[NRW] Leia's jedi status, Mara's attitude towards Leia and Vader, and the Mara/Shira connection.

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Sniper_Wolf, Jul 28, 2005.

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  1. Sniper_Wolf Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2002
    star 4
    In response to our fair EUDF Grand Admiral DVader316 saying I can do better than a ton of retconns involving the almighty Waru, I would like to present a National Retconn Week presenation without the meaty claws of Waru. Many a literians have argued about Leia's jedi status. She goes from a near fully trained jedi knight that has saber duels in the Hambly novels to a half trained in the New Jedi Order, the question comes why does this happen? I have uncovered the truth. This huge web is also connected to some other heavily debated issues. Why does Mara act like she does to Leia? What is the reason behind the similar looks between Miss Jade and Shira Brie before Shira became Lumyia? After heavy research, I have the answers to your queries.

    Let us go back to a few years after the events of Revenge of the Sith. The Emperor is looking for fresh meat that he can recruit into his planned Sith Army, as detailed by Dooku in the novelization of the film. Among the many children found, two of them are Mara Jade and Shira Brie. The striking green eyes, red hair, and the Force sensitvity interested the Emperor. He knew it wasn't luck that brought these two similar girls together, the Force was acting. The Emperor sensed the relation between Brie and Jade. He had DNA tests done on the two. The tests proved that Mara and Shira were distantly related. The Emperor would soon begin extensive genealogical research into the Jade and Brie family trees. He found an interesting discovery that shall have great importance in events to come.

    Shira Brie
    [image=http://www.mrsatanism.com/OtherFeatures/shira.gif]

    and Mara Jade
    [image=http://www.starwars.hu/pix/enciklopedia/vilaga/karakterek/mara_jade/mara1.jpg]
    are Sunriders. The geneology of both Brie and Jade link back to this woman.

    [image=http://www.starwars.hu/pix/enciklopedia/vilaga/karakterek/jedi/nomi_sunrider/sunrider.jpg]
    Nomi Sunrider.

    We all know of how Vima-Da-Boda is a direct descentdent of Nomi Sunrider. Somewhere in the six generations between Nomi and Vima the Sunrider bloodline went in different directions, reaching the Bries and the Jades. This explains the resemblance between Mara and Shire. Thankfully the Sunrider female balding trait hasn't stuck its ugly head yet. The Emperor, knowing that Sunriders are strong at Battle Meditation and the Force blocking ability that Nomi used on Ulic Qel-Droma during the Devestation of Ossus. Wanting to harness these powers, the Emperor began the training of Shira and Mara. So now we know why we have these two near identical Hands. Palpatine only gave Mara all the Imperial life style and the "caring" so he could exploit her powers. Nothing more than a pawn on Palpatine's intergalactic dejiark board.

    Now let us fastfoward to several months after A New Hope. Lord Vader has learned that Luke is his son. Now Mara and Shire are fully trained members of the Sith Army as basic dark jedi. Jade's ego has been sent through the room by statements from Palpatine and Vader about she is "neither light or dark" to make her feel better about the actions she does as Emperor's Hand, ignorant to the fact she was a true darksider. Shira had became an excellent pilot, which will serve her when she infiltrates Rogue Squadron. Vader does not treat Shira or Mara very well, always taken a hatred towards them from the start. The feelings are mutual with the two Sunriders. With the Emperor learning of the revelation of Luke being Vader's son, Palpatine takes again another interest in the line of the Chosen One. Palpatine's research eventually pays off. He now sees that the Vader/Shira/Mara hatred. The Skywalker bloodline, from Shimi backwards, can be traced over thousands of years. Shimi, Anakin, Luke, and Leia Skywalker are all descendents of an illigetimate child between jedi knights Shalea Nurr and, more importantly, Duron Qel-Droma. He is, if you do not know, the cousin of Cay and Ulic Qel-Droma. Tales of the Jedi clearly shows that relationships between Sunriders and Qel-Dromans usually end up bringing in rare occasions
  2. Kudzu Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2005
    star 5
    I never saw Mara being nasty to Leia...she even seemed to be remarkably civil for someone under house arrest when speaking to her in The Last Command.
  3. CeiranHarmony Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 10, 2004
    star 5
    Mara was no true darksider, just loyal. and some other details I think does´t fit with EU as well. Sadly I have to admit, I don´t like this retcon. Waru would´ve been better^^
  4. NeoStar9 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 4
    Read the NJO then come and see if you still think Mara isn't nasty Leia or just anyone in general that isn't Luke or Ben. Mara is a bitch a LOT of the time.
  5. Jedi_Liz Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 24, 2000
    star 6
    I think what happened is that the NJO round table didn't pay attention to Leia being a JEDI in Vision of the Future. They ignored a LOT of things. Poor planning on the round table's part, not to be blamed on a fictional character.






