North Korea Discussion Thread.

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darth Mischievous, Dec 27, 2002.

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  1. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Sorry, KnightWriter. I wasn't trying to bait. I was just trying to be funny. :)
  2. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    I understand. At the same time, intentions are often hard to read through words, and reactions don't always match the intentions.
  3. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    I would kindly ask you to stop pulling out the anti-Americanism card.

    "Perhaps North Korea should clue in and join their old allies in reforming."

    That's the whole point of what I was saying, they cannot go onto that road of reformation like China, without first being certain that they are safe. As it stands, they've got guns pointed at them, and they're being labelled as part of an axis of evil by the world's sole superpower. That's not to say in ANY WAY, that what the regime does there is justified, or that the country isn't being ruled by pyschos in uniform. Just that if you want to stay peaceful with a 'madman' as you say, then don't call him such, and don't say he's evil out loud.

    "It has also been responsible for kidnapping, thats right kidnapping, Japanese scientists from the Japanese mainland. So quit with this poor North Korea crap already."


    No-one in this thread or the Iraq one has ever indicated that those regimes were good. What I and others are trying to do, is to make others aware that there's another side to the story. If you can learn to see the situation from the other perspectives, then you can understand motives and actions of those other parties. It's a simple concept, and right/wrong is irrelevant.


    "What about the concentration camps for bad little communists who need to be re-educated. Babies born in these camps become footballs, women who give birth are shot for that crime, people are beaten severely for just breathing, they literally are forced to eat rats because they are not good communists."

    PPOR. Can you say propaganda?

    "Oh my the US is an evil evil power for picking on poor little North Korea, shame on us, matter of fact we should just give them half our GDP, shouldnt we?"

    Can't we discuss this in a mature manner?

    "North Korea isnt exactly stable and its leader isnt exactly sane. People suffer at the hands of North Korea not the US, so sorry your anti-Americanism wont work here, so take it else where."

    lol. Sounds like you need directions, because you've overshot the landing strip, airport, even the destination country.
  4. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    Next bait or negative personal comment I see gets a ban. Stick to the issues.
  5. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    I would kindly ask you to stop pulling out the anti-Americanism card.

    This coming from the guy who in the Iraq thread was hoping for high American Casualties? :eek: I will stop playing the card when it isnt necessary to play it anymore, the old saying goes, if the shoe fits wear it.

    That's the whole point of what I was saying, they cannot go onto that road of reformation like China, without first being certain that they are safe. As it stands, they've got guns pointed at them, and they're being labelled as part of an axis of evil by the world's sole superpower. That's not to say in ANY WAY, that what the regime does there is justified, or that the country isn't being ruled by pyschos in uniform. Just that if you want to stay peaceful with a 'madman' as you say, then don't call him such, and don't say he's evil out loud.

    So North Korean gunboats attacking South Korean ships should make people want to quit pointing their weapons at the because? Please fill me in because I have absolutly no idea how that little act by North Korea deserves trust to put the guns down.

    No-one in this thread or the Iraq one has ever indicated that those regimes were good.

    Then why defend them? The length some people here on JCC has gone to defend North Korea and Iraq is astonishing. The old saying Liberty for All doesnt register for them, instead it seems very much like they are saying Liberty for me and me alone.

    PPOR. Can you say propaganda?

    Ok, but can you say "I was wrong Im sorry?" North Korean Concentration Camp Survivor's story

    You cant dismiss everything that goes against said regime as propaganda. You yourself just admitted that these regimes arent good then when people tell you stories of their atrocities the first thing you say is Propaganda. Read this womans story, you cant dismiss it as propaganda, you cant tell her she imagined the whole ordeal, or that the US paid her off to say this. The North Korean government is evil, there is no ands ifs or buts about it.

    Can't we discuss this in a mature manner?

    Can you go without trying to make every single move my country makes seem evil?

    Sounds like you need directions, because you've overshot the landing strip, airport, even the destination country.

    I can say I havent left orbit though.

  6. redxavier Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2003
    star 4
    "This coming from the guy who in the Iraq thread was hoping for high American Casualties?"

    lol, you didn't understand then, and you don't understand now. I won't bother to explain again.

    "Then why defend them?"

    We're not. We're questioning the methods by which the US and Britain go about dealing with these regimes. The end does not justify the means.

    "I have absolutly no idea how that little act by North Korea deserves trust to put the guns down."

    Not saying anything about trust, but that incident was created by the military build-up. It's an effect, not the cause.

    "Can you go without trying to make every single move my country makes seem evil?"

