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CT "Noooo" in Return of the Jedi

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Charlie512, May 23, 2013.

  1. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    Is "Nooooooooooo" ever good? Anywhere? As someone said earlier, the way that they were able to convey so much conflicted emotion when the character's face is an expressionless mask was very impressive. Why mess with it? I know... because he can! As for the Hayden ghost, I've never liked it. The man who redeems himself at the end of ROTJ has lived through hell as part of his journey to that redemption. That experience needs to be reflected by the force ghost.
     
  2. SweetZombieJesus

    SweetZombieJesus Jedi Padawan star 2

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    Apr 12, 2013

    Then who saved his son and threw the Emperor down the shaft?
     
  3. TheDarkLordess

    TheDarkLordess Jedi Padawan star 3

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    Jun 5, 2013
    I agree that the "Nooo" in ROTJ wasn't really necessary. It's strange and doesn't fit very well, but staying silent in in a situation like that is a little weird as well. I mean c'mon, he's a human, not a robot! Of course, the original scene was better and the emotions were shown even then, but Lucas probably had his reasons to add the "Nooo".
     
  4. TheDarkLordess

    TheDarkLordess Jedi Padawan star 3

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    Jun 5, 2013
    As for the "ghost" thing, I think that it doesn't really matter, since it's the same damn person, but again, it wasn't a necessary change. Lucas wanted to do that and he did. Besides, it's not that tragic.
     
  5. Carbon1985

    Carbon1985 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 23, 2013
    I've been through this a million times with friends, and the Hayden force ghost makes NO sense. The whole point throughout the ROTJ movie is that Vader is conflicted, and Lucas was trying to show that there was just an ounce of good still in that Yoda/Kenobi never believed was there. So what he is essentially saying is that Anakin/Vader ARE the same person, and the good Anakin never died on Mustafar. If Anakin died on Mustafar, then who is conflicted in ROTJ????

    So essentially it is 60 year old Anakin/Vader who conflicted during ROTJ when Luke is talking to him on Endor, and it is 60 year old Anakin/Vader who is questioned by the Emperor whether on whether he senses Luke. And it was 60 year old Anakin/Vader who throws the Emperor down the shaft when he is trying to kill his son. To then show 25 year old Hayden Christenson as a force ghost DEFEATS the purpose of the whole ROTJ movie because it is the older Anakin who essentially saves his son, and the point is his younger 25 year old soul never died.

    The older Anakin (Sebastian Shaw) should be the force ghost, because HE is the one who saved Luke from the Emperor!!!!
     
  6. mvk

    mvk Jedi Knight

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    Jun 5, 2013
    Maybe the thinking is that throwing the Emperor down the shaft returned Vader to his true Jedi self, last seen manifested as Hayden. It works for me.
     
  7. Carbon1985

    Carbon1985 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 23, 2013
    Then Kenobi and Yoda are going to be pissed that they have to sit in their afterlife as old guys where Anakin gets be there in his 20's. :confused: So the message of SW to all the jedi is, "Don't be a good guy your whole life or that is the way you'll look in the afterlfe, but if you turn to the darkside when you are still a good looking guy, then you will never have to worry about looking like an old man in your afterlife" ;) Gotta love that message! [face_laugh]
     
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  8. Deputy Rick Grimes

    Deputy Rick Grimes Jedi Grand Master star 6

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    Sep 3, 2012
    Anakin was 46 when he died so he wasn't 60 ;)
     
  9. Carbon1985

    Carbon1985 Jedi Knight star 3

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    Apr 23, 2013
    Before Lucas made the PT, Anakin & Kenobi were supposed to be late 50's/early 60's during the OT, hence why he used actors that age.
     
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  10. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 17, 2003
    Yes, yes! To Carbon1985 you listen!! :p Kenobi being only 57 when he died and Anakin being only 46 when he did are due to PT ret-cons.

    To be exact ( "Minutiae alert!! Minutiae alert!!!" :p ), circa ROTJ-1982/1983 era continuity, Anakin was supposed to be 60 when he died, and Kenobi was supposed to have been 70 yrs old when he died. :-B


    edit:

    [face_laugh][face_rofl]
     
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  11. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Dec 17, 2011
    I disagree because Hayden Anakin represented all that a true Jedi hero isn't supposed to. I associate Hayden with being a murdering psychopath so him being with Yoda and Ben at the end is just wrong for me. It's one of the worst changes and I cannot repeat cannot watch that version of the ending.


    It's like the equivalent of having Charles Manson's face next to Martin Luther King and Abrahan Lincoln for example.
     
