"OB1 once thought as you did." He did?

I started to put this in the ROTS forum, but I think it belongs here since the discussion of this line will probably encompass more than one movie.

Vader tells Luke that OB1 once thought as Luke did as far as turning Vader back to the light, and remembering his identity as Anakin Skywalker.

After seeing ROTS, I am sorta confused. OB1 didnt once try to turn Anakin back during the duel, and beforehand pretty much told Padme he was going to kill Anakin. When did OB1 think as Luke did?

 

It certainly wasn't very obvious. Obi-wan hinted to it with his dissention during the duel, but he didn't come right out and say "I know there's good in you". I think the way Ep. III displayed Anakin's turn made it hard to see that Obi-wan was trying to convince Anakin to stick with the council and their way, rather than give in to impatience. That's about the only stretch I can offer to justify Vader's remarks, because, as you stated, it wasn't explicitly mentioned by Obi-wan.

 

Maybe it wasn't said vocally.

 

Before the duel begins OB1 is still trying to get Anakin to see the light, it is only when it becomes obvious that Anakin's corruption has in his eyes become complete that OB1 attacks.

 

it is pretty obvious because he loved anakin like a brother

 

exactly. it doesnt have to be said, or even shown on screen. if vader says "obi wan once thought as you did" just take his word for it!

 

Before the duel begins OB1 is still trying to get Anakin to see the light, it is only when it becomes obvious that Anakin's corruption has in his eyes become complete that OB1 attacks.

I dunno. Ive only seen it once and that was a week ago, so you may be right, but it just didnt seem that way to me. I would think that if OB1 was trying to get Anakin to return to the light, he would actually try to get Anakin to return to the light.

The scene where he implies to Padme that he was on his way to kill newly Vader and after seeing DV kill the younglings pretty much tells me that OB1 had has mind made up.

Someone said that it was implied that thats what he was doing because he loved Anakin like a brother. However, IMHO, if his brotherly love was fueling him to turn Anakin back, then it would be blatant pleading and non stop effort to turn his "brother" good again.

 

I would suggest tracking down the text of the script. If you read their argument just before the duel the entire thing is OB1 gauging how far gone Anakin is. His last statement reflects this "Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must." To me it seems that it is during this conversation that OB1 realizes that it is truly too late and he must destroy Anakin as Yoda ordered him to.

Not saying this is irrefutably true, just how I came away from it.

 

The audience may be on to that if its in the script, but how would Vader ever know that OB1 felt that way? It certainly wasnt apparent to him the last time they met.

 

I think it was apparent to Vader that Obi-Wan did not want to kill him. Obviously it's less fervant than Luke because of the circumstances, but I did get the sense that Obi-Wan was incredibly pained by this and wished in his heart of hearts that Anakin would somehow turn back, even if he knew it wasn't really possible...

After all, he directly says to Anakin, "Don't try it." And then he doesn't kill Anakin when he could have by the lava. Perhaps Vader/Anakin sensed, as the audience can't, what Obi-Wan was truly thinking. Perhaps his comment in RotJ reveals that. That would mean he knew Obi-Wan was hoping Anakin wasn't truly gone, just as Luke is in RotJ.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

I'm going to the force on that one, quite frequently throughout the films the Jedi "search their feelings" to find the truth of something. I guess I came to assume that part of being a Jedi is being an empath, as such I am willing to credit that the most powerful Jedi, Anakin, can read this man that is like his brother pretty much like a book. Again I could be insane and feel free to tell me if I am reaching a conclusion that isn't there.

 

Obi is still trying to convince him to change his ways up to the very end of the duel

"Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!"

hes obviously still trying to convince Anakin that what hes taking the wrong path

"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"

"Then you are lost!"

He doesn't give up on him till near the very end of the duel, and even then Obi tries to get Anakin to back down once he obtains the higher ground.

Combined with his "I loved you" quote and the pleading with Yoda to not be sent to duke it out with Anakin, even after witnessing the temple massacre

 

I suggested in some other thread that they rerecord James Earl Jones line to have him say "your mother" instead of "Obi-Wan", since Padme asked him to "come away with me" before the duel.

 

Or Vader believes Luke is trying to kill him, like Obi-wan tried.

 

Obi-Wan once loved Anakin as his brother, and believed in him. That's set up with the conversation with Mace and Yoda, with Obi-Wan remaining stedfast with his belief in Anakin.

Obi-Wan did not arrive on Mustafar to turn Anakin back from the Dark Side. I'm sure he was conflicted, but his greater goal was to stop Anakin from becoming worse than the Emperor, and that was something he had to fight. Anakin was already off the deep end by that point, and his power was only growing stronger.