    I can't speak for others, but I don't. Evil is far too harsh a word to use in this way, perhaps reckless or wrong might be better, but not really.

    I'm not even sure why I'm bothering, I care about Americans, I generally like them, but if they're not interested in taking the advice of others and being at least cautious in how they deal with sadistic dictators, lest that the blowback cause another 9/11, then why expense time and effort?

  7. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Most people don't understand how stomped upon Korea has been since before our grandparents were born. Let me give a few facts (courtesy of Gary Leupp, history professor at Tufts University) that can shed some light on Korea:

    1. After the Russo-Japanese War of 1904-5, Japan acquired control over Korea, annexing it formally in 1910. In 1905 Japanese Prime Minister Katsura Tarô met secretly with U.S. Secretary of War William Howard Taft, producing the Taft-Katsura Agreement in which the U.S. recognized Japan's interests in Korea. In return the U.S. received Japanese recognition of U.S. colonial rule over the Philippines.

    2. At the Yalta Conference in February 1945, U.S. President Roosevelt and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin discussed the postwar future of Korea. Stalin advocated independence as soon as possible. Roosevelt advocated a trusteeship of 20-30 years, citing the example of U.S. rule in the Philippines

    3. In accordance with a wartime agreement that the USSR would enter the war with Japan following the German surrender, Soviet forces invaded Korea in August, advancing to the 38th parallel by August 10. They could easily have occupied the whole peninsula. Instead, they consulted with their American allies, who requested that they stop their advance at the 38th parallel, so that U.S. forces could in the next month occupy the rest of Korea. The Soviets agreed to the U.S. proposal.

    4. In August 1945 defeated Japanese forces formally turned over authority in Korea to the broad-based Committee for the Preparation of Korean Independence, led by Lyuh Woon-hyung, which in September proclaimed the Korean People's Republic (KPR). When U.S. forces under Gen. Reed Hodge arrived in Inchon to accept the Japanese surrender, they ordered all Japanese officials to remain in their posts, refused to recognize Lyuh as national leader, and soon banned all public reference to the KPR.

    5. As of 1945, most Koreans associated the majority of Korean big landowners and businessmen with the Japanese colonial regime. U.S. occupation forces relied upon this stratum for support.
  8. kasiel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    I think I might clarify something for Jedi_Xen...

    the gunboat shooting isn't really NK's fault...

    Our(=the South Korean) military has a military limitation line called the NLL (Northern Limitation Line) drawn on the Yellow Sea..

    It isn't a politicaly agreed line, but a internally drawn tactical limitation for naval operations by the South Korean Navy

    The problem is that when Korea was divided, no clear agreement was introduced by the UN regarding maritime boundaries simply because that

    this was before there was any "established" international law concerning this. (the final convention and customary law was settled in 1982)

    Therefore this issue was to be solved by bilateral agreement, but of course the North and South were enemies then and no direct talks between the South and the North commenced

    The military had to come up with their own patrolling borders and therefore made up their own solution of keeping all South Korean islands safe yet well beyond any North Korean threat = the NLL

    Unfortuantely, the 1982 convention's 12 league rule drew a different line from the NLL and there's been constant grumbling from both sides in places where they overlapped ever since.

    In fact, in 1999 we gunned down a North Korean destroyer for crossing the NLL killing 30 North Koreans, and there have been numerous close calls dating back to the 1980s.

    The issue always dies down because nobody wants tension to increase and because of the very nature of a "no-ship" zone, the zone is a very fertile fishing ground -

    meaning both the North and South are willing to let the issue slide and let the local fishing industry keep on fishing



    At the particular incident you were referring, the North Korean partrol boat was inside the 12 league line but also inside the NLL.

    Both sides thought that the other side was violating each other's territory. And the situation got nasty.

    Believe me, it happened before, it will happen again if the border issue is not settled



    So as the North sees it, the South is violating international law.

    As the South see's it, we need to establish an agreed border (but there are more pressing issues now)

    But, as the ill informed media sees it, it's just another provocation by North Korea
  9. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    There was something call the Korean war. If the US up and left NK would walk back in to SK. Not a very good idea. The US is trying to work things out with NK but it will be left up to NK to make the 1st move. In other words they if they really want peace they need to understand that walking in to someone else country it not the way to go around things.

    It was the same with Saddam. He had no reason to walk in to Kuwait. Talking with him would do no good because all he want's is power and will kill his own people and walk into other countrys just to get it. Just like Hitler did.

