CT "Noooo" in Return of the Jedi

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Charlie512, May 23, 2013.

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  1. Darth Dnej Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2013
    star 1
    I think this may be the worst change ever made to a Star Wars film. If it isn't, then the Hayden Christensen ghost is.

    Why do I despise this change? It is extremely unnecessary. All the acting that was needed was provided with Vader's gestures, the powerful music and the sound effects. Also, it makes Vader sound like a dumb, whiny wuss.

    This irks me to no end because Vader's redemption may be my favorite scene in the whole Saga.
  2. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    It's not about spelling things out. I just sense Anakin's humanity to a much higher degree and that's why I strongly approve of the addition.
    The fact that the recording IMO fits so well with the style of ROTJ certainly helps, as well.





    - Please tell your master Sifo-Dyas that his order will be met on time.
    - Tell your sister you were right.
    /LM
    Last edited by Lars_Muul, May 27, 2013
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  3. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    So did the scene work for you from 1983-2010? If it did, then why the need for change? If it didn't work you, then I could understand your stance on the change.
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  4. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    Not going to "like" this because I'm actually all right with the Hayden ghost, but otherwise... yeah. Things like Han shooting were never really that significant until anti-change people made them into rallying cries, but Vader's redemption was one of the absolute pivotal moments of the OT, one of the things that tends to get cited as a favorite moment even by people who disliked ROTJ overall. It's just incomprehensible to me why Lucas would think it needed changing at all, let alone a change like this.
  5. Charlie512 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 1
    Exactly, it's the CLIMAX of the SAGA. Everything prior has been building up to this moment. The fate of the galaxy hangs in the balance. If Darth Vader chooses the Dark Side, Luke dies, Palpatine wins and the galaxy stays shrouded in darkness. If Vader chooses Luke, well we know what happens.

    It's probably the most important moment in not only STAR WARS but in film. It's such a shame George Lucas felt the need to change and ruin the scene.
  6. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I've always loved the scene, but I think it's even better now. You see, I don't take issue with changes just because they aren't needed. It's the end result that I'm concerned about. If a change improves a scene in unexpected ways and elevates it far above where it was before, then I'm all for it.
    I can certainly understand your desire to keep things the way they were, especially where improvement was never asked for. I'd also love to watch a high quality HD rendition of the very first editions of these movies, but only for nostalgic reasons. In the end, I'll still prefer the current edition of the Saga because it gives me more.
    With that said, there's nothing wrong with nostalgia. It's a very powerful feeling and the driving force behind many great things. One should never underestimate its power!





    - You underestimate my power!
    - I MUST obey my master.

    /LM
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  7. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    I hope you're not saying (I genuinely can't tell here) that you think nostalgia is the only reason anyone would be opposed to this change. Or any other change, for that matter.
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  8. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    Oh, no! I'd never assume such a thing. I can only speak for myself. I am well aware that many fans feel that the first editions are superior in every way and that's fine with me. In some cases, not all, it might have to do with nostalgia and I just wanted to point out that if that's the case, then that does not in any way invalidate the opinion of whoever is speaking. No matter which way you look at it, it all comes down to personal preference and how that's been affected by experience.





    - You're going to need me on this one, Master.
    - It's going to be rough, pal. I didn't want to speak for you.

    /LM
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  9. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2

    I don't like the original scene because of nostalgia. I like it because it was perfect in the first place, and mucking with it ruins it. I don't feel it improves the scene. AT ALL. In fact I feel it ruins it.
    Last edited by SweetZombieJesus, May 28, 2013
  10. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    How come nostalgia is always used in SW movies, yet I never hear that for other old movies??? I love the Godfather the first time I saw it, and still love it today, is that because of nostalgia? I love Raiders of the Lost Ark just as much as I did when I saw it as a kid, is that because of nostalgia? I love Caddyshack just as much as I did when I first saw in the early 80's, is that nostalgia too???

    We love those older movies, including the OT movies because they're GREAT movies, and that is what great movies do, THEY still work for the viewer 20-30 years later! ^:)^
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  11. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    I agree. I don't know why you never hear about nostalgia in discussions about other old movies, but the only reason I brought it up is that I mentioned it as my reason for wanting to watch the first editions of these films.
    As I said, there's nothing wrong with nostalgia and it doesn't invalidate anyone's opinions. Why would it?





    - Remember what you told me, about your mother and the sand people.
    - I have no memory of my mother. I never knew her.

