North Korea Discussion Thread.

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Darth Mischievous, Dec 27, 2002.

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  1. Singularity Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 2
    I continue to be confounded by why we are not taking a more aggressive stance with the North Korean regime. The situation in North Korea makes Iraq look like Disneyland.

    Consider the following:

    North Korea suffers until a despotic, brutally repressive "cult of personality" regime (it is not a communist regime anymore, if it ever was, it is not a country-wide cult indoctrinated to worship Kim Jong-Il)

    Thousands of children in the capital city of Pyongyang do not attend school during the day but rather practice formations daily for periodic parades in honor of Kim Jong-Il

    The capital city of millions, at night, is pitch black by 7pm due to lack of energy resources and the complete submission of the city's will to the government

    Two western journalists, on a very rare and very controlled, trip to North Korea to film a brief documentary reported this encounter. The reporters were travelling in a car from the airport to the location where they were schedule to film (heavily supervised of course). Their "minders", English-speaking North Koreans that had to remain with the reporters at all times, seemed to joke with the western journalists that Tiger Woods was not that good. The journalists begged to differ and asked if gold was a popular sport in North Korea. The minders mentioned how Kim Jong-Il liked golf and just the week before had shot an 18 round of golf in the 30s with 8 holes in one. The western journalists laugh as if to say "what, are you kidding?" The minders did not laugh and wondered why the journalists were laughing and said basically "Why are you laughing? its true."

    Since 1995 2-3 million North Koreans have starved to death

    Two-thirds of all North Korea children are severely malnourished and suffer from stunted growth and compromised biological systems derived from perpetual malnourishment

    In the wasteland countryside of North Korea, North Koreans have NO food at all during the summer months and live on wild plants, boiled tree bark, and food made from indigestable wild grasses and cornstalks.

    There are fields of corpses in the countryside of those who have died of starvation. Mass open air graves where bodies are stacked one upon the other.

    The government keeps an iron grip on access to the countryside where things are the worst. The only information comes from North Koreans who risk death to escape to China in the north.

    Chinese journalists were allowed in to tour certain areas of Pyongyang. Their guide glowed as she showed the journalists the technical materials that Kim Jong-Il made available to his people. The guide referred to the materials as "the latest in technical knowledge from the western world." The books were Commodore 64 guides.

    This place is a horror beyond all horrors. Its the holocaust on a countrywide-scale.

    Worse yet, the North Korean goverment continues to develop its nuclear weapons program. To hope for rational behavior from this regime is folly.

    What are we waiting for?

    I understand the Korean peninsula is a delicate situation. But the Middle East is also. I realize North Korea could have 1 million troops in Seoul very quickly and create a disaster situation. I realize China could get anxious but even China realizes the situation is bad. Do we only pick easy fights and let the atrocities continue if the fight might be hard? We'll take out Saddam's sons but not this Kim Jong-Il nutcase? I fault Republican and Democrat administrations for this. North Korea needs to be dealt with immediately. This situation is intolerable.
  2. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    why immediately? When you say "we" do you mean the US, or the world community?

    From a security standpoint, NK does not yet project its influence beyond the region. Like Cuba, it is effectively isolated from world events.

    NK is alreadt dependent on the US for grain and heavy fuel oil. There is no reason why they woul dwant to damade this arrangement.

    If you want to improve the human condition there, wouldn't that be a perfect job for the UN?

  3. Singularity Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 21, 2002
    star 2
    why immediately?

    20,000-40,000 people are dying of starvation a month. Every day brings the fanatic and unsstable North Korean regime closer to nuclear capability. Based on Bush's current reason for invading Iraq (first it was WMD then Al-Qaeda link then it was sparking a democratic revolution throughout the Middle East and now it is liberating the Iraqi people from a despotic regime), North Korea should be our next target.

    From a security standpoint, NK does not yet project its influence beyond the region. Like Cuba, it is effectively isolated from world events. On the issue of liberating the North Koreans this is a specious argument. And are you saying that if Castro announced he was developing nuclear weapons capability that we would not do anything?
  4. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    and it is the US's sole responsibility to prevent people from starving in NK?

    As I already pointed out, under the Food Agreement Framework, the US is already the biggest supplier to NK of red wheat and heavy fuel oil..

    The government is completely depdendent on these subsidies.. While the UN has a complimentary program, where are the other nations of the world?