    To do nothing about these people is like walking a thin line between the light and dark. The world keeps falling into the dark. Instead of stopping the Hitler's, Saddam's and so on they want to leave them alone and hope they go way. Well that won't happen. I and many other would like it to happen but it won't.

    The leaders of NK will see the USA go home the minute it steps up and says they will not walk into SK again. The minute they say they will not make nukes or use nukes on Japan and China or any other country in the area. The minute NK steps up and really wants peace.

  10. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Gonk, why the hostility to North Korea? I don't see any reason to think that North Korea is going to launch an attack on the US. Why not just ignore them?

    Did you know NK has launched ballistic missile tests that have landed within the Alaskan coastline? Did you know they are working on missiles to reach the American west coast.

    Sure you don't think they're a threat. Now.

    Iraq and Iran are nowhere NEAR a threat level of NK. And they have relatively little reason to attain that threat level any more. NK has one thing on it's mind: reunification with SK, and they're going to do it on thier terms.

    In this case, THEY have violated international agreements. THEY are the ones talking war. That's a profound difference.

    B_S, there ARE in fact times you are dealing with states that are just biding thier time until they're strong enough to just take what they want. NK is one of those cases. You need look no farther than how China itself would really rather have nothing to do with NK anymore to acknowledge that.

    Spit in the face of Jimmy Carter and eventually it's going to come back at you. They violate the US agreement, the US stops upholding its end of the bargain because they weren't doing the same, and THEY threaten war?

    It's all nice you don't feel very threatened by NK, B_S. But what about in ten years after they finish the nuclear bombs they're making at this very moment? And they'll have the guts to drop them, too. NK is just plain crazy. The people are either brainwashed or about to be barinwashed. The number one occupation outside of the army is a prisoner in a Gulag. Saddam would have liked his people to believe he was this great hero, but his people were more than capable of independant thought. Saddam only ruled Iraq, he did not control it the way Jong-Il controls NK.

    It's only a matter of time. That is now clear to me.
  11. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    But why is North Korea a problem? I don't live in fear that North Korean troops are going to invade Colorado.

    Who needs to invade Colerado when you can nuke it?
  12. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Korea has gotten the short end of the stick for at least the last 100 years. The US has tens of thousands of troops on NK's border, and yet NK is being portrayed as the aggressor?

    Damn straight. Let's see, to start off with, 50 years ago, they WERE the aggressor. SOUTH Korea at first in the late 40's was threatening to invade NORTH Korea, and you know what the US did? It pulled out equipment from South Korea to ensure peace.

    And what did NORTH Korea do? It took advantage of that and invaded. Without provocation. So the US invaded, and then Doug McArthur went a little crazy, the Chinese got involved and a bunch of other things happened which have little bearing on today's overall situation.

    So that was 50 years ago. What has NK done in those 50 years to foster good will?

    -Conducted numerous kidnappings in Japan

    -Conducted missile tests

    -Conducted lethal naval engagements killing sailors

    -Sent agents to the US in the '70s to assassinate its senators

    -Violated SK airspace

    And what has the warmongering US done to NK? Two things:

    -Kept tens of thousands of troops on the border with NK to protect from INVASION (because oh yeah, NK has invaded in the past) which is offset against NK MILLION man army. Oh dear.

    -Conducted spy plane missions over NK. After they're sending agest all over the pacific rim. Oh dear.


    Get a grip man. To say NK does not wish ill-will to you is absolute denial. Wake up. Smell the napalm they're building. The people of South Korea might be very nice and once upon a time so might the people of NK have been. They might still be nice people today. But their leaders are preparing for nuclear war and it doesn't matter how nice they are.
  13. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Oh, no. Don't tell me the US army has to liberate the poor North Koreans, too.

    Actually, in this case, yeah, they do. Saddam oppressed his people not because he was a sadist, but when they got in his way. You have to expect that and give that a particular latitude because it doesn't mean he's nuts. He's an oppertunist. Even if Saddam got nukes, it's unlikely he would use them because his nation was already well-off. MAD would potentially work in that situation. It would work even better in cases like Iran and Syria where the people are at least educated.

    It's NOT going to work in NK. The people really ARE in that bad a state. Have you read any accounts of thier gulags? And these are not "What Saddam did 20 years ago once", this is "What Jong-Il did a couple years back and does every day".
  14. TripleB Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 4
    Not to be suprised, but Binary_Sunset left out some key information on the recent history on Korea.

    Items that jump to mind include....

    1) THe mandatory forced slave labor of practically the entire Korean people to help build the Japanese War Machine. Japanese Slave Labor is NOT like the way it was in the SOUTH of the UNITED STATES. You are talking about VERY long days, VERY hard work, VERY LITTLE rest or food, and Beheadings when you can't work.

