Non-Star Wars fan fic forum - Forums now open!

Discussion in 'Communications' started by NYCitygurl, May 2, 2008.

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  1. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    I think I understand the legality behind those issues. It is interesting though. A member of this board could post a standard science fiction short story and merely claim that it takes place in the Star Wars universe (when it has no correlation to GFFA.) It seems absurd.

    -Seldon
  2. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2002
    star 9
    The fanfic boards are too big for the mods to check every story, but that's not allowed, and in theory someone will catch that an report it.
  3. Jedi Trace SouthEast RSA

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 1999
    star 6
    I can only speak for the existing Fan Fic forum, but we do not encourage linking to fiction outside of TFN for precisely that reason. Links to fics are just like any other links on the board in that the content to which they link must adhere to the TOS. In the case of Fan Fiction, that means that links to fics portraying explicit same sex relationships would not be allowed.

    All of our Fan Fic Indexes link to stories posted at TFN.

    Discussion of mature themes is not limited, but it must also remain ?family friendly? in content.

    Does that answer your question? :)


  4. ellybeanjay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2000
    star 4
    Kind of, but I guess my question was more of a wider one. Because there are some boards on the JC where you CAN post to fiction that portrays explicit same sex relationships, so I guess I'm wondering where the line is drawn, and how that would play into the proposed new board.
  5. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2002
    star 9
    I'm not familiar with those boards or those stories. The above (barely-there hints) is what would apply for this, same as in regular fanfic.
  6. ellybeanjay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2000
    star 4
    In YJCC at least (and I'd assume Amphitheater) links to clips from television shows and movies that have same sex relationships aren't edited at all. I also want to say that I've seen links to books that have the same, though I can't think of specific examples. There's also discussion it as well, though that's probably not as relevant as it's been determined that discussing off-board fics about same-sex relationships are okay, so long as you don't link to them.
  7. Jedi Trace SouthEast RSA

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 1999
    star 6
    My understanding is that the proposed forum would institute its own regulations and not necessarily abide by what is or is not allowed in other forums. Linking to clips from TV shows and books is quite different from writing and posting fan fiction of the same content on a privately owned site.

  8. ellybeanjay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2000
    star 4
    And that's why I'm asking about linking to slash fanfic, rather than writing it itself.

    I'm really not trying to be difficult, I'm just wondering where the line is drawn when it comes to linking to slash, as some forms are currently allowed, and other forms aren't.
  9. Jedi Trace SouthEast RSA

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 1999
    star 6
    I can only say that we do not allow linking to explicit slash Fan Fic in the existing Fan Fic forum and that the proposed non-SW Fan Fic forum will set its own rules which, from what I understand, will follow similar guidelines. I cannot speak to what the non-Fan Fic forums do and do not allow, sorry. [face_peace]




  10. Dingo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2001
    star 5
    Actually, as of Revelations it's out and out spelt out as to the nature of their relationship. The wording of the rule quoted comes from January 2003 and has not been revised at all since.

    As to the subject of the thread: giant can of worms. Pandora's Box even. But not my call, so ....
  11. ellybeanjay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2000
    star 4
    So can someone who can speak for the potential future forum give an answer? Since linking to slash fiction is allowed in other parts of the board, which rules would the new forum follow?
  12. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2002
    star 9
    NSWFF will follow the same guidelines as fanfic, so probably not; I'll see if I can get a definite for yuo.
  13. ellybeanjay Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2000
    star 4
    So then what would the reasoning behind that decision be, since everywhere else you can link all other forms of family-friendly slash? Can people who post there link it in their sigs? Where is the line drawn, and why?
  14. ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 8
    How much support is the formation of this possible new forum actually garnering? I haven't read all the way through the thread in the actual FanFic area, but it seems like the majority of response in the YJCC and Comms have been centered around the "Slash"issue which seems particularly silly rule.

    If that's the way the owner wants it, than fine there's nothing you can do about that. However, it seems that a lot of the people that would want this forum would like this rule to be a little more relaxed, or in a lot of their eyes it seems they don't see the necessity for a new forum.

    If there's really an adequate demand for this new forum, you really should be directing the interested users in here to debate the pros and cons of it's creation in a central forum where all users of the boards can give their opinion on the matter. That is what Comms is here for, no?
  15. Darth-Seldon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 17, 2003
    star 6
    It is inherently unequal treatment to allow for the description of heterosexual relationships but to prohibit any mention of same-sex relationships. This is a private site, subject to the owners--but at the same time it shocks the conscience that this is an issue. Regardless of how we spin the policy--it is discrimination. A discrimination and prejudice founded on utter intolerance.

    I'd like to see that entire policy re-evaluated. I'm not just speaking of the fanfiction forum, or the proposed forum. As ellybeanjay rightly points out, the current policy is inconsistent. You ought to devise a more coherent policy which applies to all forums. What is permissable in one, should be allowed in another.

    -Seldon
  16. Jedi Trace SouthEast RSA

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 1999
    star 6
    rhonderoo, the Fan Fic mods and the Fan Fic Archive editors approached Mr. Wise last summer after the publication of Sacrifice to ask if the existence of a same sex relationship in the published EU would/could change the rules for Fan Fic. He said no. That's why the wording of the rule hasn't changed since 2003. Not our call to make. :)




  17. ApolloSmileGirl Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2004
    star 8
    Cool, I think that's been established about a zillion times over.

    Now. How about actually having users that you think are, or will be interested in this possible new forum, come in here and discuss the the pros and cons of it, like Comms is here for?

