Non Spoiler Forum Brouhaha...Big Question Marks

Discussion in 'Communications' started by Fatboy_Roberts, Apr 1, 2001.

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  1. Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 5
    Ternian said:

    ----------
    "DLM thought it was inapproriate, and so closed it. BIG DEAL. "

    - But didn't happen to tell anyone...
    ----------

    She said that it was inappropriate here. ANd since she closed it instead of just editing out the spoilers, that should have been assumed. Perhaps she should have said taht then, but we can't change that now. Assume it said now, seeing as she's already said it: Your "non-spoiler" report threads are inappropriate for the NS forum.

    Ternian said:

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    "2) Can you please post a link to these so-called 'new rules?' Kadue refered to them but could not find them. Can you?"

    - Point still open, Mr.P...
    ----------


    Let me restate myself. Did you happen to miss this post, parchance?

    Since when does DLM have to tell people explicitly, make up a list of rules? She did it b/c it was hard to keep track of. But the fact of the matter is, when she was making those up, she expressed feelings to the point that she was afriad that if she did it (which she did) there would be those - LIKE YOURSLEF - who would find exceptions between every letter of the law. She simply tightened up. The fact was that she never changed her rules. People weren't following her rules, and she just decided to enforce them. Since when does taht need a totally new set of rules?

    --Mr. P :cool:
  2. Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 5
    You want your link? Here it is:
    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2069650

    "We reserve the right to restrict certain users from posting in the non-spoiler forum, such as users whose names contain spoilers and those with spoilers in their signatures."

    That "such as" clause is not exclusive - it is only examples. There could be more.

    As I've stated: you're not going to get an apology from DLM, from what I've seen. So just GIVE UP, my friend.

    --Mr. P :cool:
  3. Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 5
    Points still open for YOU, Ter:

    #1
    -----

    I think that you're looking at the analogy from the wrong direction. You were banned - found guilty - and then DLM decided that perhaps the sentence (IP banning) was a little harsh, and removed the sentence except for being banned from posting in NS. If that's called being considered innocent and being placed on parole, I don't know.

    The way I see it, it's metaphorically being placed on death row, and then the attorney genral deciding to put you on parole. Where-oh-where did DLM declare that you were innocent?

    To quote Chyren:

    "Post proof or retract."
    -----

    #2
    -----
    Define "Justice" and "a resolution to this matter".
    -----

    #3
    -----
    And wehre are these comments of DLM's that you are retorting? I see you retorting others', but I see none of DLM's. So why are you retorting everyone else's?
    -----

    #4
    -----
    Like I said, ignorance is no excuse under the law. Do you think that DLM could send a PM to every member of this site so that they should know the new rules? It would take FOREVER! SO why do you think you should get special treatment?
    -----

    --Mr. P :cool:
  4. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    "But can't you discuss them in SA? Why not?"

    Why can't you post in Community? Why not?

    "Why isn't SA good enough for you?"

    - Opinions on outcomes of the OT and spoiler-related questions can be answered in NSA without NSA posters being aware. Unbiased opinion, I suppose

    "Are there peopple there that you're friends with and want to discuss the upcoming movies with who won't come into SA b/c they're unspoiled?"

    - I have many good friends in all forums. Everyone has specific talents that I enjoy. Many people don't want to come into SA. That is why I created that thread to start off with. I have even refused to divulge information on EpII to NSA members - ask Joey7F.

    If you can please provide me with the rules as you see them as I don't think were are going to progress any further without them

    "However, the correct action over this type of thread is already underway which is a discussion about how it should be handled. This is what should have been done to start off with."

    So what do you suggest? Would you be opposed to having the thread be in misc and patrolled by fellow SA citizens?

    - I proposed a solution to IronParrot. So you don't have to read the thread in MISC, it basically outlines that the Non-Spoiler Report should be kept in NSA under the eye of a SPOILER admin and where the rules are clearly stated in the first post.
  5. Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 5
    I think it only needs to be stated once - all this stuff was said by Ter.