    2) How Korean Females as young as 13 were taken out of country by Japanese Troops to be used as sex slaves by Japanese Troops thru out the 1930's and 40's to

    3) How Korean Athletes were forced to compete at the 32 and 36 Olympics as Japanese Athletes, against recognized IOC rules.

    4) More to come, gotta take off right now.
  15. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    That's the whole point of what I was saying, they cannot go onto that road of reformation like China, without first being certain that they are safe. As it stands, they've got guns pointed at them, and they're being labelled as part of an axis of evil by the world's sole superpower.

    Oh please. Guns pointed at them does NOT dictate foreign policy. The US and Russia has Nukes pointed at one another for 50 years and were still able to sign treaties. Don't go on about poor NK, because there IS no poor NK. They've brought this all upon themselves. 100%. NK was the only real absolute case where Bush called a spade a spade. Bush called them 'evil' after they've acted so irrational and completely hostile over the last 50 years. Oh no. Cry me a river. The US has done nothing except be there in SK in case of invasion. The US troops are not going to DO anything except get mowed over by NK. This was exactly the reason why the US had so many troops in Germany: they were not going to realistically stop any Soviet advance. They were there to be conquered and die so that Americans would be easier to get to thier feet and declare war on the agressor. Because you have to protect your allies against these people. SK does have to be protected. Note how the SK government doesn't even want the Americans so much as redeploying elsewhere on the peninsula.

    'Short end of the stick'. Come on. They gave themselves that end of the stick. Nobody has any culpability in this situation except perhaps Japan, Russia and China. And even those countries can no longer really be resonsible for what's going on. The US has only protected an ally.
  16. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Most people don't understand how stomped upon Korea has been since before our grandparents were born. Let me give a few facts (courtesy of Gary Leupp, history professor at Tufts University) that can shed some light on Korea

    Yes, B_S, I read all your points and it really is a sad story. And you know what? I'm going to give the same answer to NK that I give to the Israelis when they go on about thier hundreds of years of oppression at the hands of the Egyptians, the Romans, the Christians and the Nazis when discussing the phlight of the Palestinians:

    That's NO excuse.
  17. anidanami124 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 24, 2002
    star 6
    Gonk your last five posts have been very good. They have opened up my eyes and shown me just what NK is really like.

    I hope NK does not do anything that could lead us to another war.
  18. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Not to be suprised, but Binary_Sunset left out some key information on the recent history on Korea.

    And yes, that's all very bad. And guess what? Japan is also the only nation to have ever gotten nuked. Twice. At the end of the war thier entire society was rebuilt and restructured. So yeah, Korea went through some bad things at the hands of the Japanese. But it's not like the Japanese didn't pay for it quite dearly in the end. Maybe not specifically for Korea, but for the way they conducted themselves towards everyone in general. So this is why I have little overall sympathy for those who decry American conduct towards Japan in WWII, and eaqually why I have little sympathy for those who decry American conduct towards NK today. It wasn't the Americans who did any of these things.
  19. kasiel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    in reply to Gonk's suggestion...

    the US has a legitimate right to feel threatened by the North Korean nuclear program... but not in the way you think..

    A lot of people worry about the range of the new ballistic missiles, about being able to hit the west coast and all, and think the repeated test firing is thought to confirm it.

    But, contrary to what almost all people think, Kim Jong-Il is NOT stupid, and he's NOT crazy. He's only a desparate guy who's taking advantage of the situation. And that doesn't include suicide by attacking the US.

    What can he possibly gain from attacking the US? What can he possibly gain from attacking South Korea? Even more so, considering that if he bitches and moans, he can get almost anything($$) he needs.
    (If the US doesn't, eventually South Korea will give NK anything they need)

    The nuclear crisis is just another round of bitching, all the more sensible considering that the US is busy with Iraq, and they have the further advantage of suggesting their nuclear capability, which is a political statement on it's own.

    Reunification on their own terms is nothing more than propagana. All the more so because NK doesn't have the CAPABILITY to reunify Korea, and they know it.

    Bidding their time? maybe. But I doubt North Korea will EVER reach the position to fire nuclear missles at the US and think they can live it through.

    In fact, no country is crazy enought to make a nuclear first-strike against the US in a situation where they cannot deny responsibility (like firing them from their own territory). The smart thing to do would be selling missiles and payloads to organizations that would and deny the purchase.