    I don't think you understand the point of having a foreign policy. The goal is to not treat every nation equally, and arbitarily invade nations that you don't agree with.

    We have an active policy of negoiation with the NK government that has been extremely successful at limiting their influence.

    The Iraqi situation cannot be used to gauge the NK situation and vice versa..

    Iraq was re-examined in light of the 9/11 events. NK has always ultimately been compliant after negoiations.

    and to answer your question, we did take action in Cuba to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons. Remember October, 1962?

    After that successful display of brinkmanship, Cuba was contained..
  5. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
  6. BOBAFETISH Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 19, 2001
    star 5
    This was nowhere to be found when I posted that other thread.
  7. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Feel like re-posting your thoughts on 'wiping out North Korea'?



    Nuclear Brinkmanship
    Most analysts believe the threat was most likely to be a negotiating ploy, as the secretive state attempts to extract maximum concessions in return for ending its nuclear ambitions.

    But given the unpredictable nature of Kim Jong-Il's regime, few are prepared to dismiss the threat out of hand.

    ...Even China and Russia, North Korea's closest allies in the region and those most opposed to sanctioning the impoverished state, would likely turn against Pyongyang if it went ahead with a test.

    Investment in the region would be affected and Japan - China's main diplomatic competitor - might feel the need to bolster its defences, even to the extent of considering a nuclear arsenal itself.

    "China is especially critical (to North Korea), given their role today as a fuel and food supplier," said James Clay Moltz, deputy director of the Center for Non-proliferation Studies at the Monterey Institute of Strategic Studies.


  8. jedimasterkipdurron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2003
    star 4
    I believe one day North Korea will start and war which will kill thousands of Americans and South Koreans and our alliance will win and then there will be a united Korea and the Northern half can then start becoming more modern and not having most of its population die of starvation.(that's in the north)
  9. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Unless of course the war goes nuclear or China decides to activate its defense treaty, and we end up fighting World War III.

    Then things will be alot worse.
  10. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    NO WAY that the PRC goes to bat for NK again. Especially in a nuclear exchange.
  11. Darth Mulacki Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 1999
    star 5
    I agree Red-Seven, I dont think that China would never risk supporting NK in a war. The fiancial repercussions would be too servere, and IIRC China is not to happy about NK claiming that it has nuclear capabilities.


    -Mulacki
  12. jedimasterkipdurron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2003
    star 4
    Red-Seven:Yes China said they would actually support the US to stop North Korea from getting nuclear weapons!

    But the problem with China will be over Taiwan! Now THAT could turn into a nuclear war and WWIII!
  13. Darth Mulacki Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 1999
    star 5
    Why would a Chinese attack on Taiwan trigger WW3?

    -Mulacki
  14. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    The US basically has an agreement to protect it (Taiwan) which would likely result in a declaration of war by China. NATO is obligated then to respond. The war is unlikely to be a global war like World War II, but more of a regional one like World War I. It will be a world war because like the Great War, it will effect several countries and their militaries.

    If North Korea falls, China is likely not to have any allies. Vietnam hates China, Burma might go along with them, Russia has unsettled disputes with China, so does India both would likely find themselves allied to the United States in such a war, and both would be valuable allies.

    There it is World War III, more like World War I than World War II. Unless it goes nuclear.
  15. Darth_Punk Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 4
    I just think it is hypocritcal when the nations of the willing talk about Iraq being a threat and therefore go into Iraq, when N.Korea is a bigger threat and nothing happens. To me its all down to Iraq being a "soft target", and N.Korea would be a lot harder
  16. Jet-Eye-Blah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 5, 2002
    star 3
    To me its all down to Iraq being a "soft target", and N.Korea would be a lot harder


    There is this liberal political cartoon (which I can't place where I saw it) that has both Mr. Hussin and Mr. Kim standing side by side wearing T-shirts with words on them. One's T-shirt says, "Lots of Oil, No Smoking Gun." The other's says, "No Oil, Lots of Smoking Gun." I'll let you figure out which is which. :p

  17. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    See, you're right in a sense, but not in the way you think. Iraq's access to oil allows it, if unfettered, to finance huge amounts of military spending and weapons programmes, making it a regional threat. And the temptation to grab even more oil for control has grabbed Hussein twice before (the arabs to the south and persian fields to the east). The United States is not going to be possessing Iraqi oil, and it is a bit disingenuous to denounce it for taking actions which help stabilise and promote the global oil market, which helps EVERYONE, especially Iraqis.

