!")
3) The decision to make Vader Luke's father had already been made, suggesting that the Skywalker dynamic was already well under construction.

If Kershner (or possibly even Kasdan) were asked directly about that line, I'd bet money that they'd say they were told of its meaning.