Non-Religious Sanctuary Thread

"how many of you have had experiences that might be called "supernatural" or "psychic" or whatever buzzword's being thrown around at the moment?"

Telepathy-like communication occurs all the time for me. But interestingly only with people I know very well. So that has lead me to believe we have ways to communicate that goes beyond seeing and hearing. When I get to know a person I learn on a subconcious level his/her habits, feelings etc and that contributes to my perception of what they're thinking or will do. For example, when the phone rings I know before I pick up the phone who's calling.

Then I have also experienced something that is very close to mysticism .

About randomness, for me it wouldn't be that hard if it turned out there is no meaning whatsoever. I see a meaning in my life which is based on what I lived through as a child and teenager. Plus that experience I mentioned above has left me with some strong emotions about the nature of this world and universe.

 

*Walks in. Realises what this place is and legs it.*

 

Sagan's Demon Haunted world is excellent. It's interesting how the pendulum swings back and forth through science and superstition.

Chaos theory...wow that field of science/math is very interesting to say the least.

If I'm not mistaken, Jung believed their was an interconnectedness between all things, no matter their significance.

Does anyone know of the Schroedenger's Cat theory? Did I spell his name right?

 

Telepathy-like communication occurs all the time for me. But interestingly only with people I know very well.

Sometimes, my mother or I can start to bring up something neither of us has thought of in months or years, and even as we're struggling for words to describe it, the other will just KNOW and complete the sentence. It's pretty weird when it happens.

I have actually experienced telepathy with strangers or near-strangers. Several times, I've actually gotten strong confirmation - sort of accidental blind studies - that I really was "overhearing" their thoughts. And that's exactly how it is - I hear their voice in my head. This is something I'm very curious about because it makes sense that you'd have telepathy with friends and family, but someone you've never even really spoken to? And why some people but not others?

Chaka, I think you summed up Jung pretty well there, and it does fit into chaos science. I have heard the cat theory (not even going to try to spell the name), but could you refresh me on what it is again?

 

While I have never experienced hearing strangers' voices in my head I have on several occasions picked up and felt what a stranger feels. I study to become a teacher and when I have entered a classroom and look at students I can sense what they feel. And that occur from day one and throughout the time I'm there. Sometimes a glance is enough. It results in very intense emotions.

Maybe we are somehow tuned into picking up certain signals that we recognize. Perhaps when I have these intense emotions that comes from sensing another's feelings I do it because their signals speak the same "language" as mine do. Perhaps that is true for you too? You can only percieve thoughts from strangers that you on a subconcious level relate strongly to?

I know my perception of reality is most of the time based on emotions so then it would make sense that I feel rather than hear what I pick up from others.

 

You can only percieve thoughts from strangers that you on a subconcious level relate strongly to?

That's the best theory I've come up with, too. Although it creeps me out in a way - some of the people I can most read, well... I wish I couldn't. *sigh*

I also pick up on emotions, but I don't recognize it. I just assume the feelings are my own until I start thinking, "Okay, where did this horrid wave of despair come from" or "why am I so hyper". Then I realize there's someone around giving off that feeling.

 

Shrodinger's theory(spelled easier than I thought)

The theory basically says:we don't know what goes on inside a box unless we look. Is the "reality" of the universe created by the observations of intelligent(usually)beings?

Suppose you put a cat in a box with a glass bottle of poison, a radioactive detector(geiger counter),a radioactive substance, and a hammer over the glass to break it. The counter would be switched on long enough so there's a 50-50 chance it will record a radioactive particle being released while decaying.
If the detector records the particle, the hammer falls releasing the poison and the cat dies. If not, the cat lives. We can only know what happened when we open the box.
Until then, there is a super-position of states(two probabilities merged,50-50,etc.). The cat is neither alive nor dead.
When we open the box, the wave function collapses(quantum level waves)and at that instant the reality is formed. One more thing: Put a human inside the box. Do not try this at home! No poison. But, ask him to watch the geiger. Open the box and ask him what he found. Until then, the box occupies a super-position of states(two realities)either he observed it or did not. His own experience inside the box is much different than to those outside. He watched and precisely recorded whether a particle escaped or not. To us on the outside, we don't know. Only when we open the box and ask him will we know. Take this idea and apply it to say, the arstonomer's observations. He's seeing things relative to his position, not as they are.

