Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Charlie512, May 23, 2013.
Posts, not posters. -mod edit
I actually liked the Vader "Noooo" scream at the end of ROTS. It gave a "***t just got serious" moment for me, because seeing such a stark contrast between the stern Vader we are so used to seeing and a now emotionally distressed Vader was ...disturbing.
However, the Noooo in the end of ROTJ is just awkward. The silence of Vader, the glow of lightning on his mask, Luke screaming in agony, Williams' score sending chills down your spine... the Nooo wasn't really BAD, but just not necessary in conjunction with all that was already going on.
Thats not the no that people are referring to, they are talking about the no when he falls down the shaft.
I've been a staunch defender of GL's changes to the movies, but this is one of three changes I think was unnecessary and downright sloppy (the other two being Han shooting first and the re-edit of the Blu-Ray version of AOTC). Not only did the scene play out so much better without the two "No" (heck, Lucas even gives a good reason why in the commentary which ironically was left intact), but it was made in such a sloppy fashion with the first "No" being audibly lifted from the earlier scene in ROTJ when Admiral Piett asks Vader if he "should hold" the Tydirium and the other "NO" that is audibly lifted from ROTS.
Saw this floating around on The Star Wars Underworld, sums up my feelings! http://www.starwarsunderworld.com/2013/05/opinion-why-vaders-noooooo-makes-ending.html
Personally, I'm only "bothered" by Luke's "No!" after Vader reveals that he's his son. I don't even remember him saying "No" when Luke falls down the shaft, so I clearly wasn't bugged by it. In the end, I think some of the "No's" are excessive, but I don't think they ruin any scene. The worst one in my book is the one after Vader learns that Padme is dead, but I still like the scene a lot.
Not many of the changes really `ruin` a scene for me except Luke's as he fall down the shaft. I've always liked that he fell silently, that he did it defiantly, he even smiles before he does it. To then start screaming nooooo doesn't make sense to me.
I can accept changes like the addition of monster to the cantina scene better because I can agree they weren't possible when they were filmed. I know he was always unhappy with them, dialogue changes bother me more because they were possible at the time. George should maybe trust that the younger him knew what he was doing instead of second guessing him.
I like the NOOOOOOOO in both films, and here is why I think it works...
In ROTS, Anakin becomes Darth Vader after slicing off Mace's arm. The movie still shows some scenes where Darth Vader seems remorseful and even saddened by what he has become. It seems like the Anakin part is still struggling with the Darth Vader part all throughout the end of ROTS.
After he is saved on Mustafar by Sidious, he is pieced together into the suit. He asks Sidious about Padme, which is when he learns that she is dead, along with his child. He lets out a very sad, plaintive "Nooooooooooo" which exhausts the last remains of Anakin out of his personality, Anakin is now completely dead, as there is nothing more for him to live for. Darth Vader has truly been born.
Fast forward to ESB/ROTJ...Luke can sense the conflict in Vader. He can sense that the Anakin personalilty is still alive, faintly. Darth Vader fights to stay in control, but I think the scene in the throne room, that "NO" is Anakin finally re-awakening, thanks to Luke. Anakin has finally come back, and Darth Vader is no more.
So, I see the first "NO" as exhausting the spirit of Anakin, and replacing it with Vader, whereas the second "NO" is the spiritual re-awaking of Anakin...
....Or maybe I just have too much time, and am bored at work...
The Throne room sequence is my favorite scene in the Saga, so the original really worked for me as well, but I actually like what this change has done to the 6 part saga arc as a whole...
I like the first "No" in ROTJ quite a lot. It has a nice serious, pissed sound to it, and makes it feel as if this moment where the Emperor tries to kill Luke is just the last straw in a whole lifetime's worth of pent up frustrations and outrages against his master. It cements the continuity of the series, and makes it something more than just a father protecting his son, but a full conscience coming back to life.
The second, longer "Noooo"? I don't like it as much. But I don't dislike it. And frankly I think it's a better sounding "Noooo" than the one in ROTS, more dragged out and ragged, more raw and truly emotional. It's a much better take, and I wish that Lucas had added it to episode III.
THANK YOU! This is pretty much EXACTLY how I feel about it. The ROTJ "Noooo" is honestly one of my favorite additions for this reason!
