[NRW]The prequels

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Pipboy, Aug 23, 2006.

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  1. Pipboy Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2006
    star 1
    The lit boards is a catchall board for the entire universe, because lit encompasses everything from games to comic books to manga to normal books. All media is discussed and weighed here and all of the life of the EU flows from here.

    As to weak strong its because it creates a feminine sound which is not in itself a bad thing, its just not something that really helps out your big bad old male villian. KuDoo would be a odd but better name as the Ku is the defining syllable.
  2. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Wow, this thread is turning into quite the train wreck. :) I agree that movies should be discussed in the movie forum. ;)
  3. Mayor_Adam_West Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2006
    star 2
    Its true the movies have a part in this forum, but a "How would you change the prequels" topic belongs in another forum I think.

    I'll just have to take your word for it. Here's to underanalyzing.
  4. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Edit: Ah. You weren't talking to me. Carry on, then. :p

    The prequels are movies and have their own forum. I guess unless we're talking about how it would fit in with EU versions of the Old Republic? :confused: Because right now, it appears to be all about the movies.
  5. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10
    Isn't doku a Japanese term for poison, pipboy?

    I would have to say, re-reading for the zilionth time, the Thrawn Trilogy, that I would prefer the stuff about the Old Republic Zahn hinted at there.

    Firstly, there's too few regular people, and this has had a very strong influence on the novels. Every major character save Han is essentially a Jedi, and the few minors who aren't are overused for their age (Wedge), flat out boring (Squibs), or inconsistent (Cal Omas).

    Because the Ronin-like view of the Jedi was abandoned for the Padawan/Master relationship, and Jedi went from being mysterious old wizard to boring flashy ninjas, the stories became all about the Jedi. Even when Zahn retconned the silly powers, it was a temporary reprieve rather than full blown correction.

    In short, I'd have preferred a prequel trilogy that focused on few, rather than many Jedi, and had things like the Republic Navy of the Katana fleet, rather than what we got; clone masters unleashing fury upon the galaxy; scattered Jedi academies rather than one conspicuous temple on Coruscant, and more focus on how Kenobi was underqualified to teach Anakin compared to Yoda in the sense that Yoda was a proper teach, Kenobi not.

    How much of this sounds like KOTOR?

    E_S
  6. sabarte Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 8, 2005
    star 4
    As far as Dooku goes, "Windu" is honestly not much better, but since he has a decent first name people tend to think of him as Mace. Dooku's not given a first name, so there's no help for it. Adding "Count" to the mix just makes it sillier and adds unfortunate and tacky Dracula connotations.

    No wonder the poor guy left the Order. At least the Sith gave him a decent name. Though I've got to say, it's pretty impressive to force a split in a thousand-year-old Republic with a name that silly.
  7. Mayor_Adam_West Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 22, 2006
    star 2
    Yeah doku does mean poison.

    I think Palaptines orchestration of the entire clone war was a much better idea that what Zahn hinted at. Thhe man was able to manipulate a galaxy.

    On the topic of names again, I've always thought Windu was one of the coolest last names in Star Wars.
  8. Crazydan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 1, 2005
    star 3
    Well, what Supersaiyn thinks of the idea about Lucas' "vision" of the Clone Wars being a "fake" war, with Palpatine running both the sides? About how the prequels were of Palpatine's rise to power?
  9. Fire_Ice_Death Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    People comaplain about the PT a lot, but the storyline's okay and the execution (while wishy-washy) wasn't as bad as it could have been. Thankfully Lucas didn't give Zahn the license or else I'd have to kill myself. . Yeah, he'd have done the PT justice. The Smurfs invade and Palpatine acting as Gargamel takes over the galaxy while saying, "You will rue the day," whenever the heroes foil his plot. Except at the end when he eats the Smurfs and creates Smurfette Amidala who seduces Anakin into betraying his principles. And if you're wondering why Anakin is helping the Smurfs; it's Zahn we're talking about. It doesn't need to make sense so long as it has Zahn's name in the title and the Smurfs.