There's more, but I have a headache now. Be back.

 

Yes! I remember that now.

And that also yields the question: can there be more than one reality? Say, yours and that of the person in the box?

My theory of reality is the little preamble at the beginning of Douglas Adams' Hitchhiker books:

"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexpplicable.

There is another theory which states that this has already happened."

 

This reminds me of birds: when they are flying together in groups, they all change direction simultaneously, i assume without "talking" or chirps or whatever. That's kind of esp- ish. Maybe we have sort of a bird brain, too.

 

Yep. My parrot is way smarter than I am. It's kind of frightening sometimes. She has this unbelievable grasp on her environment and what's going on within it.

 

Yeah the whole area of Quantum Physics is really fascinating. I think there actually was a quantum theory proposed by a Dr. Everett dealing with alternate universes. He basically said that it's possible that alternate universes could exist. However, he says it's not quite like movies,literature where we move in and out of it. His are completely separated from one another.

Haven't you ever thought to yourself occasionally "What if I would have done this instead of that?" Different paths your life may have taken,etc. Interesting.

ESP,sixth senses,etc. are interesting too. I have no idea what they may mean, or even what is the cause.

As for your parrot Treecave, animals, even domesticated ones, still have strong instincts. By contrast, we humans tend to ignore or supress our own. We have them, they're within us, but we've developed other ways to live and understand.

Finally, what about deja vu'? What about that? I have feelings like that fairly often.

We should re-name this the "Metaphysical" thread.

BTW, Darth Chaka is my daytime little 'bitty sock.

 

TreeCave and Force of Nature
Thanks for finding my dream amusing!

Ender-
I'm sorry, I swear I didn't mean to upstage your mime school story! My dream is in a totally different league than your mime school story, which nearly moved me to tears, btw.

I have always been interested in things which are inexplicable. That was why I took up reading tarot cards. Such a strange thing. I've done readings for people where I've uncovered things I couldn't possibly have known. A good example was that I discovered that an acquaintance of mine had a brother. I'm of the firm belief that we could all be telepathic if we opened up the places in our brains that control those functions, but who am I to know?


ShaneP:
Yeah the whole area of Quantum Physics is really fascinating. I think there actually was a quantum theory proposed by a Dr. Everett dealing with alternate universes. He basically said that it's possible that alternate universes could exist. However, he says it's not quite like movies,literature where we move in and out of it. His are completely separated from one another.

I really know nothing about quantum physics, but I would be interested to know if there is anything you would like to explain. Mathematics were never my strong suit (until I got out of high school) so I really tried to stay away from physics in any way shape or form.

All the best,
JediLeiaSolo

 

Yes, but what are instincts, when you think about them? Allow me to explain.

Douglas Adams writes a really amazing passage in one of his books that explains in detail the amount of complex calculus required to pinpoint where a thrown baseball is going to land well enough to catch it in something the size of a human hand with a baseball glove. To do this with logic and calculations requires very advanced math, considerable computing power, etc. But a child can often do it by instinct in the blink of an eye.

Instincts are extremely powerful and fast computations and deductions about our environment. Brains are the models for computers, so of course they're capable of such work. But too often we dismiss instinct as something underdeveloped in animals - something lesser than the power of logic.

I don't see it as lesser. While logic allows us to build on the discoveries of others and amass cumulative knowledge as a species that one individual could never find on his own, instincts are a different sort of intelligence altogether, extremely powerful. Basically, it's the difference between the unconscious mind - which can perform so much calculus in the blink of an eye but has no idea whether it's catching a baseball or a bomb - and the conscious mind, which acts much more slowly but is capable of comprehending things outside the realm of the unconscious.