  6. NeoStar9 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 4
    Think of it this way. We all know who's fault it really is. Yet one has to be careful about how one expresses that anger and disappointment or you end up making personal threats, etc towards certain authors and LFL employees and no one wants that. At least I think that's why a LOT of the anger, etc gets filtered towars Mara. She's a fictional character. So expressing angery, etc towards her is a safer thing to do. At least that's how it is in my case. I have few choice words and phrases towards quite a few authors and DelRey personel at this point that could very well get me banned, or if the person felt strongly enough maybe my IP information. While that may seem like waste of time and I agree at times it does but it is what it is. So it's kept in check by it being expressed a different way. That's not to say that's only why Mara is singled out. There are just certain things that are about her alone that case the dislike of her.
  7. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    Mara was no true darksider, just loyal. and some other details I think does´t fit with EU as well. Sadly I have to admit, I don´t like this retcon. Waru would´ve been better^^

    That's right -- because secretly, assassins are kittens!

    [image=http://www.xecode.com/contents/wallpaper/puss_in_boots.jpg]
  8. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    Mara was no true darksider, just loyal.

    I'm sure her victims would whole heartedly agree with you.
  9. dp4m Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2001
    star 9
    I'm sure her victims would whole heartedly agree with you.

    Wait, I forgot... and the Dark Side thanks you for your patronage! (TM)
  10. academygrad88 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2004
    star 5
    That was a very interesting theory. It sounds like something McEwok would cook up. [face_laugh]

    Personally, I never found Mara as rude to Leia. Oh, sometimes the authors have Mara moody, but in most circumstances I would think her reaction was normal. I remember one time in the NJO where she snaps at Leia. It was unkind, but she just had her baby kidnapped by some psycho Senator, so I think her response was understandable. Obviously Leia forgave her for her emotional outburst. :p

    As for why Leia's Force abilities seem to fluctuate, I would think it probably is because of lack of practice. When she is working on her skills, she is good. When she gets caught up in government business and lets her training lapse, it shows.

    Or it could be that the EU novels are written by a diverse group of authors. All who see and write Leia and her Force abilities differently. ;)

    AG88
  11. Blithe Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2003
    star 4
    [face_laugh]
  12. NeoStar9 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 4
    Stop making these kind of excuses. We all know why Leia's force status is the way it is. To play Mara up to being Luke's equal when the one person that really should be is his twin sister. And also because some of these authors and editors seem to ignore what comes first and want to constantly degrade the character.

    I wish people would stop trying to come up with in-universe answers to things all the time and call things for what they are.

    Removed flame.
  13. academygrad88 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 6, 2004
    star 5
    Stop making these kind of excuses. We all know why Leia's force status is the way it is. To play Mara up to being Luke's equal when the one person that really should be is his twin sister.

    So you are saying that the various ways Leia is written by dozens of authors has nothing to do with their diverse interpretation of her? Hmmm? that is interesting. [face_thinking]

    Are you insinuating that there is a evil conspiracy among the Star Wars novelists to dismiss or degrade Leia?s role in the EU by exalting Mara?s character? That the authors are going to do this by making her some glorious and perfect Jedi Master... the only person who could possibly be an equal to Luke. The only person who would qualify to be the Jedi Master?s wife (or as you mentioned: the one person that really should be is his twin sister. Kinky. ;) ).

    What I don?t understand is how the author?s believe they are going to put Mara up on this high pedestal if they are writing her, as you say, as a bitch.

    And also because some of these authors and editors seem to ignore what comes first and want to constantly degrade the character.

    Isn?t that sort of what I said about the authors and their diverse interpretations of the character... except I didn?t insult them.

    AG88
  14. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    You mean aside from when she told Leia that she planned to kill her brother?

    Mara has been nasty to Leia many times, both to her face and behind her back. Leia has shown remarkable restraint in not cutting that arrogant, rude, self-centered shrew down to size.

    Her baby had been returned to her, safe and sound and completely unharmed. Meanwhile, Leia's youngest child had died. DIED. He was never going to return to her, except in a coffin. Nonetheless, Leia never snapped at Mara, or at anyone else. She even castigated herself for "selfishly" grieving while others had it worse than she. I guess that underlines the essential difference between Mara and Leia: Leia is selfless and caring of other people, even in her time of grief, whereas Mara is self-centered and insensitive toward other people.

    Of course. Everyone always forgives Mara for everything. Meanwhile, everyone, including Mara, lines up to catalogue Leia's faults and hold her accountable for her mistakes, both real and imaginary.

    Odd, since Mara became a Jedi, then a Jedi master, in about two seconds despite lack of practice.

    Oh, I wouldn't say it was anything so organized as a conspiracy, but I would say there was a definite effort on the part of the authors to dismiss/degrade Leia while at the same time exalting Mara.

