CT "Noooo" in Return of the Jedi

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Charlie512, May 23, 2013.

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  1. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    Apr 26, 2009
    star 4
    Correct. As early as his 1977 Rolling Stone interview he spoke about it being only 75% of what he wanted. And yeah, the original plan for ESB & ROTJ was just a restoration & re-release, but with work gearing up for the PT, it's obvious that they got carried away.

    TBH, I love the original version of SW/ANH because of its rough-and-ready style, not despite it. It worked back then, made a fortune, and taken in context as a film made in 1976/1977, it works now. If anything, the original version of SW/ANH dates less when compared to some of the dodgy stop-motion effects in ESB & ROTJ, the Tauntauns being a prime example.

    I do understand the desire to keep these films alive as credible, acceptable entries in a franchise that is still ongoing (as opposed to remaking them), but that could be done far more subtly than what's been done. Blinking Ewoks? Come on...
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  2. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    I like the original SW OOT version more too, because it really comes off as more gritty, darker movie in many respects. The additions (when the Luke/Obiwan's Landspeeder enters Mos Eisley) give it a more cheesy effect because it sticks out like a sore thumb from the real locations in 1977.
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  3. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    I always thought it was one of the best scenes in the saga. We're watching a man behind an expressionless mask, camera fixed on him tightly, emote inner turmoil. John Williams' score doesn't hurt. It said so much without saying a word.

    Then they changed it to make it say a word. That word being "noooooo". Utter ruination.

    A good musician knows what notes not to play.
    Last edited by SweetZombieJesus, May 24, 2013
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  4. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    What makes great filmaking is not spelling out every word to the viewer, that is why this change was so meaningless. Just the camera panning on Vader is enough information for the viewer to come to the conclusion that he doesn't want to see his son suffer anymore. It's just like showing the Wampa in the ESB/SE, even Lucas admitted in the DVD Commentary that the scene maybe more haunting by not showing him and hearing him screen in the backround, yet he still made the change? :_|
  5. Darth_Nub Saga, Classic Trilogy and Film Music Manager

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    I saw even more in that closeup of Vader - his entire dark past flashing past the eyes hidden behind that monstrous mask, conveyed simply by the far more rapid, human movement of his head than we were used to seeing up until then. The added verbal outburst is complete overkill and undermines the sheer power of the purely physical gesture which follows - when he changes from an evil, possessed machine back into a human being attempting to right at least one wrong deed that he's committed.

    There was simply no need to reinforce or elaborate upon Vader lifting the Emperor off his feet and hurling him down the reactor shaft. It was perfect as it was.
    Last edited by Darth_Nub, May 24, 2013
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  6. ezekiel22x Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2002
    star 4
    If "big nooos" were some fundamental sin of dramatic storytelling, I wouldn't be able to watch any Star Wars film. In terms of pure visceral reaction, I think it makes sense that a parent wouldn't stand silent while their child's life is under direct threat. Yeah, I get the conflict aspect. But that conflict of inner emotion up against an ordained duty to a particular side of the Force has likewise had its moments during the course of five prior films (okay, maybe four given that ANH Vader is pretty one note). It works fine for me that the inner conflict is slightly less emphasized in favor of a moment of Anakin's outward expressions of humanity.
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  7. Vthuil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    I happen to be of the opinion that these are "noooooooo" good either. The last thing Star Wars needed was a retconned instance of this cheesy trope.
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  8. classified Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 24, 2005
    star 4
    When I heard about this I was expecting it to be the worst thing ever; but huh... it's not actually *that* bad. If this had been in the original film I don't think anyone would be complaining about it now.

    Sure, you might say that the fact it wasn't in the original film means it shouldn't be there now, but as someone who grew up with the Special Edition VHS farting box, if I were to now watch the original theatrical releases, I would find a lot missing, for the worse.
  9. Charlie512 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 1
    Yes we would be complaining now even if it had been in the original version.

    Just like a bunch of people have criticized Vader's "Nooo" in Revenge because it's pure narm despite it being in the original version of that film.

    You assume too much.

    The "Nooo" is dumb original or not.
    Last edited by Charlie512, May 24, 2013
  10. Rachel_In_Red Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 12, 2013
    star 2
    You mean Lucas put "Noooooo!" in ROTJ, too? :rolleyes:

    After watching the clip, it's not as bad as the "Nooooo!" in ROTS, but (like a lot of changes) I prefer how it was done originally.
  11. MOC Yak Face Moderator

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    Jan 6, 2004
    star 4
    Bless him, but nothing really surprises me with George anymore. It's like "bring my shuttle" Perfect as it was, but nooooooooo, had to go and change it...
  12. Darth Eddie Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 14, 2013
    star 3
    Screw it.

    I like big "NOOOOOOs", cuz it's straightforward, unambiguous, and requires no level of sophistication to understand.

