Obesity is a choice

A car with no gas will no go nowhere - a car with some gas will go somewhere - how far the car goes depends on the size of engine, and how much gas you put in. The less gas you put in any car, the lesser distance it will travel. Its pointless comparing two cars, however the trend remains universal - the less gas you put in any given car, the less distance it will travel.

Your crap analogy supports my arguement, not yours.

Claiming weight loss isn't "practical" is utter comical nonsense.

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just to point out the nonsense conclusion you've arrived at :- if you pulled all the legs off a dog, and then asked it to "come here Rover" and it didn't...........would you conclude the dogs ears were in its feet?

please, please, please, please stop making crap analogies and make your point with clear arguements.

edit3

Using the concentration camps as an example is just plain wrong.

No it isn't. It's a real life example which relates directly to the point I am making. If you disagree, then please explain where fat comes from if it is not from what goes into your mouth. That is the only point I am making.

 

my "crap" analogy was to show how stupid the concentration camp arguement is. People living in concentration camps were starved and given no food for days at a time. It just isn't practical to live like that, thus I made a "crap" comparision of putting no gas in my three different vehicals that I own, it is the exact same concept, no food, no gas.

Question, are you stating that everyone's genetics are exactly the same?

Do you know how many people die each year from starving themselves and stupid crash diets?

 

[math geek]Your math is wrong.

To calculate miles per gallon, you divide the number of miles traveled by the number of gallons used. If the number of gallons is 0, the result of the equation is undefined (although the limit approaches either positive or negative infinity, depending on the direction you come from).

Kimball Kinnison

 

do you deny my arguement that concentration camps prove it is possible for anyone to lose weight ?

of course different people have different genetics which influences how their body deals with their diet, but that doesn't alter the fact that anyone can lose weight, and obesity is merely a choice. do you deny that?

plenty of people die from starving themselve for various reasons, thats *as* stupid as making yourself obese. however, thats completely irrelevant to the point I am making :- FACT - anyone can lose weight FACT - obesity is a choice

 

Your concentration camp argument is crap because it is a situation where there was no individual control. I could just as easily create a camp where we stuff your mouth full of food with a gun to your head. In that camp, obesity is never a choice, at least not a choice made by the individual. Just because its economically a lot cheaper to work people to death without feeding them than it is to pointlessly stuff them with food for some sick desire to put them in ovens for more delicious reasons doesn't mean anything.

You act as if humans are mere robots that *might* have different energy requirements. Yes at some point you put no energy in and you get nothing from any machine. The problem of course is that our biological systems are not that simple. We have a complex system of hormones, brain functions, and even a bunch of nerves in our guts that are meant to regulate our intake of energy. We then have another system that processes that energy. Neither of which are the same in every individual. Sometimes systems totally fail, and in rare cases people never can feel full. I might sound like a broken record, but just one such person disproves your absolute statement. Given that we live in a world where food is not a controlled substance, someone with a psychological disorder that drives them to eat anything available because they constantly feel like they are starving to death cannot be said to have any choice in the matter. FACT- Just because that person can be FORCED to lose weight does not change the fact that they have no choice in the matter.

There is a whole spectrum from people who can have total control over their bodies to those who have none. Some have more choice in the matter than do others. Because we will never know exactly who is fully culpable and who is completely innocent, we should treat everyone the same. And the best thing to do from a pragmatic prospective, rather than just cutting off large portions of our population to die, is to focus on the societal level to reduce levels of obesity. All of Society created the problem, and we all have a duty in fixing it. You might not be fat, but your lifestyle choices, such as not wanting to live in a concentration camp, create a situation in which some will be. So in a sense you are right. As a society we could choose to not have any fat people. The only way to do so is to remove individual choice and replace it with the will of the society with the power of the state.

I could promise you a world without fat people, but they won't have any choice in the matter.

 

why do you have trouble grasping such a simple concept?

everyone has 100% control over what goes into their mouths - hence being an unhealthy size is completely their choice.

 

Except for the fact that not everyone has control of what they do. You assume they do because you do, but you have a system where your body tells you when you have eaten enough. People without such a system have real choice in what they eat. What makes people "choose" to put things in their mouth is not a simple rational decision making choice. A whole host of genetic, biologic, and psychological factors can play into that choice, some of which by all reasonable standards completely remove that choice.

How do you abstain from food your whole life? Food isn't against the WoW, and if someone can have the same response to food as another does to alcohol, if we are going to have laws for the weakest perhaps we should restrict food distribution.

 

What makes people "choose" to put things in their mouth is not a simple rational decision making choice.

Yes it is. It is their choice if they eat or not - no-one is forcing food into their mouths. No-one turns obese overnight, so if your pants stop fitting, perhaps its time to question your diet.