    North Korea has no natural resources of merit to exploit, and it's only source of finance is counterfeit goods, weapons technology, illegal drugs, and probably now Nuclear weapons. It is unable to conventionally threaten its neighbors (except the first 30 miles of South Korea, which is in conventional artillery range). It is completely dependent on its neighbors for food and energy. As such, it can be engaged and influenced via non-military means, or so the theory goes.

    However, that theory has lost a lot of traction, as NK has gotten closer to a nuke test, and Kim has shown a willingness to starve several million of his people (famine's are in small part naturally occurring, but MUST have govt mismangement and neglect to occur on any scale...there has NEVER been a famine in a democracy), it looks like economic and energy carrots will not entice the regime.

    I didn't think a war was likely a year ago, but it is hard for me to envision any sort of resolution on this matter that does not involve force. If and when it comes to that, though, I think the PRC will be VERY cooperative, though they will demand (and receive) the power and influence to control 'putting back the pieces' in the North.

    SK wants nothing to do with it. Unification is a goal of many people, but right now a majority of SK (who live there still) are against any unification, due to the perceived cost.
  18. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Red's asessment pretty much describes the reality there, and illustrations why the above political cartoon, while worth a chuckle, doesn't accurately sum up the situation..

    To me its all down to Iraq being a "soft target", and N.Korea would be a lot harder

    What would make N. Korea, that much harder? Our military success in Iraq was no indication that they were somehow militarily backwards..

    North Korea's military is decades behind Iraq's. What they do have are large amounts of theatre-based missles, and an emerging nuclear program..

    However, and this is the key, North Korea has, for the most part, been open with their program, while Iraq was not..

    We know on a daily basis, the position of NK's missles, we know when they move them, and we know the locations of their developing reactors.

    It results from their differing goals..Save for the occassional hidden tunnel, North Korea wields its military influence to achieve results at the bargaining table.

    For NK, the perception of force, is more effective than the application of force..

    There is nothing that would be gained for NK by initiating military conflict, unless Kim goes completely mad, and orders his country into a desperate suicide attack..
  19. Darth Mulacki Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 4, 1999
    star 5
    One of teh reasons why it would be very dificult to attack NK is it position. The US can only deploy troops from South Korea or from coast. There is noway that China would ever allow an American military force inside its borders, and never in an amount necessary to attack NK.

    If they were to knock out the missiles and cannos aiming on Seoul, it would take a very fast and very heavy airial bombardement, bigger than anything seen before. IIRC there are close to eleven thousand weapon emplacements along the DMZ.


    -Mulacki
  20. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    ok...But why is that a big deal?

    Sure, I would agree that more then likely, any conflict on the penninsula is going to impact South Korea as well..

    Then what would NK do? Military force is the application of a policy, or a means to a goal.. No country uses force just because it likes to fight.. Maybe Homer's ancient Amazons did, who loved the sport of battle, but not too many others..

    What possible reasons would it have for alienating itself from the very entities it receives aid from?
  21. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    up for any further discussion

    (from the election thread)
  22. Special_Fred Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    Um...pull our troops out of the DMZ?
  23. farraday Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 7
    Yuo do understand what a DMZ is right?

    DeMiliterized Zone? By definition our troops are not in the DMZ, they're standing on one side of it watching the million members of the North Korean armed forces standing on the other side of it.


    The DMZ itself is actually something akin to a wildlife refugee.
  24. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    a refuge with a mine field....

    And actually, the administration is removing US troops from front line service in Korea, shifting them south.

    The redeployment started in June.

    When complete, it will mean that ROK forces will be patrolling the DMZ alone for the first time since the treaty.

    Here is one of the press releases:

    HERE
  25. Special_Fred Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2003
    star 4
    DeMiliterized Zone? By definition our troops are not in the DMZ, they're standing on one side of it watching the million members of the North Korean armed forces standing on the other side of it.

    Yes, that's what I meant. But why?

    And actually, the administration is removing US troops from front line service in Korea, shifting them south.

    How about "shifting" them back to the USA? At least then they'd be protecting our borders instead of other countries' borders.
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