    Perhaps not the best choice of words when describing Mr Zahn and the Chiss...
  10. The2ndQuest Tri-Mod With a Mouth

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2000
    star 10
    The prequels as a whole certainly don't need to be retconned out of existence, but they could have certainly been tighter in execution and/or relevance to the rest of the saga. Really just some basic rearranging of the existing elements- start the Clone Wars in the first movie, then make the Naboo blockade an action taken during the Clone Wars and tie in the Naboo romance material set against it's backdrop, throw in Grievous as the droid army leader sooner and adjust Obi-Wan's investigations accordingly.
  11. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 6
  12. Charlemagne19 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 30, 2000
    star 8
    I'd like to give a few observations.

    1. Star Wars is a Complex Polito Drama

    People tend to forget George Lucas and Shakespeare share the same fact that both of them create primarily entertainment pieces with a few "epics" and mostly comedies. Shakespeare can just do dialogue. The people who want a Politico-Drama have had their sci-fi tastes evolve to the idea the Prequels would essentially be some ubber-Zhan Dune meets C-Span game of cat and mouse written for them as adults.

    Oddly, this occupies a fairly good portion of the Prequels.

    2. Star Wars Prequels are Star Wars warmed over

    Return of the Jedi had this problem but we forgive it because it was the end. Star Wars warmed over would essentially have a lovable rogue, some Jedi, a princess, and a weird alien of some sort (again, this occupied a portion of the prequels) fighting for their lives against an Evil Empire with only the settings changed. They don't want to take into account the situation is utterly different.

    3. Star Wars Prequels are already told

    A bunch of Clone masters making the Mandalorian armies leads an attack on the Republic and the Jedi while Adult Obi Wan leads adult Anakin Skywalker. The Katana fleet will disappear at an early stage while Anakin and Obi Wan barely avoid it. Boba Fett is a crusty old Mandalorian survivor with Vader jumping whole heartedly into the Dark Side solely for the power before Obi Wan has it. They'd even insert a moment where Anakin says "Give this to my son, I want Luke to have it when he's old enough." Then have Owen say he won't allow it.

    4. Star Wars just isn't what I wanted

    I loved the Prequels but my Prequels would have added mecha, Gundam warmed over political complexity with everyone right in the Clone Wars but the Sith, the Jedi's cutting through starships with lightsabers like in Samurai Seven's opening animation. Probably Palpatine as a handsome man before he's deformed too.

    You know what though? NO ONE CARES ABOUT MY VERSION OF THE PREQUELS. The same applies to most versions of them. Star Wars is the unique experience that EVERYONE whom loved the trilogy has their own version of Sequels or Prequels in their head.
  13. Lord_Hydronium Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 5
    For those keeping score at home, then, this seems to be the policy:

    Comments directed against Zahn = not OK.
    Comments directed against Lucas = OK.

    And mods can now edit what words people use to describe fictional characters?

    EDIT: I'm not really trying to get the people making disparaging comments about Lucas in trouble. It's more a matter of general policy and the double standard that seems to be showing up that I'm concerned about.
  14. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 6
    Everyone who's got something against the prequels needs to grow up.
  15. Excellence Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 28, 2002
    star 7

    I agree. How often do you see a science fiction movie with that quality of special effects? Lets be objective: you've got no problems with the old SW movies' stale dialogue and graphics, you shouldn't beef the cow with these better upgrades.

    Throw one hardcover of your choice in the recycle bin, and we'll call it even. Fair?
  16. jSarek VIP

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 4
    Other than trying to mesh the storyline with what we got in the PT and EU a little better (I fully realize that Lucas wasn't obligated to, but it would've been a cool and welcome gesture), other changes I would've made include . . .

    -I'd have farmed out the dialogue. You *know* this is a weak point of yours, George; that's why you called in help for ESB and RotJ. Should've done it here, too.

