not arrogant just set the bar too high

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by yaddidameen, Dec 24, 2005.

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  1. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    think about it, really sit down and think about it. attachment, the one issue that seems to be at the very nexus of the starwars universe. one rule, being able to live without it, being able to throw yours away, act as if it never exsisted. and this one rule was for all intents and purposes, a good rule, IF UPHELD. IF UPHELD. the order of the jedi stood for thousands of years, attachment causes too many unecessary problems, and leads to stick situations, with even stickier consequences for your actions.

    I have developed a certain respect for yoda's tenure as the grand master of the jedi order. IF UPHELD, this atachment rule would have benefitted the greater good of the galaxy. think of anakin letting go of his attachments to his mother, and padme. think of the wonders anakin would have been able to produce, think of the good he could have done, in some ways alot like jesus. well, not far from it. he could have done so much, IF he would have UPHELD the one rule. forego attachment.

    imagine a mace windu, who is thinking clearly and rationally when confronting the sith lord, imagine a mace windu that is more concentrated on finding the shatterpoint in his current situation, than almost blind with rage fighting against the man who abused and violated HIS republic. attachment. let it go.

    the very nature of this one rule, this one rule that seems perfect, seems so simple, so DUH!!! is that it could and never would work. the rule in itself is perfect, the logic there is undeniable, seriously, it really is bullet proof, with one small detail, IT'S NOT POSSIBLE!!!! yoda was asking the impossible, he was asking something that only he could ever hope to possibly achieve. life without attachments!!! who says that besides a green frog who's only shot in life is with yaddle!! LOL j/k (back to the point.)

    it just doesn't work. the bar is too high. there is too much involved with living, to much to do, to see. asking this one simple rule, just didn't work. the idea though is perfect. think about it, really, think about it.
  2. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    I agree. Buddhist monks are meditating and studying for a lifetime to accomplish the goal of "letting go of attachments". It is a life-long process that almost no-one ever manages to complete. The only ones who achieve it are Bodhisattvas, the enlightened ones. And those people manage to achieve it because they are living in monasteries.

    The idea that you can actually achieve detachment while living in a real society as the Jedi do - let alone to expect a 20 year old to have accomplished this - well, it just shows that there?s a severe lack of understanding and experience concerning what ?letting go of attachments? really means and requires. It is a goal you can work towards achieving it, and it most certainly isn?t accomplished by just having a teacher tell you ?let go of attachments?.

    As you say, the logic is perfect, and it works fine in theory. Maybe 800 years of study will be enough to achieve it. But not 13 years of studying while being exposed to life in a normal society, after having suffered childhood traumata in 10 years of a life in slavery. Yoda was asking the impossible of Anakin.
  3. Carnotaur3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2004
    star 3
    I think it all comes down to feelings. While your side has merrit, I would argue Anakin wasn't taught to express his feelings, accept them, and balance them. But becuase the Jedi didn't know how, they decided to just loose all attachment. You can't tell someone to do that. That doesn't just make Anakin a bad boy when he does have attachments, but he gets very stressed out with it because it's on his Jedi Conscience and he has the counsil riding his back.

    Ok, sure. You'll be alright if you take away those feelings. But being alright is nothing compared to being GREAT!

    Look, the reasons why Anakin turned, is because the Jedi (especially Mace) were waiting for him to just do something terribly wrong. Don't be mistaken, his ways of dealing with things were off and the Sith was tempting him, but the Jedi sealed the deal as far as I'm concerned.

    Yes, Obi-Wan did him wrong by not being more open as a Jedi should be (Qui-Gon Jinn).

    Yes, all of the Jedi were telling him the same deal as Obi-Wan (they've all been lies!).

  4. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    But becuase the Jedi didn't know how, they decided to just loose all attachment. You can't tell someone to do that.

    But they did, at least 10000 jedi have been told that, and it seems Anakin is the only one with the problem. Or where there others ??
  5. Malikail Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 17, 2004
    star 4
    this is an overly simplified point, while true, it is not all that was wrong with the jedi teachings.

    It was not just letting go of attatchments, but the fact that the jedi were in total denial about the basic nature of at least humans, if not living things.

    where are the others? Dooku left for morality and pride, ironicly becoming a sith and exactly what he hated later on. I'm sure there are many others, too bad the lost 20 landed on the cutting room floor along with most of the PT plot development.
  6. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    where are the others? Dooku left for morality and pride, ironicly becoming a sith and exactly what he hated later on. I'm sure there are many others, too bad the lost 20 landed on the cutting room floor along with most of the PT plot development.

    Oops, sorry. I was a little trigger happy with the keys. I meant, were (not where) there others with attachment problems. My guess is yes there were.
  7. Carnage04 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5


    I don't think it is in the emotional department that the bar was set too high. I think it was in the "You are the Chosen one and you are prophesized to defeat the Sith.... You will be all powerful" that set the bar too high. Tell someone they are the best and can do anything and they will eventually believe it. I can save my mother, I can teeter on the darkside and kill Dooku, I can marry Padme, I can do anything I want because I'm the CHOSEN ONE. The rest of these piddly Jedi don't understand.

