Saga (Non-EU) What Makes a Jedi/Sith?

That's an interesting analogy and one that I can relate to IRL. When I got a degree in languages I had been learning French for 13 years and Spanish for 4 years but I had to reach the same level in both. So it's possible, but it usually means that you were learning other stuff during the 'non-intensive' course. Since Jedi got sent all over the galaxy as ambassadors (eg Qui & Obi in TPM) or peacekeepers, I would assume that much of their training was in such things as diplomacy and 'alien' cultures. Luke didn't spend any time on that kind of thing AFAIK.

Certainly not intentionally. The fact remains however that Luke left Dagobah, despite Yoda's pleadings. Yoda would have liked to give him additional training. It's obvious why. Forget Vader, Luke is eventually going to have to confront Sidious, and Yoda knows better than anyone alive how difficult that's going to be. He knows Luke is nowhere nearly ready for that confrontation.

When Luke returns, Yoda tells him that he doesn't require any additional training, and in a sense that's true. He already knows what he absolutely needs to know. He's been informed of the pitfalls of the dark side. He knows how to build and use a lightsaber. He knows the old mind trick; he can move objects with his thoughts; he can peer into the future and sense events occurring elsewhere; he can perform incredible leaps and feats of acrobatics. At least in terms of sensing and manipulating the Force, his skills are complete. He has the full Jedi bag of tricks.

But there's a difference between learning a skill and mastering it. Luke is profoundly gifted, but he's no match for Sidious yet. He certainly would have greatly benefited by further honing his skills under Yoda's supervision. When Luke returns to Dagobah he's informed that this is no longer possible, and that's just too bad. Still, Yoda reassures Luke that he is capable of carrying on: that he has the knowledge to be a Jedi. His skills will continue to improve with time and practice. He simply needs to prove that he has the self-mastery expected of a Jedi Knight. He needs to pass his trial, and his trial is named "Vader."

Why did it take so long to train Jedi in the Republic? 2 reasons. One: those Jedi were not as talented as Luke, and the skills came much harder. Two: the Republic Jedi were not just being trained how to use the Force. They were being completely educated in the temple. That means they were also learning history, politics, psychology, physical science, languages, piloting skills, military tactics, criminal investigation, "galactic geography", diplomacy, infiltration techniques, bodyguard techniques, etc. etc. The Jedi role of "Agent of the Republic" required extensive knowledge of many disciplines that were less mystical in nature. The Jedi temple was more like a university than a dojo. None of those things were part of Luke's curriculum. Yoda knew that time was short and was just focused on giving Luke a crash course in the Force. Luke had already learned some of these other skills, and could pick up the rest elsewhere.

What distinguishes a Sith? I think the Sith do have an ideology they sincerely believe in, and it's very straightforward.

-True wisdom comes from knowledge of the Force.
-To truly know the Force requires embracing the Force in its totality ... including the dark side.
-Those who embrace the dark side are therefore the wisest of all.
-By virtue of their unmatched wisdom, the Sith deserve to rule the galaxy with unfettered authority.
-Any action is justified to achieve this goal.

It is perfectly possible for a Jedi to turn to the dark side without fully embracing all the tenants of this ideology. You don't have to be an aspiring dictator to be considered evil. A dark Jedi may simply be seeking wealth or personal comfort, or seeking to avenge some wrong done to them, or may believe that they are justified in performing truly wicked acts in service to some otherwise righteous ideal. Or whatever. It's really the unshakable belief in their own right to rule that distinguishes the Sith. They desire total control, unlimited power, and furthermore I think they absolutely believe that they deserve it. Who decides who gets to be a Sith? The Sith do. It's like any other organization that elects its own members, it's just much more exclusive than most.

I would say that the Sith have an ideology, there are probably many users of the dark side fo the force that are without ideology. I'm hoping that the next movie explores other aspects of the dark side of the force.

Sith are played out.

That's a good point that I'll only quibble with a little, because my first post may have given a slightly wrong impression. Expecting Luke to kill Sidious in single combat perhaps wasn't part of Yoda's plan, especially if you take the ROTS novelization seriously (and I generally do). Still, he must have known that Luke would inevitably encounter Sidious, and surely would have wanted Luke at least to be as well prepared to protect himself as possible. I'm not at all suggesting that Yoda wanted to train Luke to be an assassin, just that he would have ideally liked to train Luke well enough to avoid the fates of Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar, and Kit Fisto.