    /LM
  12. ThatsNoPloKoon Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2013
    star 1
    I'm on the side that the scene was brilliant before the change and adding the "nooooo" is awful. Vader's turmoil and indecision was perfectly clear in the original scene and it's a testament to how good that scene is that they were able to convey that with an expressionless mask. The change makes the scene feel cheesy and corny. I think this another case of GL deciding the audience is too dumb and needs every implication or subtlety to be made as obvious as possible.

    That said I'd gladly let Vader scream NOOOOOOOOO for a good twenty seconds if it meant Hayden Christensen's creepy glare being removed from the end of ROTJ.
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  13. edog37 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 20, 2005
    Return of the Jedi was the weak sister of the Original Trilogy so anything GL could do to step it up was fine by me. Though the real point is this...Star Wars belonged to him. He could do what he wanted. He took the risk & hit the jackpot. I don't begrudge him at all. I have no issue with having Hayden Christensen at the end because it no longer made sense to have Sebastian Shaw there. He bridged together the prequels to that moment, so it stands to reason that Hayden would be there. Plus, it isn't as if Sebastian Shaw was taken out altogether. He is still there at the moment Anakin dies which is the tragedy portion of the saga. I always thought it stupid having Vader just standing there looking back & forth like a moron. Showing the inner conflict in any fashion brings everything full circle...
  14. SweetZombieJesus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 12, 2013
    star 2

    How on Earth does it "stand to reason" that Anakin's ghost would be a 25 year old who Luke has never seen? He's probably younger than Luke.
  15. tulwinn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2011
    It makes no sense to me because when Luke took the helmet off, thats not who was under it. Why would Anakins force ghost be the same age as he was at the end of ROTS. How would Luke even know who he was? It made sense to him to have aged. Ironically with all the retconning he shouldn't be there at all.
  16. _Catherine_ Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 16, 2007
    star 4
    Mine too, but probably not for the same reason.
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  17. Darth_Kiryan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 13, 2009
    star 4
    terrible doesn't even begin to describe this
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  18. Visivious Drakarn Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 2013
    star 2
    It's good either way. The moment Vader turns to Palpy, we know that he's not clear on the issue of killing Luke. So when he says No, that gives us a hint that he broke. And then he does what he does.
    It was good to me before, it is good now.
  19. MRCynical Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 7, 2008
    star 1
    Abominably awful. I mean I get what he was trying to do - show that this is the 'reawakening of Anakin', that he's free of Palpatine's deception (the original Nooo! being when Palpatine told him he'd killed Padme) and so on, but just no. It's as if JK Rowling released a new edition of Deathly Hallows where Voldemort gets beaten to death with a rubber chicken (excluding the fact that the Deathly Hallows ending was slightly anti-climactic).

    It doesn't help that, pre-vandalism, this was my favourite scene in the entire saga.The epic crescendo of John Williams's score, the look of dawning comprehension on the expressionless mask as he realises that Palpatine was lying to him from the start, and then Vader's silent self-sacrifice.
    Last edited by MRCynical, Jun 3, 2013
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  20. Chris Pennisi Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 3, 2013
    i'm a die hard star wars fan, ESB being my favorite, and when i saw the change of vader saying "no", i was surprised. i'm actually pretty torn! i think the first "no" is dumb, but the 2nd "nooooo" is a reaction that shows his feeling and emotion. BUT, i like the original as well, so i guess i like both sides of the coin! my blu-ray has the added"no" and my dvd player at work has the original, so i watch both...and kinda enjoy both sides of the coin....
  21. Charlie512 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 17, 2011
    star 1
    That's good that you enjoy both. Unfortunately for me it completely ruins the scene. But different strokes for different folks I guess!
    Last edited by Charlie512, Jun 4, 2013
  22. sith_rhino Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2007
    star 1
    I don't like it, but it doesn't bother me all that much either. The only Lucas change that really bothers me is Greedo shooting.
  23. sith_rhino Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2007
    star 1
    Well, OK, the Hayden Christianson force ghost is a bit annoying too, because, for somebody watching the original trilogy first, they'd be thinking "huh? Who is that?"
  24. Carbon1985 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 23, 2013
    star 3
    1. Inserting Hayden as a Force Ghost is the single worst change of the OT movies.

    2. Greedo shooting first is ridiculous too.

    3. Jedi Rocks takes me right out of the movie as I wonder who decided to put that song.
  25. mvk Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 5, 2013
    I think Hayden as the Force Ghost works because that was the last time Vader/Anakin was truly Anakin/Jedi, so that's who would be standing alongside Obi-Wan and Yoda. Just my take on that change.
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