Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darkside_Spirit, Feb 1, 2002.

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  1. Mister_Bunny Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2001
    star 3
    Strange that the prophecy of "The Chosen One", instead of bettering the galaxy, only served as an invitation to all of the evil in the galaxy to focus on The Chosen One and convert him to evil.

    If there was no prophecy, the evil forces might not have known to look for Anakin, and he woulda kicked their butts with much less suffering.
  2. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    TreeCave: Sorry to bring this up again, but I feel it has to be addressed.

    I don't know if Bane's talking to me or not, but since KTW clearly didn't understand my point...I'm not attacking Christianity. KTW made it about Christianity, probably because that's the only religious experience he's had, and therefore statements against religion are immediately transferred into "against Christianity" (I know I did this before I learned more about other religions.)

    I find it frustrating when people overlook certain parts of my post. I stated clearly multiple times that I was only using the 10 Commandments as an example. I also tried to use vague, more encompassing 'spiritual' terms to indicate that I was not just talking about Christianity, because I knew something like this was going to happen. I know perfectly well that there are more religions than Christianity, but is anyone here as familiar with their law codes as with the Ten Commandments? I didn't think so, so I used them. It is also frustrating when people assume, because of overlooking said points, that I have no idea what I'm talking about/have no experience with other religions. And I've read and reread your post, even went back a few pages, and can't find any indication that what you were talking about was about homosexual relationships. I think everyone would benefit if one's opinions were clearly stated, and responses were carefully read.

    That felt like a rant, I'm sorry. I just had to get that out :).
  3. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    And I've read and reread your post, even went back a few pages, and can't find any indication that what you were talking about was about homosexual relationships.

    I apologized for this point, and explained that I edited it out and forgot. That's 2-3 posts back.

    KTW, your verbage, like most everyone else's, seemed to indicate that one either believes in "God" or nothing. Now, the god you refer to is Yahweh - the god of the Jews and later Christians, who believe there is no other god. But other religions have gods of other names, whether it's another "one and only god" like Allah, or many gods and goddesses, or even the Tao. Even though you acknowledged in your disclaimer that there are other religions, you seemed unaware that there are other "gods" according to other believers. That was why I concluded you had a lack of experience outside Christianity.

    From now on, I'm referring to the god of the Chrisians and Jews as Yahweh. Calling him "God" excludes all other gods (such as Allah) from the right to exist. It's kind of like if we used the term "human" only to refer to Chinese women, and all other homo sapiens were denied the term. I hope that makes sense.
  4. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    I apologized for this point, and explained that I edited it out and forgot. That's 2-3 posts back.

    I'm not doubting that you did say this, just starting to doubt my reading ability, because I can't find it...where exactly did you say this?

    The way I look at it, 'God' included Yahweh and Allah. Allah is still the God of the OT, as is Yahweh. That part of them is identical. Really, they are the same god, just the names carry different meanings to different people. It's like sea cow vs manatee. 'God' is a more generic term than either of their proper names, although not as generic as 'god'. The reason I was using the word 'God' is because I was dealing with the Ten Commandments, which are from the OT as you know, so it's not specifically Yahweh nor Allah, or, maybe more accurately, both. :)
  5. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4


    KTW, I put the comment about sex rules in my post but then took it out before posting, and later forgot I'd taken it out. So naturally, you never saw it, and I was confused when I suggested you should have. That's why I keep apologizing. LOL! Hope this is clear now. I have a tendency to edit my posts quite a lot as I'm writing them (I'm not referring to the boards' editing feature, but to simply rewritng.)

    As for the Yahweh/God/Allah thing, I understand your viewpoint and it's valid. I just don't happen to see it quite the same way. My point about the language is rather Orwellian - language has strong psychological effects on people. Though some people share your wholistic view, most people forget there's even the option of believing in other gods, and that provides a subtle subconcious boost to Yahweh's credibility. Now, I'm not seeking to undermine his credibility with others simply because I don't believe in him - I'm just trying to get more specific, which if anything should strengthen people's beliefs.