In the ROTS novelization, Yoda realized that you couldn't defeat the Sith by fighting them. But you also can't beat the Sith if they kill you.

Maybe, Luke could DO something, thanks to his Skywalker blood and all, but didn't now WHY and HOW he could do it. Engineers are less prestigious than theoretical physicists (personally, I find the engineers more useful) because the former DOES it and the latter EXPLAINS. the secrets of teh universe!

Here's an analogy that I would add to what's already been said about what separates the Sith and the Jedi.

I think Jedi/Sith training is sort of similar to how someone learns martial arts. You gain belts for learning certain skills, but as you progress, you also gain belts by what you do and how much you understand history and ideas behind the martial art. So, there is both a skill set and a mind-set. Most martial arts also have a philosophical component about them, things like remaining calm during conflict, finding ways to solve conflicts without aggression, acting honorably and with respect towards others, etc., etc. They don't give belts for these things, though acting counter to these tenets can get you kicked out of a dojo. In the same way, I think you develop as a Jedi/Sith by progressing in a skill set as well as a mind-set.

Another similarity between martial arts and SW I think can be found in the differing strategies between Western martial arts and Eastern martial arts. Eastern martial arts typically emphasize maintaining a sense of calm when in combat. This is achieved by remaining in touch with the present moment. (Like how Qui-Gon meditates during the interruption in his battle with Maul.) A good example of this in MMA would be Fedor Emelianenko. His temperament before a fight is almost exactly how it is after a fight, win or loss. That sense of poise allows him to quickly analyze the situation he's in so that he can alter his technique to take advantage of his opponents weaknesses. On the other hand, Western martial arts like boxing often emphasize getting angry and fired up. The staredown at the beginning of the fight is all about intimidation, and the anger gives an adrenaline rush. When a boxer is hitting the heavy bag, they aren't taught to remain in the present. Instead, they're supposed to imagine they're breaking their opponents ribs.

Of course, the Jedi ways also are very similar to Eastern religious traditions, especially Buddhism. The Sith ways don't really seem to resemble any religion that I know of, but they certainly seem to be the anti-thesis of everything that Buddhists value. Perhaps they most closely resemble the philosophy of Nietzsche, though certainly only in some ways. That seems to the earthly belief system most similar to the Sith, I suppose.

Concerning Yoda not wanting to relive the mistakes of the past, my feeling is that Yoda, and especially Ben, did believe that Luke had to face Vader in combat and defeat him.

Here's his convo with Obi:

Luke: There is still good in him.
Obi-Wan: He's more machine now than man. His mind is twisted and evil.
Luke: I can't do it, Ben.
Obi-Wan: You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
Luke: I can't kill my own father.
Obi-Wan: Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

So, it seems they are still clinging to the idea that Luke has to kill Vader. (In a way, Obi is right b/c only after their combat did Luke fully reject the dark side when he realized that he was becoming like his father, but I think it's clear that Obi-Wan wasn't thinking that this was the way it would go down.) Instead, in his view, Luke has to kill him. Yoda's dialogue is a little less clear, but he certainly never gives Luke the impression that Obi-Wan was giving him bad advice, and I imagine that Yoda and Obi-Wan have had a lot of free time, so they're probably on the same page. Also, they don't seem to believe that Vader is redeemable, so again that makes me think that they haven't come up with another alternative to combat. Something I'll mention in a moment about Vader's redemption also makes me think this.

I get the sense that their real basis for sending Luke really is just the slimmest of hopes. I get the feeling that they know there's a good chance Luke won't come out alive, but they have no other choice (which works well dramatically b/c it really seems unlikely that Luke will be able to pull it off).

This is not to say that Luke is weak. Palpatine also recognizes that Luke has become powerful mentally and physically. Palpatine: He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the Dark Side of the Force. Also, when Luke is in the Emperor's throne room, he refers to him as a Jedi. Palpatine: A Jedi's weapon, much like your father's. However, in TESB, Vader tells him that he's not a Jedi yet. I think the Jabba skiff sequence is meant to show just how much he has progressed. He doesn't rely on a blaster. He's now Zorro with a light saber, deflecting any blaster shot that goes his way. (One thing I always thought was weird was that only 1 year had progressed since his initial training. It does seem to me that much progress could only occur with more than 1 year's experience.)