    Don't treat the kid as special and he will be fine. For some reason I also get the feeling Mace and Dooku were also treated as special...

    Carnage
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi never discourage love or compassion. What they do discourage is developing emotional connections to people, the way Anakin did to his loved ones. The way Dooku did to Qui-gon. The way Luke did to Leia and Han. A Jedi who has emotional attachments run the risk of letting their emotions cloud their judgments. For the Jedi, they have great power. But that power can be corrupted by uncontrolled emotions. By having fear, anger, hate and pride. By being greedy, selfish, jealous, possessive and obsessive, a Jedi is vulnerable to the Dark Side. If they are left unchecked, disaster strikes.

    -Dooku had all these things. He wanted to be very powerful. He was afraid to see the galaxy fall into ruin. He loved Qui-gon and was angered by his tragic death. Dooku turned to the Dark Side because he couldn't accept the fundamental tenents of life. Because he couldn't let himself be the Jedi that he should be, when offered power by Palpatine, he took it. He took it because he was afraid and greedy.

    -Anakin could adapt if he put forth the effort. Qui-gon Jinn told him that being a Jedi was a hard life. It would never be easy. The life they lead, it does not afford them to be in a full time relationship. And when Jedi could be in that relationship, they were too vulernable to the Dark Side. Every Jedi who became a Sith did so because of their emotional connections to someone, their greed or because they were trained from birth to be this way. Yoda told him to train himself. Anakin should've approached it like he would using the Force to levitate an object. Or to fight with a Lightsaber. Spend time doing it. Meditating on the Force. When in doubt, use the Force. It will help you. It will not lie to you. When you quiet your mind, it will speak to you loud and clear. Anakin didn't even try to do it and that is where he fails.

    -Luke learned to adapt and fairly quickly, I might add. He was able to let go of his emotional attachments and accept life as it is. He realized the mistakes of his father before him. That you can love people, but you just need to control yourself. It takes time and effort, but it can be done. Luke loves, but it is an unconditional love. He is not asking or demanding. He has no reason to be greedy. He is accepting of his friends and their lives. He is not willing to sell his soul. Yes, it takes a lifetime to go without emotional attachments. But for a Jedi, it can be done. That's why Lucas said that if Anakin had been trained from birth, he could've learned to love the right way.

    In the end, one man loved too much. He just needed to dial back the love. To not confuse what he thinks he wants with what he really needs.
  9. sith_rising Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 7, 2004
    star 4
    The laws of the Jedi have worked fine for a thousand years. They problem is, they found the Chosen One too late in his life, let him spend too much time with a girl he was obviously attracted to, and kept him in a dangerous proximity to a very powerful Sith Lord. It's like telling a young man, "No sex before marriage!" and then sending him to an all-girls school. Something's got to give.
  10. mandragora Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 28, 2005
    star 4
    How good is a system of teaching if it only works fine for people who are taught from infancy? How good is a teaching system if it is not able to teach someone who has a different family background?

    And did it really work fine for all the millenium before, or is it just that no Jedi ever before had to face any real challenges - like coming to terms with a different family background, and having a "mentor" like Palpatine?
  11. Drac39 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 2002
    star 6
    The rule was flawed,it basically was set up to take away basic human emotions,but everyone has them and you can bury them but you can`t take them away.

    Good point about Mace I think he was more attached to authority than the Republic.

    Obi-Wan would never admit it but he was attached to Anakin

    You were my brother I loved you...
  12. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    the logic in this rule is undeniable, if this rule were upheld it would have worked. so no, i don't really see how the RULE is flawed. us beings humans and not being able to follow the rules doesn't make the rule itself wrong. if anakin, mace, even obi-wan would have let go of attachment there wouldn't be this big mess.

    i tried to get a feel for how each character viewed this current situation, and how each character had a specific weakness, that lead back to attachment. through the movies and the novels i feel i have a pretty firm understanding of each characters motivations for why they were doing what they were doing, also how it tied back into attachment.

    mace acted out of fear, PERIOD. he acted out of anger, let the trill of the fight get to him. he was afraid of palpatine, not so much of his power, mace already knew he could handle palpatine, but of the machinations he had implemented, the war he orchestrated, the sway he had over anakin. all of this came from the very simple basis of attachment. he just could let go of the republic, he was to attached to his republic that he couldn't see what was right in front of him. a seriously damaged young man, not physically, but mentally. (i have a theory that the moment anakin understands who palpatine is, he cracks. in the small of anakins mind, i think he becomes truly crazy after this, demented and deranged by what he has and will become. way off topic, anyways.) mace couldn't see that anakin was at the center of it all, everything depended on him, but his attachment to the republic or the more fitting title of justice didn't allow him the proper sight to end the situation.