Unfortunately, the greatest threat to the galaxy was the man Obi-Wan once believed would be its savior. It was a man Obi-Wan once believed was his friend and a good man.

Darth Vader destroyed that man. And Obi-Wan had to stop him. Even through it all, Obi-Wan realized that he didn't want do be in this fight. He even tries to spare him the agony of defeat at the very end, but that was also the true test to see if Anakin was still there to him.


I think Vader, in ROTJ, simply means that Obi-Wan once believed that he was a good man.

 

Combined with his "I loved you" quote and the pleading with Yoda to not be sent to duke it out with Anakin, even after witnessing the temple massacre

Maybe so. See to me, OB1 not wanting to go signifies the fact that he knows that he is going to have to kill Anakin. I would think that if he truly thought there was good in him, he would have WANTED to go to turn his "brother" back to the light.

His telling Anakin that he loved him is simply his regret over what Anakin has become, and that point he is leaving him for dead anyway, so the notion of redeeming him has already gone out the window.

Like I said, I have only seen it once, and that was a week ago, so it is possible that I am mixing things up. However, I DO remember waiting during the duel for OB1 to try to talk Anakin down and persuade him to come back to the light. Instead, it just seemed to me he was there on a mission, and he was gonna do a job whether he liked it or not.

I am enjoying this discussion guys, keep 'em comin'.

 

I would say that perhaps Vader isn't only referring to the end of ROTS when he becomes Darth Vader, but the whole time he was training under Ob1 as a padawan. Anakin flirts with the dark side on and off throughout AOTC and ROTS, and judging from Anakins hotheadedness at the very begining of AOTC it isn't something that just started then either. Throughout the two movies and his entire training Ob1 is constantly trying to warn Anakin of the dangers of his arrogance and get him to make better choices, yet progressively he slips more and more down that slope. I am sure the older Vader by the time of the OT would have had enough time to be introspective about his life to know that his turn to the dark side wasn't something that happened overnight, and that Ob1 was trying all along to nurture the Jedi virtues in him and yet he still chose the dark side in spite of everything.

 

In the video game there is a lot of dialogue with obi wan asking vader to return to the light and what not. The EU comes to the rescue again I guess.

 

What you have to remember is that this is all from Anakin/Vaders point of view.

He never sees Obi-Wans reaction to the younglings, or the Yodas "order" (to go and kill Vader) or his conversation with Padme etc etc.

To him, Obi-Wan shows up with Padme - then the following things all happen:

- ANAKIN: Obi-Wan is trying to turn you against me.
PADME: He cares about us.
ANAKIN: Us??!
PADME: He knows . . . He wants to help you.
ANAKIN: Is Obi-Wan going to protect you? He can't ... he can't help you. He's not strong enough.
PADME: Anakin, all I want is your love.
ANAKIN: Love won't save you, Padme. Only my new powers can do that.

Padme tells him Obi-Wan wants to help him. Even though Obi-Wan says "Anakin has to be stopped" to her (where SHE implies that he wants to kill him) - Padme tries using Obi-Wan to turn Anakin back to the lightside. She knows what Obi-Wan means to him.

- PADME: I don't believe what I'm hearing . . . Obi-Wan was right. You've changed.
ANAKIN: I don't want to hear any more about Obi-Wan. The Jedi turned against me. Don't you turn against me.
PADME: I don't know you anymore. Anakin, you're breaking my heart. I'll never stop loving you, but you are going down a path I
can't follow.

"I don't want to hear anymore about Obi-Wan...Don't you turn against me!"

He doesn't want to hear about changing his ways, about giving up his newfound power, about turning back from the darkside. He equates Obi-Wan with Padme's pleas ("Don't you...!")

- OBI-WAN: (continuing) You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind until now . . . until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.
They circle each other until OBI-WAN is near PADME. He places his hand on her.
ANAKIN: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire.
OBI-WAN: Your new Empire?
ANAKIN: Don't make me kill you.
OBI-WAN: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic ... to democracy.
ANAKIN: If you're not with me, you're my enemy.
OBI-WAN: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
ANAKIN: You will try.

"Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan!"

Self-evident, it doesn't necessarily show that Obi-Wan tries turning him - but Anakins reaction clearly states that Obi's stll trying to "lecture him"

- ANAKIN: I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over . . .
OBI-WAN: From the Sith!!! Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil.
ANAKIN: From the Jedi point of view! From my point of view, the Jedi are evil.
OBI-WAN: Well, then you are lost!
ANAKIN: This is the end for you, My Master.

This is a very clear piece where Obi tries talking sense into Anakin, pretty self-evident.