  12. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004
    If it must be Hayden for the sake of trilogy cohesion and George thinks that Shaw is too old, then so be it. But he needs to age Hayden for that ghost scene so that the redeemed man gives the appearance of having lived through the life changing years which culminated in the redeeming acts of ROTJ. The very young Hayden sends the message 'it never happened'. An older man suggests 'it happened, but it's forgiven'.
     
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  13. Charlie512

    Charlie512 Jedi Padawan star 1

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    Dec 17, 2011
    Exactly best point I've ever heard on the matter.
     
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  14. tulwinn

    tulwinn Jedi Knight

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    Apr 28, 2011
    Weirdly the Noooooo from Luke in ESB is the worst one for me. He chose to jump and accepted whatever happened next, the added nooo makes it seem like he changed his mind and was like, "What have I done??? noooooooooooooooooo!"
     
  15. tulwinn

    tulwinn Jedi Knight

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    Apr 28, 2011
    He probably wanted to but the technology didn't exist at the time.
     
  16. sith_rhino

    sith_rhino Jedi Master star 1

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    Jul 9, 2007
    I think Lucas should have put himself in as the Force ghost.
     
  17. The Hellhammer

    The Hellhammer Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Nov 4, 2012
    That scream and changing Boba Fett's voice in ESB are the most needless, poorly thought through and badly done changes of all.
    It sticks out like a sore thumb and is really dumb, there is no other word to describe it in my view.
    It's plain stupid. It was a very obvious afterthought and changed just for the sake of changing something.
     
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  18. MOC Vober Dand

    MOC Vober Dand Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jan 6, 2004

    He would need to CGI some height onto himself for saga continuity, but other than that, yeah, why not!
     
  19. _Catherine_

    _Catherine_ Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Jun 16, 2007
    Like that would really stop him.
     
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  20. anakincol

    anakincol Jedi Master star 3

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    Jul 28, 2009
    I actually think that if he put in just the first no and left the second out it would have worked better. The simple NO in one syallable to me is more powerful then the NOOOOOOOOOOO!
     
  21. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 20, 2013
    I liked it better without the "No." Film is visual medium and so it is said that if you can do it without dialogue you should. I'm not sure that's really true, but I know I liked the earlier version more.

    I don't think the No's ruined the scene. I think Luke's "No" in ESB is much worse, and that used to get made fun of, but people don't think that Luke's "No" ruined that pivotal scene. Actually, I think it shows a little bit of a double standard. For the OOT, people get used to bad things and sort of have the response: "It's the OOT. I'm supposed overlook this awkward part of the film. It's the OOT afterall." For the SE or the PT, a lot of people sort of have this response: "It's the SE or PT. I should expect perfection and every awkward part RUINS the film. It's the PT after all, and we know GL has sold out and sold his soul to Satan." The "No" in TESB and the "No" in ROTJ both aren't that good, but they don't ruin anything for me.

    One thing that did seem weird with the above gif of the "No" in ROTJ is when Vader says the 1st "No." He shouldn't say it as he's turning towards Luke. He should say it right before he turns back to the Emperor as if he's just made a decision and so he's acting on it. I don't know if the gif has the sound slightly out of synch or if it's in SE that way. I'll have to check that out.

    I don't like the "No" in ROTS. However, I don't know what else Vader should've done. Maybe he just should've yelled in rage. He has to do something big at that moment.

    I don't like Hayden's addition in ROTJ, but I think for kids, especially who watch the Saga in the order of 1 to 6, his addition is better. Hayden is who they think of when they think of Anakin. And healthy ghost Sebastian Shaw looks so different from the pasty faced scarred up Vader that I think some really young kids wouldn't even recognize who that guy next to Yoda and Obi is. So, I think that change is better for kids.
     
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  22. TOSCHESTATION

    TOSCHESTATION Jedi Master star 4

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    Jan 17, 2003
    One problem with that analysis: Luke's scream from TESB was not in the "O-OT".


    Hmm...as an eleven year-old in 1983, I could make out that the ghost of Anakin was the same guy in the un-masking scene. [face_dunno]
     
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  23. Darth Nerdling

    Darth Nerdling Force Ghost star 4

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    Mar 20, 2013
    I'm pretty sure Luke's "No" after learning he was Vader's son was in the original TESB. Does anyone know about this?
     
  24. Iron_lord

    Iron_lord Force Ghost star 8

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    Sep 2, 2012
    I thought they were talking about a scream as Luke is falling down the Cloud City shaft. I recall reading that this was added in.

    But this:

    "Search your feelings, you know it to be true!"
    "Noooo! ... no! "

    is pretty classic.
     
  25. Theron Solo

    Theron Solo Jedi Knight star 1

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    Oct 31, 2012
    I'm not a big fan of it personally. Thought it was unnessasary and stupid. I think George was overthinking way to much with adding it.