    Please, no one think I'm making fun of Yahweh when I say this, or suggesting he operates like a PR firm, but here's an example to flesh out the "subtle, unconscious" psychological effect I'm talking about. In the exciting world of secretaries, you have Executive Assistants (top dog), Administrative Assistants, and then Receptionists. What if one of the Exec Asst's at a firm got all the other Exec Asst's titles changed to "Senior Administrative Assistant", so in the end there was only one "Executive Assistant", even though there are several other people doing exactly the same duties under a different title?

    You may think it would make no difference, but at some firms, it does. I knew a girl who was hired as an "administrative assistant" and had a very hard job, doing many things for many people in the office. Then they gave her the phones to answer too, and changed her title to "Receptionist". Even though this girl still worked harder than most admin assts anywhere I've seen (esp with the added phone duty), everyone started treating her a bit differently, like she was just some intern that floats through in the summer.

    Now to less potentially, however unintentionally, inflammatory topics. Mister Bunny, interesting point. The prophecy does seem to play a role in what goes wrong with Anakin. (Assuming it goes "wrong" - I think we must at least consider the possibility that his turn ultilmately served "good" and was therefore the correct thing to have happen, even if that doens't absolve him due to his bad motivations.)
  6. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    TreeCave:

    :) Confusion levels regarding the homosexuality comment dropping...

    I definitely agree with you that different words that basically mean the same thing can have very different connotations. Where we differ is that I don't perceive a Judeo/Christian leaning in the word 'God'.

    But let's put this misunderstanding behind us now :).
  7. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    Where we differ is that I don't perceive a Judeo/Christian leaning in the word 'God'.

    Right - this is what I was saying is a totally valid point of view, one I understand but just don't happen to agree with. Glad everything is clear now. :)
  8. Mister_Bunny Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2001
    star 3
    So, does anyone see a parallel between the evil twisting of the "Prophecied Chosen One" in the Star Wars Hexology to the "Prophecied Chosen One" in the Judeo/Christian belief system? Such things as crusades come to mind.
  9. Mister_Bunny Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2001
    star 3
    I do Mister_Bunny. You make a good point!
  10. Mister_Bunny Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 5, 2001
    star 3
    Me too! Mister_Bunny, you're the best! No threadkiller you.
  11. cydonia Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 6, 2001
    star 5
    You're so very special, mr. bunny.
  12. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    I was leaving it alone because I had thought that subject of discussion might go more than 2 posts before hitting the Great Wall of Christianity. Not criticizing you, Mr. Bunny - your point is quite valid, and worth of discussion if we were on a board where any use of the word "Christian" by a non-Christian didn't result in an accusation of "bashing".

    If I might steer it further from Judeo-Christian topics, what precisely DOES a boddhisattva do when no one wants to be saved by him, and in fact they are just using him to rack up more "bad karma" for themselves? I won't try to make the case that what Anakin did was "good", but I think in the larger picture - looking beyond his wrong motivations - it may have been the most "right" thing for the galaxy. It at least perhaps showed people that they needed some "saving"?
  13. Ki-Adi Bundi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 3, 2000
    star 4
    Well, I am quite sure that the Imperials that thrived during Palpatine's ruling didn't want Anakin's salavation... It all depended on your "point of view" (isn't Obi-Wan considered a Prophet in the Jedi Religion? If not, he should, or at least he should be a Martyr).
  14. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    The trouble with this is that it's a classic way for one viewpoint to try to get one over on another, in religious discussions on Star Wars boards. Theists say: "I'm surprised there are so many atheists here, when the purpose of Star Wars is to make people think about God". Atheists say: "I'm surprised there are so many Christians here; Star Wars seems mainly Buddhist in origin." And so on. It's an interesting point, but it's all been done and dusted before.
  15. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    And a lot of people regard Jesus as a Boddhisattva, which makes sense.

    But here's my issue: I'm just looking for a practical way to talk on these boards without causing a flame war. And as far as I can tell, if we simply avoid using terms and names like "Christian" and "Jesus", the Christians on the board don't seem to get offended. If we simply use those names, no matter how we are using them, they start calling their ACLU lawyers. ;)

    So, while you and I may agree that it's pretty shallow to judge a discussion by its jargon, if it gets us past this silliness, it works for me.
  16. Darkside_Spirit Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 3
    I doubt the ACLU would support a cause like that. ;) Christian Coalition or something would be more likely. Anyway, I would have thought that Christians would like to be talked about more--as the saying goes, "all publicity is good publicity". I'm not sure that is true with negative (perhaps even hateful) exposure, but it probably works for offhand comments; if you talk lots about a religion, people want to know more about it. I looked into Taoism in response to an off-the-cuff reference (in a Christian Senate Floor thread, as it happens).