    I also don't have a cheesyness-filter in my film-viewing goggles - if I did then they'd just get clogged with cheese constantly, because its everywhere.
  13. Qui-Riv-Brid Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 18, 2013
    star 1
    Actually I love it. I think it works so well. I mean I can take it either way but in the Saga version it ties in so well to the end of III which is the point.

    I don't know about you but to me when I watch IV-VI I am watching a fallen Anakin Skywalker in a encasing that traps him.

    Strictly based on the movies alone IV-VI leave so many questions so many things left out which the PT fills in about as well as you possibly can while also making individual movies (unless you made them 3 hours each to add all kinds of side stories and history).

    I don't know where the exact start of "Noooooo!" as a comic riff was. The Simpsons I guess but remember that it all started with ESB in the first place!

    I guess no one watches Luke scream "Nooooo!" without laughing now?

    That's the thing though. I really can't at all go so far as to call it perfect. It isn't. If the shuttle had been in their already and he took it out I think it's fair to say that you'd then not like that change.

    I don't think the movies are perfection in the least. I like them. They are very good but nothing is perfect anyway.

    The only thing I would say that should have happened is that their should be the SE's or as I would call them the Saga Editions as opposed to Special which are the versions that tie I-VI together then the original versions should be available to see those iterations of the story.
    Last edited by Qui-Riv-Brid, May 25, 2013
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  14. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    If people want symmetry between ROTS and ROTJ, I'd much rather see them rework/eliminate the NOOOOOO in ROTS. That whole scene is a parody from the point Vader asks about Padme (words Vader should never say -- "Padme", "Snuffleupagus", "Titicaca") I don't know how anyone can watch it without laughing. And I'm a big fan of James Earl Jones, but that Nooooooo, was that really the best take they could get?
  15. Seagoat Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2013
    star 4

    Because it's depressing. You think of something flashy to say after you've lost literally everything you love, by your own hand, and are bound as a slave to an evil emperor and forced to live in perpetual suffering for the rest of your life.
  16. Charlie512 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 1
    That's the point though. It's such a depressing moment and then that "Nooo" hits you out of nowhere. It's so ridiculous and over the top that it's sort of funny in of itself, which IS BAD for a moment that is NOT intended to be funny. It turns the moment into pure narm thus (kind of) ruining it.

    For RotJ it completely ruins the moment (in my opinion) and for me it doesn't exist.
    Last edited by Charlie512, May 25, 2013
  17. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2
    It's supposed to be depressing. But that's my point, it was so badly done, it could have been done a hundred different ways, any of which would have been better.

    Someone so steeped in evil at that point would not ask about Padme. Vader already dove head first into the hate pool. He would not feel an ounce of regret. He'd be like, "F*ck it". Breaking out of the restraints came off as laughable. Stumbling off the table came off laughable. Hayden's visual performance arching his arms up while JEJ's NOOOOOOOO was overdubbed was laughable. It all just came off the worst way possible and it was the complete opposite of what the birth of Darth Vader should have been. Instead of Anakin disappearing into Vader, they ruined Vader by turning him into Anakin. Anakin from AOTC.

    [IMG]
    Last edited by SweetZombieJesus, May 25, 2013
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  18. Charlie512 Jedi Master

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    Dec 17, 2011
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    Anyone ever in a dire situation? Press here to release your pain!
    Last edited by Charlie512, May 25, 2013
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  19. Vthuil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    Not laughing out loud, but I certainly never took it very seriously. The only really well-acted "Noooooo" in the films is Obi-Wan in TPM, and even there it still seems cheesy and over-the-top.
  20. Team Padme Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 4
    It does show that Vader is really good deep down inside but it's just awful, pointless and unneeded. Everytime I watch the 2004 version on DVD I always feel like the "nooooooooooooo" is still there.
  21. Granger Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 1
    Pointless addition that detracts from the scene. It telegraphs his intentions and softens the impact of the moment when he takes action.
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  22. EvilQ Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 8, 2013
    star 1
    Dreadful.

    Pretty sure this was George's way of thumbing his nose at fans of the OT one last time. At least, I hope it's the last.
  23. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

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    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2

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  24. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I love it. The scene worked splendidly without it, but now, Anakin has been more humanized. His reawakened emotions shine through more clearly and that makes his return from the dark side stronger.
    I also like the symbolism of him turning to the dark side with a rather pathetic "Nooo" and returning from it with a more forceful one. In ROTS, he gives up and in ROTJ, he takes action.

    He didn't. It's a different recording - one that fits perfectly into ROTJ, IMO. It's like it's always been there!





    - It's on the outskirts.
    - Good. How far is it?

    /LM
  25. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    Nah, it just another example of a director who added something because he doesn't feel the audience is smart enough so everything needs to be spelled out. I love movies where some things are left to the viewer and the director doesn't telegraph every emotion. It worked well in 1983, and there was no need to change it.

    I always think about the movie 'Witness' and how the director says in the commentary that he didn't show the conversation between Harrison Ford and the Amish boy because if he had done his job during the movie, the viewer would know EXACTLY what was said.
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