    this one rule if upheld would have saved the galaxy from 20 plus years of true torment. the logic is undeniable, the rule is perfect, just not for us (humans).

    a shame we just didn't have it.

    it is so frustrating to see some of the very best the order can produce struggling with this rule they were supposed to be above, i mean THOUSANDS OF YEARS and the jedi just couldn't quite get it right. almost, very close, but not quite.
  13. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    for the record, i actually think im pretty wrong about the whole, "mace acted out of fear period." thing, i think there was more to it, i was just trying to get my point across.

    sorry for the spam. (ever had it with rice? good stuff.)
  14. Carnotaur3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2004
    star 3
    If I was in Mace's shoes, I'd consider killing Palpatine as well.
  15. Curufinwe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 14, 2002
    star 2
    I agree; letting go of all attachments is simply an unattainable ideal. Yoda preaches it, but clearly he is friends with the Jedi, feeling their pain when they're betrayed, rescuing Obi-Wan and Anakin from the pillar at the expense of his duel with Dooku,and so on. This is not a dig on Yoda; the severing of attachment can never completely be achieved. What I think "letting go of attachments" really means is this: Anakin was once a loyal and deeply caring friend to those he loved. What happened was that he took friendship too far; he made a worthy and good thing--friendship--into something selfish. He didn't love Padme as he once did (there's a pretty good case, in fact, that he never had a very healthy love for her) but became obsessed for her; his mad quest to maintain Padme's well-being was important so that he could feel secure--not her.

    The aspect of severing attachments that is attainable is this: not letting your frienship with others become a selfish mechanism to ensure your health and well-being. Love people because you want to help them and take care of them. I think this is what Luke ultimately achieves. Han and Leia, while being the two people he cares the most about, are ultimately in charge of themselves, Luke learns; he mustn't selfishly keep them for his own comfort. This is the only feasible way one can "let go" of others: by loving people for them and not for oneself. Does that make any sense; I got a little philosophical[face_hypnotized].
  16. DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2001
    star 4
    Hmmm the idea of socialism is supposedly "perfect" too and look where that led all the countries that used it....Ultimately an idea is nothing more then an idea inless its carried out.
  17. yaddidameen Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 13, 2005
    star 3
    that's kind of my point DS emp, not that the rule of foregoing attachments was a bad rule, it was just that the rule couldn't have been realistically carried out. to a certain degree? yes, but not the way he (yoda) was asking. no marriage? no offspring? except in very rare cases? he could have loosened up a little and the rule would have worked fine, IMO.
  18. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    it seems they were attached to their order, instead of someone outside. that is the difference.
  19. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    The Jedi never forebade friendships. That's why Anakin was allowed to be friends with Palpatine. Why Obi-wan could have Dex as a friend. Why Luke could be friends with Han, Chewie, Biggs, Wedge. Yoda could be friends with Chewie and Tarrful. Jedi can and are encouraged to make friends. But they cannot become emotionally attached to their friends. They can love people. They aren't celebate (sp). Love is encouraged and defined as compassion. But they cannot cling to those they love. They cannot become possessive. Even my aunt said that Anakin was wrong for being like he was. And she hadn't got to see the PT. She didn't have me telling her this and that. She's seen the kind of person Anakin was in AOTC and ROTS. And she didn't like him either once she saw what kind of person he really was, with the way he loved people.
  20. Carnotaur3 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 21, 2004
    star 3
    Anakin's problems weren't of attachments... it was of acceptance. I tell you now, it is possible for a Jedi to become attached and accept their death as that is what life is.
  21. DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2001
    star 4
    life is also emotion, passion, and anger...yet the jedi dont follow those...so I dont get your point.
  22. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    I thought the Jedi tenet was that attachment is dangerous
    not verboden. It's a matter of control.
    Regardless of the emotion you feel, if you can't control it,
    to the dark side it will lead you.
  23. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Anakin: "Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as love, is essential to a Jedi's life."

    "The Jedi are trained to let go. They're trained from birth," he continues, "They're not supposed to form attachments. They can love people-in fact, they should love everybody. They should love their enemies; they should love the Sith. But they can't form attachments. So what all these movies are about is: greed. Greed is a source of pain and suffering for everybody. And the ultimate state of greed is the desire to cheat death."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 213

    "It's about a good boy who was loving and had exceptional powers, but how that eventually corrupted him and how he confused possessive love with compassionate love. That happens in Episode II: Regardless of how his mother died, Jedis are not supposed to take vengeance. And that's why they say he was too old to be a Jedi, because he made his emotional connections. His undoing is that he loveth too much."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stone Magazine Interview; June 2005.
  24. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    And yet, the Jedi Order was attached at the hip to the New Republic government.
  25. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    well, if you read the EU, quite a few Jedi had secret attachments amongst themselves. Kit Fisto & Aayla Secura, Obi-Wan and Siri Tachi, couple of others.
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