    That's exactly what they've tried to do. Mara is regarded as perfect in the NJO, and identified as equal to Luke. Everyone adores her and defers to her at all times, and she's held up as an ideal. Leia tells her she's braver. Anakin wishes his dad could be strong like Aunt Mara. And so on.

    Who said anything about qualifying to be his wife? IMO, the authors seem to think that in order to be Luke's wife, Mara has to be his equal in terms of Force strength, which I fail to understand. Han isn't Leia's equal in terms of Force strength. In fact, he doesn't have the Force at all. But they're certainly equals, and have a relationship that is about ten times stronger than the contrived relationship that authors write for Luke and Mara, trying to make them seem like soulmates and a good match by refusing to shut up about their creepy "Force bond."

    Because at the same time that they are writing her as a b****, they make all the other characters worship her. The other charac
  15. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    Sniper...
    "With the fact that Sunriders have a natural knack for Battle Meditation, Vader rebuilds Shira. Taking morbid pleasure in knowing that Shira is suffering the exact type of pain her suffered during his recontruction after the Mustafar Incident, Vader chistens the rebuilt Shira as Lumyia, a Sith lady."

    Minor technical point, while it may have been Vader who recovered Shira (because he happened to be the closest, and her injuries occured while the Emperor had "loaned" her to him), it was...
      "Shira was rescued by the Empire and returned to Coruscant. There, the Emperor's scientists used their most advanced cybernetics to save her."
      (Star Wars Galaxy Magazine #3)
    ...definitely the Emperor and his people who "reconstructed" Shira Brie into Lumiya the same way Palpatine had Anakin reconstructed into Darth Vader. Admittedly, a minor issue in such an interesting theory, however, one important in setting Lumiya's place.

    As far as the rest goes, I can easily see how Mara is related to Nomi. Their penchant to draw upon the dark side to screw up the lives of Jedi heroes and then become glorified for doing so seem to be a genetic trait. However, I can't remotely see how Shira relates to them - unlike Nomi and Mara, she actually succeeded in the things she attempted.

    Ceiran..."
    Mara was no true darksider, just loyal."

    Mara wasn't loyal. I suppose one has to redefine the word in Mara's universe so by being "loyal," it means that when she's been ordered to assassinate a target, like she's done so many times for her loving father, she instead marries it.

    Mara Jade was so loyal, that her adopted father was going to have her murdered for her betrayal of him.

    I suppose you are on to something. Mara's loyalty to her beloved parent seems to be the same kind of loyalty Nomi showed. When Ulic was marked by a Sith talisman, infected with a Dark Side wound, injected with Krath poison, surrounded by the suffocating power of Dark Side fortress and infiltrating a Dark Side cult, Nomi showed such loyalty to him that she leaves him pretty much all alone to his own devices. That Sunrider loyalty. Mara's definitely got it.
  16. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    People want sunshine characters, not understanding why flaws bring out the best bets.
  17. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    You're just saying that because of how goddam cool Tyrion is. ;)

    E_S
  18. ILLUMINATUS_JEDI Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2001
    star 4
    The whole Sunrider-Brie-Jade related is a good explanation. The rest is too far fetched for me I'm afraid.

    It seems to me that the whole Mara being moody and uncaring in the NJO is because DR and the authors are trying to make Mara the Mace Windu of the NJO. In TJK it says they decide for Mara to confront Jaina and co and give them the telling off. Mara is the stern, no-nonsense, straight to action Jedi (Mace Windu) while Luke is the wise, always contemplating Jedi (Yoda)
  19. Excellence Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    True. Though Chett was even funnier. The dogs looked to him eagerly, hoping for food after three days without. Instead, he gives one a kick to the belly and contemplates which to eat tomorrow if they can't find any food. [face_laugh]
  20. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    That's insulting to Mace. Mara is nowhere near on his level.

    Why does she always have to be the one to "tell people off"? Why can't someone tell her off for a change? Heaven knows she is long overdue for it.

    Mara is the Jedi who shouldn't be a Jedi. She isn't qualified, and she has none of the characteristics a Jedi should have. She's violent, bad-tempered, and has zero compassion for anyone but HER SON and sometimes Luke.

    What I don't understand is why none of the other characters see Mara's flaws, and regard her as perfect and ideal. Why no one ever loses their temper with this rude, insensitive, inconsiderate shrew, or tells her, "Look who's talking!" when she pompously lectures them.

    What I don't understand is how, in the context of the story, Mara can do no wrong -- while other characters, particularly Leia, can do no right and get only a fraction of the respect Mara does, despite deserving it about ten times more.
  21. Tam_Elgrin Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2004
    star 4
    >>"She's violent, bad-tempered, and has zero compassion for anyone but HER SON and sometimes Luke."<<

    Sounds like Anakin Skywalker.
  22. Tiershon_Fett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 25, 2000
    star 5
    Leia's too smart to rely on the Force. She was taught tot hink all her life. Mara was taught to obey. Big difference.