    -----
    "But can't you discuss them in SA? Why not?"

    Why can't you post in Community? Why not?
    -----

    THe JCC is a totally different story. Of COURSE you can discuss NS topics in SA - and you can discuss them with spoilers too, which you seem so adamant about bringing into topics as well in NS. So what is against you discussing these topics in SA? Nothing, I suppose.

    -----
    "Why isn't SA good enough for you?"

    - Opinions on outcomes of the OT and spoiler-related questions can be answered in NSA without NSA posters being aware. Unbiased opinion, I suppose
    -----

    I suppose. But can't you just go read what they have to say in NS?

    -----
    - I have many good friends in all forums. Everyone has specific talents that I enjoy. Many people don't want to come into SA. That is why I created that thread to start off with. I have even refused to divulge information on EpII to NSA members - ask Joey7F.
    -----

    Then bring Joey7F in here. Take it for granted now that I will never take anything you say to be true until you prove it. Prove it!

    -----
    If you can please provide me with the rules as you see them as I don't think were are going to progress any further without them
    -----

    As I have said IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE UNDER THE LAW. You didn't know that there were stricter rules? Too bad! You should have had the initiative to find out what was going on when other threads were closed in DLM's crackdown!

    -----
    - I proposed a solution to IronParrot. So you don't have to read the thread in MISC, it basically outlines that the Non-Spoiler Report should be kept in NSA under the eye of a SPOILER admin and where the rules are clearly stated in the first post.
    -----

    NO, NO, and NO again! NOT in the NS forum!!!!!! I suggest a thread in SA, where only you and posters designated by you can post there, and the NS members too. It would be patrolled by the SA admins just like any otehr thread. Any post by a SA member other than those who you've designated would be deleted. That is my suggestion. Keeps it out of NS, gives you control over who posts there - so that you know that no one will come in and spoil people in the NS "non-spoiler" report thread - and also will have more mods there b/c there are a LOT more SA mods.

    --Mr. P :cool:
  6. ami-padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    "Do you think that DLM could send a PM to every member of this site so that they should know the new rules? It would take FOREVER!"

    No, but a post in the forum (and/or Announcements) isn't too much to ask, is it? I don't think telling the forum members what the rules are is such a huge favor to ask, is it? Especially if there's an interest in making sure everyone follows them? How are people supposed to do that if the rules that *are* posted aren't necessarily correct, the rules can be changed whenever, and there doesn't have to be an announcement of the new stuff?


    The 50 Ways to Ask Ternian Why He Dare Wants to Post in NS isn't as important as saying that we should all know the rules even if there's no obligation to tell us what they are, or when they change.


    Just my 2 cents...back to 20 questions.
  7. Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 5
    "No, but a post in the forum (and/or Announcements) isn't too much to ask, is it?"

    I happen to remember this thread:

    http://boards.theforce.net/message.asp?topic=2078690

    If this isn't a change in policy (actually enforcing it), I don't know what it is. ANd i repeat: She NEVER changed policy, DLM just started enforcing it. That doesn't need an announcement.

    "I don't think telling the forum members what the rules are is such a huge favor to ask, is it?"

    No, but it's not necessary. There are cons as well as pros to doing that - making an official set of rules to which exceptions can be dreamed up.

    "Especially if there's an interest in making sure everyone follows them? How are people supposed to do that if the rules that *are* posted aren't necessarily correct, the rules can be changed whenever, and there doesn't have to be an announcement of the new stuff?"

    DLM just started enforcing them. That doesn't need to be announced.

    --Mr. P :cool:
  8. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    #1
    -----

    See this is where you are wrong Mr.P. I am not guilty of what I have been charged with. I was technically banned because I posted a *spoiler* AFTER the warning in the V1.O thread. The fact of whether I ever posted spoilers in NSA is something that you guys have brought up.