    -I'd have given Jar-Jar a larger role. Yes, you heard me right, a LARGER one. Here was the first fully-realized CGI main character in history, and Lucas wasted him on klutz jokes. Shave out some of the juvenile humor (not necessarily ALL of it, but enough to make him less one-note), pull back on the nigh unintelligible dialect (or, conversely, make it MORE unintelligible but write the other characters' dialogue to cover the gaps, like they did in the PT with Chewie), and give him a juicier place in the plot and make him matter to the storyline.

    -I'd have let the Jedi love. No matter the rationalizations that have been given about how attachments are bad, I have a very difficult time with the idea that the representatives of the light side of the Force would eschew the most iconic element of good there is. Where there is no attachment to your fellow humans, there is no love. Where there is no love, there is no light.

    -I'd have tightened up the editing in the middle of Episode II. Star Wars should never *drag*.
  17. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 6
    The Jedi weren't faultless. This is the great thing the prequels taught us. The Jedi weren't allowed to love - that was their undoing. Isn't it just BRILLIANT. Something no-one expected. Instead of seeing supergood people, we see the Jedi as aloof and stale. The last years of the Republic. I think it's awesome. And I think people who don't like it need to learn to grow.

  18. jSarek VIP

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2005
    star 4
    I'm fine with them being faulty, but forbidding love was the wrong fault to portray, in my opinion. It's too central to my understanding of "good" to see it as a failing that the representatives of That Which Is Good could miss. Aloof and stale is one thing. Unloving is another.

    Otherwise, Lucas should have at least emphasized that their lack of love was their downfall more. As it stands most of the blame falls on the one Jedi who *did* embrace love, with the fact that the disallowance of that love partly led to its perversion left as a subtle afterthought.

    And you should really reconsider always telling people to grow up. Reasonable, adult people can have different opinions than you, you know.
  19. SuperWatto Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2000
    star 6
    Hey, I just said 'grow' this time 'round.
  20. Jedimarine Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 13, 2001
    star 5
    Just a couple of points to make.

    Film bashing really doesn't belong in Lit, but if you have a retcon idea to offer, that does belong.

    To claim that "anyone" could do better with the prequels then Lucas is speculation. So people should not jump to assumptions that George "handing" over the reigns would have saved everything. It could've been MUCH worse.

    Like or dislike the acting, plot, and characters of the prequels, they are part of the universe. And since arguments over what's canon and who understands canon are the rage, commentary in this thread won't change anything.

    This thread should be lighthearted...or perhaps sarcastic jokes from the darker among us. [face_devil]

  21. Fire_Ice_Death Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    To be fair to E_S I was kind of pushing it with what I said. Although I've used it in several posts before to no edit.


  22. Carnage04 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 8, 2005
    star 5


    Yeah, I don't really understand where people get off thinking that Timothy Zahn would write a bad ass screenplay. I absolutely cannot see something like The Thrawn Trilogy being split up into 3 140 minute movies. Utterly impossible. Back in the day when that series was released, my friends and are were fairly certain that they would be the next Movies. We actually stopped our fanboy dreams and though about it. Definately not happening. If RoTS was rushed, imagine Dark Force Rising or the Last Command. It would be horrible.

    Zahn is a good writer, but Lucas's strength is his ability to take a story and make it as cohesive as possible in a given time frame. The fact is, he may have been able to write a stronger romance but he was under huge time constraints. He may have dragged his feet a little too much with TPM, but it had been so long since his last Star Wars movie I think he had to take it slow and test the waters. If he would have comitted to 19 year old Anakin and still had Jar-Jar binks in it, the consequences could have been disasterous. Instead, we get a lighthearted and fun little adventure to start with (Where we are treated to THE EARLY YEARS OF PALPATINE'S CAREER, Qui-Gon Jinn, Darth Maul, and CORUSCANT! HE BROUGHT CORUSCANT TO LIFE!) To follow that we have two films that are pretty much solid content from start to finish. Bash the romance. Fine, but I think it fits. Both Padme and Anakin were "Trained" to be a certain way and it really shows why Jedi aren't allowed to Marry.....they are romantically inept....as is a woman who devoted her entire life to politics. They both clearly never had enough freedom to interact with other people on such a level and thus ended up "Wooden".