I think a main goal of Zen Buddhism is to get the logical mind and the instinctive part of the mind working together - an unbeatable team. (Throw in the moral part of the brain, and you've got the complete spiritual package.)

That said, I also believe telepathy and other as-yet-unexplained phenomena are probably also the result of calculations we don't realize our brains are making.

For example, I have a strange musical ability - I assume others have it, but I don't personally know anyone. Any recorded song I know, if you get it ready to play and ask me to hum the first note before it starts, I get it right probably 99% of the time, and when I'm wrong, I'm only off by a half-note at most (and usually when I'm sick). My mind works like a recorder - I can play back almost any song I've ever heard twice or more in my head, complete with all the accompaniment and so on. Basically, it sounds like an aural equivalent to someone who can perfectly remember anything they've ever seen, as I can generally recall conversations and things with pretty good accuracy, too.

As uncanny a little trick as some people find this, no one ever thinks, "Do you suppose you're channeling spirits that know the notes, and they're telling you?" or anything similarly "supernatural". It seems fairly obvious it's just something unusual in my brain - my memory records sounds that other people's memories either can't record, or are told not to by the part of the brain that decides what's worth keeping and what's not.

So anyway.... I don't know about telepathy, but I wonder if it's pheremonal? My understanding about how birds can all turn at the same time as Cydonia was saying is that scientists think pheremones allow communication on some level. I gotta read more on that - it doesn't make a lot of sense on the surface.

Doesn't Steven Hawking talk about alternate dimensions, too? I know he says he thinks we'd have an easier time traveling to other dimensions than other star systems.

 

That said, I also believe telepathy and other as-yet-unexplained phenomena are probably also the result of calculations we don't realize our brains are making.

I wonder if we are unaware of these calculations because the culture we live do not give us a chance to use them. Perhaps we rely so much on certain forms of calculations that others become underdeveloped or unconcious.

 

Yes, Hawking did have a theory about alternate universes. I forgot about that.

You're right about instincts. As you pointed out, your parrot is much more in tune with its environment than you are. Animals are much more sensitive to changes because they rely on it for total support. We have drugs... Still, we have intuition. Perhaps that's an instinct?

 

Emilsson said: "I wonder if we are unaware of these calculations because the culture we live do not give us a chance to use them. Perhaps we rely so much on certain forms of calculations that others become underdeveloped or unconcious. "

I think so. The human race was right to develop its ability to logically sort things out, as it allows a conscious understanding not possible with instinct alone, but perhaps the "Age of Enlightenment" during which industry, the US, France, modern education.... basically the whole modern world.... was founded, we lost track of the fact that logic is slower and more methodical than automatic or instinctive deductions. I mean, look at how we evaluate intelligence - for years, we've reserved the term "smart" only for people good at book learning, writing.... academic pursuits. We're just now developing tests that recognize "spatial genius" for example - the ability to basically picture things in three dimensions, like someone who can plan out exactly where to put the furniture in a room without having to see it in the room first. That's an incredible ability, but only as it's become valuable in the market place have we begun to recognize it as such.

Chaka said:: "You're right about instincts. As you pointed out, your parrot is much more in tune with its environment than you are. Animals are much more sensitive to changes because they rely on it for total support. We have drugs... Still, we have intuition. Perhaps that's an instinct? "

Yes, my parrot can worry if there are out-of-the-ordinary things happening around her that she doesn't understand, and I think you're right that it's about relying on the environment for total support. (By the way, just as an interesting point, she applies words accurately to new situations, or turns phrases into questions when they've never been used as part of a question to her before.)

I would say intuition is an instinct, and intuition is closely related to ESP and so on. You have a "feeling" and you don't know where it came from (i.e., you're not consciously aware of your calculations in coming to the conclusion), and the feeling turns out to be right.