    To quote Chyren:

    "Post proof or retract."

    - I have. Your point?

    #2

    "Define "Justice" and "a resolution to this matter"."

    Justice - having the truth told and being treated fairly.

    Resolution - having DLM admit she made a mistake so that my character is returned to what it was in the eyes of the public thus closing the matter.

    #3

    "And wehre are these comments of DLM's that you are retorting? I see you retorting others', but I see none of DLM's. So why are you retorting everyone else's? "

    - I have posted copies a copy of DLM's letter to the Admins about me. I provided all of her PM's to me. If you read the PM's and the letter you will clearly see she lies.


    "Like I said, ignorance is no excuse under the law. Do you think that DLM could send a PM to every member of this site so that they should know the new rules? It would take FOREVER! SO why do you think you should get special treatment? "

    - As of writing this I have seen the rules you posted. These are the rules I am talking about. So we are clear on this, yes?

    So I have read these rules, I was aware of them. Now, please provide examples of where I posted outside of these rules as of the date stipulated on those rules.

  9. Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 1999
    star 6
  10. Kadue Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2000
    star 5
    You're asking us to PPOR in terms of spoilers, yet how can anyone when they would have been editted or deleted?
  11. Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 5
    #1
    -----

    "See this is where you are wrong Mr.P. I am not guilty of what I have been charged with. I was technically banned because I posted a *spoiler* AFTER the warning in the V1.O thread. The fact of whether I ever posted spoilers in NSA is something that you guys have brought up."

    No. You were banned b/c you kept coming back about a thread that was already closed, and b/c DLM repeatedly warned you not to post spoilers, and you kept doing it. At least, that's the reason she gave for bannign you. So that's why you're banned - that's the reason behind her action.

    "- I have. Your point?"

    Where's the proof?

    #2

    "Justice - having the truth told and being treated fairly."

    Tell me what the truth is.

    "Resolution - having DLM admit she made a mistake so that my character is returned to what it was in the eyes of the public thus closing the matter."

    OR: Resolution - having Ternian admit that he is wrong and DLM is right.

    This is an alternate solution. It depends on who is right and who is wrong here.

    #3

    "- I have posted copies a copy of DLM's letter to the Admins about me."

    wrong! DLM did. Lie #1.

    "I provided all of her PM's to me."

    Post proof or retract. I don't believe you. PM CLeo and tell her to post them, and then I'll believe you, because then an objective party has intervened and reported. Remember: I trust nothing. I only believe what I see, not what i hear in this matter.

    "If you read the PM's and the letter you will clearly see she lies."

    Post the rest of the PMs.

    "- As of writing this I have seen the rules you posted. These are the rules I am talking about. So we are clear on this, yes?"

    Yes, we are clear. You claim that you are not applicable to the law b/c you didn't know about it? Well, that doesn't work. You are still guilty, even if you don't know the law.

    And besides, the reason that you were banned - and now kept out of NS - is because you kept coming back about those "non-spoiler" report threads. This has nothing to do with that.

    I think we need to get Cleo and DLM in here before we can figure anything out.

    --Mr. P :cool:
  12. LostOnHoth Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2000
    star 5
    This thread has gone full circle. It started off boring, got kinda interesting in the middle and is now dead boring again.

    Somebody please close it and spare Ternian and Mr P. the agony of having to post to such a tedious thread.
  13. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    -----
    "But can't you discuss them in SA? Why not?"

    Why can't you post in Community? Why not?
    -----

    The question that puzzles me about you and Mace Windy is: If you don't want to know about EpII, why post in an EpII forum? Honetsly, with no offence to anyone in NSA, but a lot - not all- of the posts there are simply community posts. I obviously like the posts that don't follow this.

    ------

    I suppose. But can't you just go read what they have to say in NS?

    - No. Sometimes I like to discuss certain aspects. This is a good thing.

    -----

    Then bring Joey7F in here. Take it for granted now that I will never take anything you say to be true until you prove it. Prove it!