    Aside from that, please tell me that you thought the Sidious scheme was entirely brilliant. Watch it with someone that knows NOTHING at all about Star Wars...watch them start to look at you funny on the invisible hand. Watch their jaw drop when Palpatine finally says "My master taught me everything I know - Even the Nature of the Dark Side." The curve balls that the Sith set up are executed very well on the screen and I am more than pleased with how the Sith came back to power and how the Jedi were destroyed. There was a lot of Eye Candy, it was corny at times, but it was really fantastic all-in-all. Slowly but surely I think Lucas captured the essence of the OT by the end of the PT, which is a tough transition.

    Going back to Zahn, I think that as a film he would fail to ever get close to capturing the essence of the OT and would get closer to capturing the essence of Star Trek. Instead of "Here is the clone army" it would have been. "Obi-Wan, these are Sparti Cloning Cylanders. TO prevent clone madness, we shield the cylanders with Ysalamari." "YSalmari?" "They are creatures indienous only to the planet myykyr. They exude a bubble of anti-force powers. They evolved that way because the planet is inhabited with predators that hunt by using the force. They don't see their prey, they feel it. The Ysalmari survived by creating pockets where the predators could not sense anything." "And this is relevant how?" "As we said, it keeps the clones from going mad, a problem with replicating DNA and accelerating it's growth has also been the degradation of the Cytosine Caps on the ends of the DNA. Quite rapidly, the minds of the Clones would break down and they would be unable to be controlled by themselves, much less you." "Can you just take me to see the prime clone?" "I would be delighted to do that. The only thing is that his room has been surrounded by a mass shadow generator with particles that can hurt you floating around in it. He purchased that technology at a considerable price. It is fascinating how it works, you see, if you take the negative Photon Emissions of a" "Look, you've taken A LOT of screen time....can I just go beat up Jango Fett now?" "Don't you want a more detailed breakdown of the cloning process." *Sighs* "That's why I'm here."

    It just doesn't work on film.

    Carnage
  23. MercenaryAce Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 10, 2005
    star 5
    I would have preffered to have Anakin as an older mercenary fighter pilot (fighting with Obi-Wan's descriptions) who was accepted in because of his raw talent alone. Other than that, it was pretty good.

    Jar-Jar was annoying, but so was C-3PO.

    I liked the Droids. I mean sure B-1s were jokes in small battles, but they had their moments, basically whenever they got into legoin like formation and brought death in their wake. Not to mention ever other type of droid was a walking arsenal of badassery.

    I liked the CLones being good guys, it was fresh and orginal.

    Finally, perspective man. The prequals were really really good, it was just that our expectations were so much higher. Hell, with 20 years of speculation, it could never ever have matched our expectations.

    Besides, still far and above better than most of the crap being passed off as cinema now a days. Watch any sci-fi original, and you'll have a whole new appreciation for the quality of movies like Plan Nine from Outer Space.
  24. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    Just a comment on Lucas-bashing. It's fine to offer commentary on his work. It's also fine to criticize his work, but let's keep it tactful just like we ask you to do with everyone's else's work. No, he probably will never post here like Traviss, Denning, Stover et al, but do it anyway. We've gotten a little tougher with that in the movie forums, also. A good rule of thumb is to ask yourself if you would direct your comment to another user here, or if he was in the conversation would you post that comment (and be honest with yourself). If not, then don't post it. We don't really want mindless "bashing" of anyone's work or any author/film-maker/etc.
  25. Thanos6 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Apr 20, 1999
    star 4
    Yes. I have no tact. ;)

    But yes, the vision of the Old Republic, the Clone Wars, and the Jedi that filters in through Zahn's original trilogy is a hundred times more subtle, complex, and intriguing than what we were given.

    And about turning TTT into movies...who says you have to slice and dice them? Make each one like six hours long. :)
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