  18. Pallas-Athena TFN Fan Fiction Archive Editor

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    star 4
    As a fanfic user, and an archive editor, I'm pretty confident in saying that every fan fic writer that wants the forum will live with the current slash rules as they are, whether they like them or not, and most who don't want the forum haven't been arguing against it because of the slash rule, but for other reasons - like the disruption of SW purity.

    I'm not going to really state my opinion on the slash rule, because it's my job to enforce Philip's rules either way. But I think a lot of non-fan ficcers aren't really understanding what traditional "slash" is. It's two canon heterosexual men written as engaging in homosexual, explicit sex by heterosexual women. It is written to be sexually tantalizing to a female audience. It has nothing to do with gay rights, anymore than a man watching lesbian pornography. Given this traditional view of slash, you can see why Philip wouldn't want it on a family friendly site.

    As of yet, there is no official term to differentiate this sort of story from stories featuring either canonically gay couples or even out of character heterosexuals that have a more meaningful alternate universe homosexual relationship that doesn't involve explicit sex for explicit sex's sake. You can read the wikipedia article on slash; there's also a nice section on the problems of the term's definition.

    Given the ambiguity of the term, it's no wonder that the line becomes blurry between what is and isn't appropriate for a "family friendly" site. If fan ficcers can't figure it out, how could Philip Wise? The mods have started to use the term SSR to differentiate between homosexual relationships and explicit sex, which is great, but it is by no means widely used in fandom yet. Until it is, and there is some clear, universal boundaries on what SSR is and isn't, there is going to be confusion. Homosexual-based talk outside of fanfic is unburdened by these traditions and terminology, which is probably why the rules on that type of discussion is much more lax in other forums.

    Now I don't know Philip personally, but I believe that simply calling him a homophob simplifies a rather complex issue of fanfic terminology and culture.
  19. harpua Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2005
    star 8
    How is fan fic complex?

    They're stories written by fans... really nothing more. Being a writer myself, I can laugh at the way writers are so very self important, but really, it's fan fic. You're not creating some masterpiece pulitzer prize winning work of art.. it's fan fic posted on the internet. :p

    I think Phil Wise does come across as homophobic, some people wont see this, because they are not affected by it. It's a silly and unnecessary rule. Say Phil Wise decided that interracial couples were not allowed in fan fic... people would be outraged. This is kind of the same difference, do you see what I mean?

  20. Jedi Trace SouthEast RSA

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Dec 15, 1999
    star 6
    Well said, Pallas-Athena. =D=

  21. Pallas-Athena TFN Fan Fiction Archive Editor

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2000
    star 4
    Whether or not you personally believe in the validity of fanfic culture doesn't stop it from existing, unfortunately, any more than some random friend of mine thinking SW fandom is stupid will stop the existence of this board.

    No one would disagree with you in saying that Philip would be branded a racist if he disallowed interracial relationships. But, at the same time, there is currently no fandom subculture that widely exploits interracial relationships as a sexual fetishism, so there is no fear that sexually explicit material based solely on interracial relationships would ever find its way to the JC.

    I'm not arguing one way or another that Philip's decision in this matter is morally right, just that it is not wholly without an influence based in actual fandom culture.
  22. Jaina_and_Jag Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2003
    star 5
    If a homosexual relationship shown "explicitly" (that's not really the word I want, but I can't think of another :p ) can be called "a sexual fetish or fantasy," then couldn't a heterosexual relationship?

    I think that either one could be called that and that is in unacceptable to censor one versus the other.
  23. Andalite-Bandit Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2005
    star 6
    All of this jibber jabber about fan fiction "culture" and its "complexity" seems pretty irrelevant. All you have to do is message Captain Phil and say "Yo Phil, disregard what you know of the term 'slash,' nobody wants to put explicit shenanigans up on your website, but people think you ought to be able to allow the existence of homosexual characters even if they are in a relationship."

    If he's still like "no, never", well that's irrational and homophobic but he won't change his mind so that's that. If he says "Oh...well fine," then good for people who want to write these characters and good for the JC taking one step towards rationality.
  24. obaona Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 4
    Andalite-Bandit, the discussion has been made many, many times about whether to allow slash fanfiction. The answer has always been no. The argument has been had here in comms, and in the fanfiction resource board. There have even been petitions. I think fanfic users in general understand this, because we're naturally invested in our own forum and know what's going on. I understand that you think it's a simple issue, but it's not, and history has shown this. Frankly, any fairly large group of people are going to have a culture and any issue that isn't black and white is going to have complexity. I'd really suggest you go and find the prior threads regarding slash fanfiction before arguing further - I don't think there's any need to cover ground already covered. (It was painful enough the first several times. :p )

    Jaina_and_Jag - if you go and find articles on fanfic, 99% of them are on slash, just because a lot of people don't understand it. :p That's what Pallas-Athena is talking about. Fanfic in general across the web has no consensus about why slash (meaning writing two heterosexual characters as homosexual) is written - for arousal, to support gay rights, or just to subvert canon heterosexuality. So yes, it's different. I'm not saying that you can't consider it nevertheless wrong, but the issues are more complex, I think. :)
  25. NYCitygurl NSWFF Manager

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 2002
    star 9
    Whatever the wording - slash or SSR - we use right now (since many use them interchangibly) when the MS sent a request to Wise to allow gay characters in fanfic, just the ones that are gay in canon or characters that fanfic writers make up, he said no.

    And yes, there has been quite a bit of interest even without SSR couples.
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