So, it seems that Luke has made some impressive progress between the 2 movies. Both Yoda and Palpatine recognize that fact. So, he's clearly not a n00b. However, my interpretation is that he's still below or just even with Vader even in ROTJ. I think he defeated Vader b/c Vader really was conflicted. He didn't want to kill his son, while Luke was not conflicted. He fought with rage at the thought that Vader might go after Leia. Luke's progress is also both physical and mental in nature. His improved physical skills allow him to fight Vader on much more even terms, while his emotional maturation allows him to overcome his anger and retain the composure to see Vader as a human being and that he is dangerously close to becoming just like him. If he lacked either the physical skills or the mental maturity, he would have failed.

Still, do Yoda and Obi really believe that Luke has the physical and mental attributes to pull it off? No, I think they only believe that Luke has progressed to the point that he has the very slightest chance at success and that he may be mature enough to resist temptation. And in the end, what allows Luke to save Vader? His love for his father -- in other words, a very strong attachment, the same attachment that led Anakin to the dark side in the first place. That is what I was mentioning above that suggests to me that Yoda still had not fully learned the lesson from the Jedi's defeat. What saves Luke is his profound attachment to his father, and there is no indication that Yoda has changed his view on attachment from his time in the Jedi Order. In fact, Luke may be Yoda's final lesson in his search to discover the secrets of the Force.

What you're saying certainly makes sense. In my explanation above, I sort of give my idea of what I think Yoda and Obi-Wan are thinking Luke will have to do to defeat the Sith. I'm curious. What is your idea of how Yoda and Obi imagine it will go down when Luke confronts Vader (and/or) Palpatine? Or do you think they really don't know exactly how it will go down but instead just have a sense that Luke has enough of what it takes however things might go to win in the end?

Also, one other question. You say that Obi-Wan is concerned that Luke is overly attached to his father, and I agree with that. However, his strong attachment is what helps Luke ultimately resist killing his father (and fearing he'll become like him) and Vader's strong attachment is what leads Vader to risk his life and toss Palpatine down the shaft. So, do you think that Obi-Wan (and maybe Yoda too) didn't recognize that in this circumstance Luke's strong attachment could actually be to their benefit?

I think it's pretty obvious they didn't think that about his attachment. Obi-Wan and Yoda thought Vader was pure evil and irredeemable at that point. Any mercy that Luke showed would be a weakness for Vader to capitalize on.

This. But, in addition; Obi-Wan senses that Luke is idealising his father, but it is Vader who he will have to confront. To reference Obi-Wan in ROTS he says "I will do what I must" before he duels with Vader. Much as he wants Anakin to free himself from the chains of Vader he accepts that he is facing Vader and he duels him without resorting to anger or hatred (and his defensive tactics throughout that duel exemplifies that). If Luke is not clear minded enough to do what he must then when he does fight he will do so in anger, with hatred - and that is exactly what we see develop.

I don't think that it is Luke's attachment to his father that stops him killing him. It is his realisation of the lesson in the cave on Dagobah. He sees Vader's mechanical hand and looks to his own. He doesn't kill him because he realises what it is to be a Jedi - and striking a man down in anger isn't a part of that.

I also don't think we are supposed to understand that Vader saves Luke simply because he is his son - it ishis realisation, upon the actions of his son, that "Palpatine is evil" and that he can choose the right path. He isn't a slave of destiny but is responsible for what he has brought about.

What makes a Sith Master? Well, in case the answer wasn't obvious, I'm going to go with power.

Just look at the Sith Code, it's kind of their warped code of honor. They do not accept defeat on the hands of anyone or death. No one could kill Sidious, period. That alone made him a Sith Master, being undefeated and uncontested in the galaxy. Also, it doesn't matter how it's accomplished. Sure, Sidious has raw power using dark side techniques like Sith Lightning and later Force Storm, and Lightsaber techniques- but what was truly keeping him alive is his ability to manipulate others, especially during the clone wars.

Having no rivals makes a Sith Master what they are. Sith Apprentices, on the other hand, can never be Sith Masters because they will always have a rival in their master. I think it's disingenuous to claim to be a Sith Master when there is another equally or more powerful Sith alive.