    Therefore, the threat the US should be (and IS) worried about is NK selling those ballistic missiles and nuclear arsenals to the highest bidder. If Nodong-Daepodong missiles can reach the west coast from NK, think of what would happen if Cuba or some terrorist oragnaisation in Central America bought some. (In that sense, repeated test firing is.... advertisment)

    And remember, NK really needs the cash.

    The probem is that the ONLY COURSE OF ACTION AVAILIABLE is trying to talk it out with NK (which is what NK wants, by the way). Military options are very limited because Seoul is well within artilery range of NK troops.

    And besides, EVEN HAVING A PERSON IN STABLE CONTROL IS MORE THAN WE SHOULD EXPECT. Society there is at the verge of chaos because of years of famine. Much better a stable regime with nuclear weapons than a succesion of coups all fighting over who gets the missile key.

    So, in my view G. Bush is doing the right thing. Talk with them. But keep a close eye.
  20. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    Given the way the US throws its weight around, I find it hard to blame itty-bitty little countries from doing everything in their power to aquire nukes that can hit the US.

    Gonk, do you really believe that NK is going to nuke the US when it can? If we in the US should feel threatened by NK's handful of nukes, how should NK feel when the US has an immense nuclear arsenal consisting of thousands of missiles?

    Put it this way: What if the US and the UK were itty little countries, and North Korea was the world's superpower and gave an "axis of evil" speech that said the US, UK, and Israel were the axis of evil. Then suppose that NK invaded ("liberated") Israel, deposing its government. Finally, suppose NK kept-up its anti-US and UK speeches. Wouldn't you be quite afraid?

    (NOTE: I have no doubt that NK's government is oppressive. Most governments are. The NK government is the North Koreans' problem. I don't sit around and expect North Koreans to liberate me from my dictator, so why should North Koreans expect Americans to liberate them from their dictator?)
  21. kasiel Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 5, 2002
    By the way, I think that Axis of Evil speech WAS a bad move of the US.

    Of course North Korea has done some bad things.

    But was the outright announcement a SMART thing to do?

    What has it accomplished?

    It's done almost nothing than provide an excuse for North Korea to sour relations.

    Iraq was included, and soon after the US promptly begun preperations to invade Iraq.

    Wouldn't ANYONE feel threatened?
  22. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    What has NK done in those 50 years to foster good will?

    -Conducted numerous kidnappings in Japan


    That's Japan's problem.


    -Conducted missile tests

    So has the US.


    -Conducted lethal naval engagements killing sailors

    Whose sailors? Where did this happen?


    -Sent agents to the US in the '70s to assassinate its senators

    That's the senators' problem.


    -Violated SK airspace

    That's SK's problem.
  23. KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 6, 2001
    star 8
    That's Japan's problem.


    How so? If North Korea didn't send out kidnappers, it wouldn't have happened. That's like saying a murder victim is at fault for their murder.

    That's the senators' problem

    See above.

    That's SK's problem.

    See above.
  24. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    More facts regarding Korea:

    1. In August 1948 the U.S.-occupied zone of Korea became the Republic of Korea. The next month, the KPR operating in the north became the Democratic People's Republic of Korea (North Korea). Around this time there were many revolts against the U.S.-backed authorities in the south led by supporters of the original KPR. The biggest one was on Cheju Island, off the south coast of South Korea, where there was minimal Soviet or North Korean influence.

    2. In June 1950 North Korean forces attacked the South and by September controlled all but the southeastern region around Pusan. There was little resistance, and initially much cooperation amongst the South Koreans.

    3. The United Nations Security Council approved a U.S. proposal for war on North Korea. Even though both the USSR and China were on the UNSC, the proposal passed because China's seat was held by the pro-U.S. Guomindang regime headquartered on Taiwan, and the Soviet delegate was absent when the vote was taken.

    4. 4,000,000 people, military plus civilians, died in the Korean War.

    5. 54,246 American soldiers died in the Korean War.

    6. Between 1954 and 1960, about half of South Korea's government budget came from foreign, especially U.S., aid.

    7. Park Chung-hee, who had served in the Japanese army during the Second World War, participated in a coup in 1961, and then became president of South Korea in 1963. His rule, to 1979, was characterized by economic growth, martial law, censorship, political repression, and torture of political prisoners.
  25. Binary_Sunset Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 5
    KnightWriter, it's Japan's/SK's/senators' problem, not fault. I'm not saying Japan, SK, or the senators were necessarily at fault. I'm saying that those things were their problem.

    For example, if my car is stolen, it's my problem (not yours or anyone else's), but not my fault.
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