    - I think Joey7F has already mentioned it. If not I will PM him for you and get a reply.

    -----
    If you can please provide me with the rules as you see them as I don't think were are going to progress any further without them

    - Mr.P I think my last thread will answer this.

    -----

    NO, NO, and NO again! NOT in the NS forum!!!!!! I suggest a thread in SA, where only you and posters designated by you can post there, and the NS members too. It would be patrolled by the SA admins just like any otehr thread. Any post by a SA member other than those who you've designated would be deleted. That is my suggestion. Keeps it out of NS, gives you control over who posts there - so that you know that no one will come in and spoil people in the NS "non-spoiler" report thread - and also will have more mods there b/c there are a LOT more SA mods.

    - If you have an issue here, lets take it to the MISC thread. I know you'll agree on this at least.
  14. Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 1999
    star 6
    I was talking to Tony, he needs to PPOR or I will ban him.

    ;)
  15. Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 5
    LoH: We're just coming to some policy decisions here, man! Give us some time!

    "The question that puzzles me about you and Mace Windy is: If you don't want to know about EpII, why post in an EpII forum? Honetsly, with no offence to anyone in NSA, but a lot - not all- of the posts there are simply community posts. I obviously like the posts that don't follow this."

    Perhaps we don't want to know anything concrete, but we might enjoy discussing it based on what happened in the OT, TPM, known influences on GL, etc. Perhaps we want to discuss it but don't want to be spoiled?

    "- No. Sometimes I like to discuss certain aspects. This is a good thing."

    OK. I can't argue here. But if what DLM says if true - which I don't doubt - then there's more to this than just spoilers. It's an attitude, too.

    "- I think Joey7F has already mentioned it. If not I will PM him for you and get a reply."

    Let me reiterate: PMs can be made up. People can't. Bring him in here. A PM doesn't work.

    "- Mr.P I think my last thread will answer this."

    No. DLM did not make a change in rules, I repeat, DLM DID NOT MAKE A CHANGE IN RULES!!! SHe just wasn't enforcing them, and started doing that. That does not deserve an announcement. Everyone should have been following them, anyway.

    "- If you have an issue here, lets take it to the MISC thread. I know you'll agree on this at least."

    That works.

    --Mr. P :cool:
  16. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    Mr.P,

    Now we know we are talking about the same rules, I offer this question to you, DLM, Mace Windy and any other person who is listening:

    Can you please provide proof where I posted a spoiler that lay outside of the Rules Of The Forum?

  17. Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 5
    BTW; I won't be back 'till morn, so anything that you say won't be conceded. I won't be able to retort yoru retorts until I wake.

    --Mr. P :cool:
  18. Mr. P FanFic Archive Editor, Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2000
    star 5
    "Now we know we are talking about the same rules"

    I beg to differ. We are talking about the same rules, but we're not talking about the same *rules*. You see, the RUles were in place before, but the thing was that they ewren't being enforced to their full extent. So, in reality, before DLM's crackdown, the rules were a bit more slack, even though the official rules were more strict.

    So there are the same rules - but the rules being enforced are different. Your thread broke many rules that were not being enforced.

    "Can you please provide proof where I posted a spoiler that lay outside of the Rules Of The Forum?"

    So you want me to post spoilers here? Nice try, Ternian. You post proof that you DID NOT post spoilers or retract. Go through every single post of your thread and point out how each and every piece of information you posted fits inside the rules.

    Of course, I can't oversee that b/c I don't wnat to be spoiled. So what do we do? It works the same way - if I go looking through your thread, when I find spoilers to post here, I'd get spoiled. We've got doublethink, people!

    --Mr. P :cool:
  19. Darth Dark Helmet Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Dec 27, 1999
    star 6
    If it's not Scottish, it's crap.
  20. yodaman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 1999
    star 5
    A person should be innocent until proven guilty. I think it's up to the accusers to show proof.
  21. Ternian Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2000
    star 4
    Mr.P,

    Hmmm...then shouldn't you believe your fellow NSA members when they say there were no spoilers posted?

