Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Jedi Merkurian, Dec 19, 2012.
Everybody chill out, mmmmkay?
I’ve read that some people consider it the height of foolishness, and a sign of Luke’s “incomplete” training that he cast aside his lightsaber when facing the Emperor in RotJ. However, I’d like folks to re-consider that scene in light of this bit from the RotS novelization (edited for brevity). It’s the battle between Yoda and Sidious, from Yoda’s point-of-view:
A Sith is someone who is recognized as such by an existing Sith. How the first Sith became a Sith is only explained in the TPM novelization.
I'm prepared to take flack for it, but midi-chlorians seem to play a role in the development of the Jedi or Sith. Anakin's training was shorter than others partly due to his connection to the Force. This same connection appears to have been passed onto Luke and Leia (more especially Luke -- perhaps even amplified in his case?). Luke's training is significantly different, partly due to necessity, but also due to his innate ability.
A Jedi's ability seems to have a ceiling. It isn't just about learning. As JediMerkurian points out, the level of a Jedi/Sith seems to be more about maturity and commitment to the respective order. Beyond that they seem to be limited genetically in their abilities. That's where it appears the midi-chlorians come into play.
So another illustration that tricks, raw power and battle prowess are not what makes one a Jedi Knight can be gleaned from AotC in the personage of Anakin Skywalker.
In that movie, in terms of “tricks,” he is able to sense an individual suffering from across the galaxy, which appears to be a feat peculiar to Skywalkers. It also looks like he uses the Force to soothe a savage beast, an ability that is apparently unique.
In terms of battle prowess, consider the circle of survivors at Geonosis. The vast majority of them were Council Masters, along with a couple of Knights, Obi-Wan, Anakin, and Padme; and Anakin was distracted by the task of keeping Padme safe. You know who else fought at Geonosis while distracted?
This guy, another Council Master IIRC.
Another sign of Anakin’s battle prowess is that Dooku, supposedly one of the finest swordsbeings in the Order, looked wore out after putting Anakin down.
So raw power on par with the Grand Master of the Order, skill-at-arms to surpass Knights and Masters, but still not considered a Jedi Knight himself. Why? The short answer is that he’s a whiny hothead. When you’re wailing that you’re being held back, then you’re not actually being held back
I don't see those as unique abilities on his part. At least the latter isn't, since we see that Yoda does sense Anakin' suffering on Tatooine.
I'm more inclined to chalk that up to Yoda sensing a disturbance in the Force caused by the most powerful being in the galaxy completely losing it. But your point works also.
Jedi: motivated by concern for others.
Sith: motivated by concern for self.
Which brings us back to: what is the difference between a Sith and a Jedi who is motivated by concern for self?
Have I missed some earlier posts...if so, ignore me if I come out of left field here.
As human and other sentient species, a Jedi is bound to be self-motivated at times; the desire to not be hungry, in pain, and without shelter is a survival instinct. But I don't think a Jedi would more than occasionally be driven by such purpose; a Jedi (as opposed to non-Jedi Force-user) wants and has dedicated him-herself to the Force.
A Sith is dedicated to furthering his-her own self essentially all the time and doesn't care who is harmed in so doing.
NIAWYC, but what –really- is the distinction between a Sith from a Jedi who has the very same outlook?
My argument has always been that there isn’t one, save that using the term “Sith” is acceptable, but for some reason the term “Dark Jedi” sends some Star Wars fans into a fire-breathing frenzy of nerd rage.
Likewise, it’s my assertion that the vaaaaaast majority of Jedi training isn’t about learning how to do tricks with the Force, it’s about how to be a Jedi. That’s how Luke could learn in months what Jedi Masters normally stretch out over the course of years. That’s also what Obi-Wan was getting at when he said that he’d failed Anakin.
Similarly, I’d say that the majority of Sith training is centered on how to be a Sith. Look at it this way: a neophyte Sith, or Dark Jedi, or whatever, is like an atomic bomb. Sith training teaches them how to take that explosive, highly destructive reaction and turn it into a thermonuclear reactor. That’s one way I would interpret Sidious’ musings that “the Jedi use understanding to gain power, while the Sith use power to gain understanding.”
Uh, I think I wasn't sure what you were asking above based on your response, but this I will say:
Indeed. The skills AND the mindset took time to master; the trials in my view were far less about skill than about self-mastery, for a Jedi.
And that isn't anywhere near the first Sith, if put in context with the wider EU.
Well I don't really like leaving the EU out of this discussion because it has very detailed and good answers to this. Though I would say if your being very casual I'd say if the character uses the force then just look if they are a "good guy" or a "bad guy". If they are a good guy they probably are a jedi, if they are a bad guy they probably are a sith. Also if your a jedi then that means your in the jedi order There are no force users in the films who aren't one or the other.
But the real answer is if your curious look into it a little bit.
I’m well aware of what the EU answer to each and every one of the questions I’ve posed. However, I also am of the opinion that the EU answers fly in the face of the on-screen evidence, especially (for example) the notion that Luke Skywalker was some sort of half-trained n00b.
Think about it: this is the Jedi version of a Hail Mary pass against the two most powerful and evil beings the galaxy has ever seen. If it fails, the galaxy is well and truly screwed. Possibly for all eternity. Do you really think that Yoda would do a slapdash job of training Luke, given the stakes?
I thought Yoda was so close to dying that he couldn't train Luke anymore. Even if Yoda thought Luke was unprepared, there would be little point in telling him so. There wasn't anyone else remotely prepared to fight Vader.
He waited until a few seconds of Luke's return to go *poof* I always interpreted it as "My work here is done," rather than "I can't go on."
Agreed. He was near-death, but was holding on to life until he could complete Luke's training.
Another point to consider about Luke's supposed half-done Jedi training: One particular school of thought asserts that they learn about the Force constantly, from birth until they're considered Knights in their late teens/early 20's, or Master when they're in their late 30's/early 40's. For sake of discussion, let's assume that this is correct; they train from infancy. Now consider this group here:
They look to be about 5 or 6 years old. Let's be generous and say they're five. Let's also be generous and say that they didn't start this particular regimen until they were three years old. Now consider-
This suggests that what normally takes an "average" apprentice Jedi two or three years to learn, Luke Skywalker figured out in about five minutes. So however many weeks or months Luke was on Dagobah was plenty of time for Yoda to teach him all the "tricks" of the Force. I assert that Yoda was trying to teach Luke how to be a Jedi. Which is ironic, considering that Vader told Luke that he wanted to complete his training, which -in a way- he actually did.
I think the Sith also teach self-mastery as well. Compare RotS Vader to ESB Vader. In RotS, Vader wigged out and choked the crap out of the woman he loved, the woman for whom he became Darth Vader in the first place. All at the very sight of Obi-Wan. In ESB, when his best chance at realizing all his ambitions slipped from his fingers, Vader basically went, “well…[censored],” and calmly walked away.
I like to think that new Sith go through a period where they overdose on the dark side and aren't very rational and violent until they get used to it.
Well, looks like you guys got started on this before I did. I am trying to get a thread going on exactly the same topic, only as it would/could/should be in the actual real world. It's fun to think about it because if people can show how it would actually be done, it gives greater depth to the silm lore version and who knows, maybe someone iwll get some good ideas from it. I'll get my post and bring it over here in a little bit.
Another point my wife made about the speed of Luke's training relative to OT training: it's the difference between a regular student taking a foreign language course during their four years of high school, compared to doing deep-immersion for a couple of months by travelling to a foreign country. To which I would add that the traveler is a linguistics genius being accompanied by a bilingual native.