You know, no one ever suggests the Devil or spirits helping someone who's good at reading people, like a salesperson. You know how some of us are better at recognizing liars when we encounter them than others are? What is that, but a deduction or a pheremonal sense? Either we're unconsciously evaluating their body language and other subtle clues, or perhaps humans do use pheremones, and those of us more sensitive to them can "smell" the dishonesty.

Chaka, your alter-ego mentioned deja vu, and that got me thinking. It's been years since I've had deja vu, and I used to get it, I suppose, as often as anyone. But you sound like you get it more often than most? I've read a lot of theories - ranging from neural activity to past-life memories - on why it occurs, but nothing strikes me as the obvious answer, if there is one.

 

JediLeiaSolo's dream was funny! (Though as a HERETICAL BLASPHEMER she will surely be damned to burn in hellfire for all eternity! Bwahahahahahhah!)

 

You know, I've been agnostic for about 15 years now, and my parents are still convinced it's just a "phase" I'm going through.

 

Ahh thanks Drakside Spirit, for sucha great thread to just relax and read and soak in .. you rule man.

 

B'omarr, LOL. I guess they're seeing what they want to see - or "pulling a June Cleaver" as I like to call it. Good luck.

 

my mother still believes that.......and she because of that belief once changed my census form from atheist to RC, that when i still lived at home

believers never understand, they are looking for a truth that cannot exist and that tends to occupy the mind

 

Well, I'm not going in any of the religious threads anymore.

Let's try to keep this thread alive even if there isn't much debate in here. I like talking about spirituality and truth and science and all those things, but I'm sick to death of debating with people who would not see a different point of view if the very god they worship came up and presented it to them.

 

First off, I hope no one minds that I'm posting here, even though I'm not an atheist or agnostic, but, in fact, one of the Christians on the boards.

Secondly, I'd like to apoligize. I'm afraid that many of you have had bad experiences with Christians, and therefore think we are close-minded, judgmental people. I can understan why you would think that. I think part of these problem stems from how difficult it can be to write and type and tell people about some of the doctrines and beliefs of Christianity through a system of posts such as this. I find it incredibly hard to try and explian like this to someone what my faith in Jesus Christ is all about and why I believe it. I think if you could see some really Christians LIVE their faith, instead of just trying to explain it, you might see it in a different light. However, I know some of you have met Christians who do not act...especially nicely. And that is why I really want to apologize. I don't think atheists are evil. But have I been hypocritical, judgmental, and over-pious? Yes. More than once. And that's my fault. It's an awful thing when Christians cannot properly represent their Lord and Saviour like He wanted them to. So, I hope you accept my apology, however poorly worded and imperfect it is, becuase I really mean it, and I am really sorry that some of you have felt judgement and condemnation from some of my fellow Christians.

Sincerely,
the Angel of Lego

 

Lego, I think you're welcome to post here. I don't see this place as excluding people who have religious beliefs - it's just that those who do should not come in here to debate, lecture or demand explanations from us (there are plenty of other threads for that). As long as you don't do any of that, I - speaking only for myself - am fine with you posting here.

Lego said:"I'm afraid that many of you have had bad experiences with Christians, and therefore think we are close-minded, judgmental people."

Mean-spirited so-called Christians don't hurt my opinion of the truly good Christians I've known - the reason I get upset with mean-spirited Christians is that they are sullying a perfectly loving, all-embracing religion with their MISinterpretations of the religion.

In other words, the way I feel about mean Christians is the way most Moslems probably feel about bin Laden. I felt exactly the same way about mean-spirited Christians when I still was a Christian.

 

Don't feel obligated to apologize for other people's actions (though it is a very nice gesture )

It's like me apologizing for Adam's fruit obsession. Even if i hate apples, i'm responsible for him liking them. No fair!