I never liked the change.
to me it seems like lucas lost his touch, look at the prequels - they could have been better, this add-on just killed a chunk of the movie
I think it's a disgrace. I don't need to have something I've been familiar with for almost 20 years to have that change so Lucas can spoon feed me the exact moment of transition between Vader and Anakin, it's redundant because we get to meet Anakin when the helmet comes off. I find it even insulting in some level, the fact that it is inserted, or should I say forced into the scene so it can match one of the most ridiculous moments of the prequels.
I feel sad for people that justify something like this by saying these details enhance and clarify characters' arcs and transitions. Star Wars fans are not dumb and they marveled 30 years ago when they saw it for the first time.
It can even be broken down in terms of the movies' acceptance and approval. The trilogy will always be better received than the prequels (for obvious reasons), so the fact that you insert a cgi dinosaur's howl and the "Noooo" tampers with the original and it's simply not cool. Most fans are not going to be cool with that. Some hard core fans will go out of their way to provide detailed explanations of how it works but I'm sure at the end of the day, nobody really wants these changes to be there. They accept them because they love Star Wars, but if it was up to them, if Lucas himself asked them about this change while editing the blu rays, they would've said "Noooo".
Wow. I'm sorry, but what you said was rather pretentious. Just because you prefer one trilogy over another does not give you the authority to undermine those who would disagree with you.
Least I don't have the Blu-Rays of the movies so i don't need to complain
I'm not even sure "pretentious" is a strong enough word here. As I've made pretty clear, I think the "NOOOOO" was a truly horrible idea. But I'm certainly not saying that anyone who does like it is just "accepting it because they love Star Wars" or something like that. If we're going to talk about things being "insulting", I think dismissing the idea that anyone could disagree with you in good faith is much, much worse than some poorly-conceived changes to a film.
Han Shoots first, Luke screams when he falls in Bespin, Vaders nooooo are examples of changes that alter how a scene feels. Cleaning up mat lines, improving effects, most people can live with those, but changing how scenes work is different. Before the nooo was added I'm betting almost everyone on this thread was happy with the scene, I mean did we REALLY need to know the exact second he changes his mind? We can visually SEE he changes his mind, this isn't radio.
Now we have
people who like the no(s),
people who like the first no but aren't sure about the second
people who like the second no but hate the second one
people who liked things the way they were
This is an improvement? Was it worth the changes to improve the scene for some of the audience to then conversely degrade the scene for others.
Thats my problem with these changes, it divides people who just loved the films into factions.
To be fair, Star Wars fans (and fans in general - it's why I've always had mixed feelings about organized fandoms) are a pretty fractious lot without any changes. But it's still a good point.
Bang on - but do the changes actually improve anything for anyone? Content-wise, are audiences in 2013 all that different to those in 1983 when it comes to making a very basic point? Was any of it so wrong that it needed to be changed at all?
(Beyond a bit of FX work that couldn't hurt to be tidied up just a tiny bit while leaving the original composition intact, of course)
Fair enough, I may have gotten carried away and I apologize to those that may have been offended by my comments, sincerely.
Not to justify my previous comments but to complement them in a positive light, I want to add that my intention has never been towards disregarding fellow fans, not at all. It is just that I have a really hard time imagining someone liking such a change, it's an exercise in empathy I haven't gotten through yet. In my own personal turmoil I think it's wrong for SO many reasons.
It's such an important part of the trilogy. It generates a discussion that shoudn't really exist because people loved it as it was, it unnecessarily divided the fan base.
Anyway, I deserve the "pretentious" label for my comments and sorry again for being so blunt. It was disrespectful and I'll try not to come off like that again.
Hey its cool, I ain't even mad!! I am just overjoyed that people are still so passionate about Star Wars that their emotions can't help but spill out.
I am not even sure it makes the scene in ROTJ better, as I think that scene is the best scene in the entire saga, but I think it better ties in the PT and the OT. Which is obviously the point of the "nooooooo" change, as well as the Hayden ghost change. So for me, looking at it from the overall saga perspective, I really do like these additions...
Maybe I AM just a Lucas apologist, but above all the OT were the movies I fell in love with. I can completely understand the ferver and passion people have for these films, and protecting the original "vision" of the creator....
I mean, I "DID" rush out and buy the original "bonus content" disks when they were on sale.....
The adding of the "NOOOOOOOOOOOOO" to ROTJ has also kept me from buying the Blus. Maybe if they drop the price...
I'm another traditional classic trilogy-lover that HATED it. I only saw it on youtube because I don't own the blu-ray...and I don't really want to own it, for the most part.