    Sounds like stupidity otherwise.
  22. ami-padme Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 1999
    star 4
    You gotta love a forum where there's no obligation to post the rules (people might twist them, oh no!), and where you have to prove that you haven't done anything wrong, rather than the other way around.


    Someone posted a while back that this whole thing was tempting them to go look at spoilers, simply because it makes the NS forum so utterly annoying...I have to say I understand the sentiment.


    Ah well.
  23. yodaman Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 1999
    star 5
    Listen Mr. P. Ms. Mara is human. As human beings we all make mistakes and in this case it really does seem clear she made a mistake. Almost all the evidence points towards Ternian, and just about none points towards him. I really don't know what to say other than that. I'm not saying Ms. Mara is lying. I seriously doubt she would do anything like that. I'm just suggesting she may have misinterpreted the situation and reacted rashly. That happens. I understand you would want to side with her and protect her, but honestly, if you look at every detail of this situation her words don't have much ground to stand on and you shouldn't blindly take it at face value. Believe me, I've seen just about every one of Ternian's post when they originally happened. I've seen how other members of the spoiler community have laid hints of spoilers all around which has cause a lot ruckus in the forum. I had a very vocal voice against these people and asked them to stop alluding the spoilers. At the same time though, I was very much aware of Ternian's posts and I saw that unlike others from that forum, he was able to conceal the details fairly well and so I and pretty much everyone else in the forum really had no complaints about the thread. Perhaps Ms. Mara saw complaints like mine and figured it was Ternian doing the spoiling. I don't know. Ask anyone if they were spoiled by any of Ternian's posts and I'm not sure you'd find anyone. Most of Ternian's accusers are people who don't even look into his threads. Of course I like Ms. Mara. Just about everyone does. But that doesn't mean she's always right. I don't like being "against" her, but sometimes you just have to do what's right. Ternian certainly has a right to defend himself. Anyone in his situation would. That's just part of human nature to want to do so and it makes little sense to question that. The only important thing in this situation is that right is done, and that only thing we should be worried about.
  24. Crystena77 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 1999
    star 4
    I agree the 20 questions thing turned into a schoolyard debate. And it detracts from the point at the heart of this situation.

    The PMs posted by Ternian contradict what has been said. And yet there has been no rebuttal. There SHOULD be one. I do not wish to be found guilty of something on this forum, be banned and restricted in my priviledges, with no evidence behind that banning.

    I'm not saying that Ternian is correct in that he was unfairly banned, because as Bra and NB! said, I wasn't there or have all the facts. Nor am I saying that this 20 question back and forth thing isn't tedious, boring and doesn't help the situation.

    But the issue at the heart of this still remains.
  25. Joey7F Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2000
    star 4
    Mr. P, I am here.

    I absolutely, 100% unequivocally confirm ALL of what Ternian has said. Ternian and I have had many conversations regarding Episode 2. I am a nonspoiler that likes to know things like:

    1. Planet Names
    2. Designs and locations
    3. Character names(with an exception, but too late now(it got it from a spy report, NOT TERNIAN))

    Ternian on SEVERAL occasions has told us this is a paraphrase:

    "I am not going to answer that question, why it may be non spoiler, aspects of it will ruin surprise sequences."

    Ternian has always been helpful and cautious. He doesn't want us to get spoiled, so he takes extra measures to stop mild spoiler inquiries if they have bigger implied spoilers attached in anyway. This not only in the Non-Spoiler report, but also in PMs.

    Ternian, Green Cross and other members to a great service to those of us who like to know more than people like Windy(see sig).

    These people that are complaining are what we call spoiler virgins. It would be like having a forum where you can not talk about sex at all, and then someone gets pissed because they talked about making out. IT MAKES NO SENSE!

    --Joey
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