    I was thinking about something earlier, and that is: are there any public figures (especially politicians in the US) who claim to be Judeo-Christian, or at least religious, but you suspect are just doing so for propaganda purposes? I've seen suggestions that Bill Clinton is a closet agnostic or atheist, despite claiming officially to be Baptist. I don't know how well-founded that suggestion is.
  17. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    i am sure there must be......that being said, Bill could well be a christian, despite your suspicions......either that or a damm good actor, and i don't think he is that good an actor........
  18. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    I don't think many politicians are sincere about much, but as far as hearing any concrete indicators that any of them have a different belief system from what they claim, I don't know. Then agian, I tune out the religious parts of what they blither about because I think most politicians would join the Order of Baby-Feasting Horse-Marrying Satanists if they thought it would get them re-elected.

    Ed. - No bashing of Christians, politicians, or Baby-Feasting Horse-Marriers is intended by this riot-inciting post. Well, maybe the politicians...
  19. Humble extra Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 1999
    star 5
    well, luckily in NZ most politicians who hold religious beliefs tend to keep them out of politics, as far as i can tell........there are a few christians in parliament, namely the leader of the opposition, but you could never tell, cept for a large family and the occasional light hearted catholic joke....

    the PM i think would be an agnostic, if not an athiest, not sure about that though
  20. DESERTJEDI Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 4
  21. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    I just got back from something called RYLA, a youth leadership program through Rotary Club. It was really fun and stimulating. Hmm, not much has gone on here in the past several days...

    Oh, what do people think about the recent Supreme Court ruling in the US that the 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance is illegal? For those here that might not know how it goes:

    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America. And to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, for liberty and justice for all.
  22. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    I think its about time, personally. The argument that "well, people from other religions can just pretend 'god' is a word of respect for something they believe in" always struck me as logically flawed, and certainly not inclusive of atheists, who have as much right to patriotism as Christians. And once again, I must reiterate that Buddhism, a wondrous peaceful religion that has not gone about slaughtering or raping in the name of what they consider sacred, is essentially atheistic. I would hate to disenfranchise any Buddhists who love the US.

    But then, even when I was Christian, I agreed with the Jehovah's Witnesses on this one point only - the flag fixation really is close to idolatry, and I was not the only Protestant who felt that way. Patriotism is fine, but we should pledge allegiace to a country and its people, not a piece of cloth. That's just MHO.
  23. ktwsolo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 25, 2001
    star 4
    I agree. I've never really seen a point in reciting the Pledge. I don't anyway (recite it that is).
  24. TreeCave Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2001
    star 4
    I guess it's supposed to mindlessly program people to go through the motions of patriotism. I don't see that such an exercise inspires any real feeling or commitment in people, but I'm not sure that's the goal of those who want it recited. (I'm not sure what the goal IS, I just feel sure they've noticed by now how a bunch of glassy-eyed kids reciting something in not-awake-yet voices doesn't really mean much.)

    I think it would be much better to actually discuss the US - pros and cons - and what it means to "love a country". I find it a bizarre notion personally. I can feel deep admiration for, say, the people who acted as heroes on 9/11 (and I don't mean just police and firefighters, but storekeepers who gave away items to survivors while they themselves were very likely to go out of business, and people who attacked hijackers or just called loved ones - that's actually a brave thing to do). But I have trouble feeling anything toward 280+ million people. It's like saying, "I really like the Milky Way a lot" when I've never been anywhere else, have nothing to compare it to.
  25. 1stAD Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2001
    star 5
    Interestingly, Francis Bellamy (the Baptist minister who originally conceived the pledge) wanted the final version to read like this:

    I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty, and justice for all.

    Of course, he knew full well that 'equality' would never be accepted nationwide.

    And judging by statements from his family members after 'Under God' was added in, he would have reviled it's addition to the pledge. After his retirement he left the church altogether, disgusted by the bigotry and hatred that was directed towards blacks as well as his own socialistic ideals.
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