    Mara's a snob, and Leia isn't.
    Mara's got mental problems, and Leia's as lucid and pragmatic as you can get.
    Leia's holding back her powers, and Mara uses all of hers, and they aren't that impressive.
    Mara's not good enough to be a Sunrider. The Skywalkers are better than all of them Anakin came FROM THE FORCE ITSELF.

    As for Leia, she's always been more important. She was born that way, as a royal, and she is just all around better, and always will be. Her IQ is tremendous, but she never flaunts it. That is security with one's self.


    Sounds like Anakin Skywalker.

    Not really. He, unlike Mara, could actually walk the walk. He was gifted and talented beyond any other Jedi.

    He suffered from arrogance, and he wasn't gushed over and adored for it. People didn't like him. They were in awe of his skills, but as Obi-wan pointed out, his skills were never in question. It was his temperamnet that was out of line. Anakin suffered a lot from his bad attitude. And that is as it SHOULD be. People that have a short fuse and feel slighted are dangerous. He profoundly gifted, but not wise. He was hurt over imaginary lack of trust, when in reality, he was YOUNG. The people handing down orders were much older, in some cases. Anakin had good instincts, but his emotional reactions got in the way.

    Mara on the other hand, gets her butt constantly kissed by everyone for acting the same way. People think it's cute, "Oh, she's right", well, she isn't. It shouldn't be tolerated, just as it wasn't tolerated with Anakin. When Mara talks over people I cringe. No one does anything.
    It's fine to say something once in a while, but all Mara does is, yell, threaten, complain and argue, whenever she opens her mouth, which is far too often.
    Her fans call her "stoic", all I can say is, where? Stoic means you don't say anything, not just nasty rude words. It means NO words. Being mean, and not showing your "softer" side doesn't = stoic. Proves how weak those around her are. I wish Mace could come back and put these undiciplined ninnies in their place.
  23. Shelley Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 9, 2001
    star 5
    And what do you know, Anakin was denied Jedi masterhood. He also turned to the Dark Side.

    Yep.

    Tell me about it. Mara thinks she's better than everyone else. Leia has compassion for everyone.

    Mara uses the Force to open a bottle cap. Leia relies on her wits and her smarts.

    Yep. She doesn't pull rank on people like Mara does (in her case, her rank is undeserved anyway).

    Good point. He also earned his position. Mara did not. She got it through nepotism.

    Exactly. They keep deferring to her when she seldom knows what she's talking about. She's applauded for her "straight talk," when all she really does is snipe at people and say charming things like, "What idiot sent you?" She's described as "taking no crap," which is fine. However, everyone takes HER crap, which is not fine.

    Why is she a Jedi and a Jedi master? Leia acts like more of a Jedi master than Mara ever could.

    Mara is not stoic. At all. She never shuts up and she's always got to be the center of attention. From her labor pains, which she broadcast all over the galaxy, to her "terror" over Ben being made slightly uncomfortable by Han and Leia's grief, to her opening her yap to offer her unwanted and unneeded two cents when Luke's finding out more about his father. She always has to yank the spotlight back to herself.
  24. Ive_Got_Two_Legs Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 18, 2005
    star 4
    But where did Shmi come from?

    And on the subject of the origins of the Skyalkers, wasn't there a theory aorund here a while back that they descendend from Revan & Bastila Shan?
  25. JacenSolo48 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2005
    star 1
    Though I like Mara, I tend to agree with Tiershon and Shelley (sp?) that she is sometimes pumped up too much. I also think that Luke should have been made to confront the Jedi, or else maybe Han and Leia, who are the parents of two of them, and helped raise the others to an extent. Still, the authors seem to want to neglect Han and Leia. I must be the only one who likes Luke, Mara, Leia, and Han.
    As for those who have such problems with Mara, though, because of her bad behavior, or Jacen, for that matter, where is the outrage against Jaina. No matter how arrogant or self-confident depending on how you view him Jacen may be, he is no match for Jaina's absolute rudeness. I am so annoyed by her hands on her hips, I will do what I wish, woeisme, no one understands me routine. I know Jacen does this too, but not to the extent and disrespect of her parents that Jaina does. Jaina is mouthy, and if I ever had a daughter like her, I would wash her mouth out at any age. No one, not even an adult should get off, much less with praise, mouthing off at her parents like that. So, again, I like Mara, but agree with some criticisms of her, and I want people to stop bashing Mara while praising and absolving that whiny little witch Jaina.
    Oh, by the way, Mara is not as powerful as Anakin. She also has neither his capcity for evil, nor his capacity for good. She does not have a heart as big as his. She can never match him on any scale. I believe that further exploration into the use of Hands makes this clear. God bless. -JacenSolo48
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