- OBI-WAN: It's over, Anakin. I have the high ground.
ANAKIN: You underestimate my power!
OBI-WAN: Don't try it.

"Don't try it!"

Although Obi-Wan knew damn well that Anakin was going to try making the jump, to Anakin it could most likely be seen as Obi-Wan either underestimating him or begging him not to do it.

- OBI-WAN: (continuing) . . . You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would, destroy the Sith, not join them. It was you who would bring balance to the Force, not leave it in Darkness.
OBI-WAN picks up Anakin's light saber and begins to walk away. He stops and looks back.
ANAKIN: I hate you!
OBI-WAN: You were my brother, Anakin. I loved you.

"I loved you!"

The last thing Anakin will ever hear from someone he truly loved before it all ends for him, before the suit is put on, before he finds out Padme dies.

"I loved you!" Very haunting words, that's the last thing Obi-Wan ever says to him until they meet 20 years later.

IMO, it's made abundantly clear why AnaVader would say that "Obi-Wan once thought as you did", since Luke tries doing the same thing - talking sense into Anakin, "It's the name of your true self".



- O_F

 

what that line always implied to me was a longer period of time, perhaps even years, between the change from anakin to vader and the duel itself. I always imagined they had a few encounters before obi wan finaly defeated vader, always trying to change him back, and only when he knew there was no going back did he kick vaders butt.


which is how it played out but in a much shorter time frame.

 

Obi did not kill Anakin in Sith. In New Hope, Obi showed Vader that the light side is the strongest by giving himself up during the duel. Anakin was part of the force at jedis end.

 

Obi was retreating during the entire duel. He kept falling back and trying to avoid killing Anakin. He did believe their was good in him he was pushing it off for as long as possible in the hope that Anakin maycome to his senses. Also the whole speech before the duel was in the hope of turning Anakin back to the light.

 

- PADME: I don't believe what I'm hearing . . . Obi-Wan was right. You've changed.
ANAKIN: I don't want to hear any more about Obi-Wan. The Jedi turned against me. Don't you turn against me.
PADME: I don't know you anymore. Anakin, you're breaking my heart. I'll never stop loving you, but you are going down a path I
can't follow.

"I don't want to hear anymore about Obi-Wan...Don't you turn against me!"

He doesn't want to hear about changing his ways, about giving up his newfound power, about turning back from the darkside. He equates Obi-Wan with Padme's pleas ("Don't you...!")

Seems to me that Anakin already sees OB1 as having turned against him, not trying to help him.

- OBI-WAN: (continuing) You have allowed this Dark Lord to twist your mind until now . . . until now you have become the very thing you swore to destroy.
They circle each other until OBI-WAN is near PADME. He places his hand on her.
ANAKIN: Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan. I see through the lies of the Jedi. I do not fear the dark side as you do. I have brought peace, justice, freedom, and security to my new Empire.
OBI-WAN: Your new Empire?
ANAKIN: Don't make me kill you.
OBI-WAN: Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic ... to democracy.
ANAKIN: If you're not with me, you're my enemy.
OBI-WAN: Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes. I will do what I must.
ANAKIN: You will try.

I guess it can be interpreted a certain way, but to me, this is not OB1 attempting to bring Anakin back to the light, its warning him of where OB1 stands and that he is ready to kill him if needs be, and also stalling for time to get to Padme.

For a guy who yells out "You were my brother!" and " I loved you!" dont you think that he would be trying a little harder before the duel to get Anakin to turn back? Like saying stuff like "Anakin come back" or "I can feel the good in you (what a great parallel THAT would have been)."

It just seems that OB1 had very little hope of redeeming Anakin, and his business like tone before the duel and even to Padme beforehand really indicate that OB1 had resigned himself to the fact that he was gonna have to do something that he didnt want to do (kill Anakin) and even pled with Yoda so he wouldnt have to. If he really had intentions on saving Anakin, dont you think he would be a little more fired up and enthusiastic about helping the guy he "loved" like a "brother?"

 

Even after Obi-Wan realises Anakin is a Sith before the Duel starts, he still calls him *Anakin*. In the duel in ANH, he only calls him *Darth*. I think it's clear that in RotS he hasn't yet delineated the two, he still cares about *Anakin* personally.

-sj loves kevin spacey

 

If he really had intentions on saving Anakin, dont you think he would be a little more fired up and enthusiastic about helping the guy he "loved" like a "brother?"

It's not about how we view it or what Obi-Wans true intentions were - it's about how AnaVader views it, he doesn't know about the Yoda/Obi or the Padme/Obi conversations.

- O_F