 

You can argue that being overweight to begin with was because of choices (and much of it was), but I grew up in a family where we ate quite a bit, so the way I was raised influenced my choices.

I've chosen to go on a diet, but I'm still overweight, so you can't say that everyone who is overweight is consciously choosing to remain overweight. My goal is to get down to 250 pounds by Christmas, and it's going to be close, but I've already lost about 25 pounds since July (when I bought a scale and started focusing on weight loss more heavily).

 

I've chosen to go on a diet, but I'm still overweight, so you can't say that everyone who is overweight is consciously choosing to remain overweight.

But you aren't consciously choosing to remain overweight - you are consciously choosing to lose weight. Your size is a result of your choices, and you are currently choosing to reduce your weight. Your personal example proves my point perfectly.

Congrats on the weight loss, and I hope hit target by christmas!

 

Yes it is. It is their choice if they eat or not - no-one is forcing food into their mouths.

A failure of systems to tell you to stop putting food in your mouth is in effect forcing them to do so.

 

No it isn't. And when they pants stop fitting the alarm bells should start ringing.

It is a choice they make. They've just eaten 10 BigMacs, and they are sitting infront of another 10 BigMacs. They can either (a) question the fact that they've eaten so much and still feel hungry, then choose to stop eating, or (b) ignore the fact that they've eaten a ton already and choose to keep eating.

Either way it's a choice.

Besides, a failure of biological systems occurs in a tiny, tiny minority, whereas the vast, vast majority are just lazy.

 

And when you are gasping for air I suppose you should just stop it that because common sense should tell you the Earth's atmosphere isn't running out air. You have no idea how hard it must be for those people. It doesn't matter what percentage of those people there are, the fact that there exists one is enough to disprove your hypothesis. You also have no idea what sort of psychological problems people deal with that prevent them from making rational decisions.

We can either keep on blaming the victims, or actually look at the choices YOU have made along with the rest of society that leads such increased numbers of people to become obese. And if it is all "laziness," what has changed in our society that has increased the number of lazy children? Even if every fat child could be said to have made a "choice," in the eyes of the law they never had the ability to make it. Yes you can blame the parents, and in most cases you would probably be right. Of course we aren't supposed to judge people who choose to be horrible parents because then we are entering the bedroom.

Besides the people who have severe body regulation problems they never had any control over, every fat child will have been trained to be fat. They never were able to choose that lifestyle, they were taught it. When they grow up they are burdened by that childhood obesity in a way that makes it MUCH more difficult for them to loose the weight than the average person who developed unhealthy habits as an adult, at an age where they could be held legally responsible for their actions. The two are not morally equivalent, and should not be treated equally. The first was failed by society, the second, if they were a healthy adult, failed all by themselves. It would be grossly unfair to look simply at the scale or whatever other measure because that does not take into other important factors.

If children can't make decisions for themselves in any other area of their lives, why are you holding them accountable for what they eat?

 

I am not sure if I agree with the "it's so hard for these people to lose weight" point or not. On one hand, we all know that there are lots of ways to lose weight and that there are people who succeed at it. I personally know a couple of overweight people who wanted to lose some fat, and if they failed - it was always because of their own weaknesses. They admitted it themselves.

On the other hand, I have this 12-year-old cousin who had to be put on diet because fat was actually dangerous for her spine. I will never blame her for being fat, because I know it wasn't her fault that the whole family kept on stuffing food in her (all kids in our family were non-eaters, so when she happened, everybody got to love her appetite, and... well). But the girl is trying hard and I hope she'll make it

Back to the topic, I think that hardly anyone chooses to become obese. But people who stay obese do it mostly by choice, mostly because of laziness. Why they become obese in the first place - well, I would blame it on the modern society. I happen to come from a country that still hasn't reached the level of UK or US, but I see that obesity rates are going up as we get closer... Cars replace walking (or using public transport, which usually makes you walk anyway), food gets cheaper but more nutritious, people spend more time sitting. It takes some effort not to be overweight in such an environment. I'm not saying it's an excuse, though. The society presents us with lots of ways to put on weight, but also just as many to, well, move.

 

Espaldapalabras I'd hold off posting the bleeding heart stories, because they are totally irrelevant.

And when you are gasping for air I suppose you should just stop it

Again, back to this nonsense. You can't control your air intake, but you can control your food intake.

You have no idea how hard it must be for those people.........You also have no idea what sort of psychological problems people deal with

Please don't tell me what I do and don't know unless you are willing to hunt down and post the marks I got for psychology at University (which were pretty stunning btw)


It doesn't matter what percentage of those people there are, the fact that there exists one is enough to disprove your hypothesis.

Sorry, but my hypothesis is that anyone can lose weight, and I'm right. My hypothesis is also that you are a product of what you eat, and again I'm right. You and only you control what goes into your mouth, and its time that the obese took responsibility and accountability for their actions.

 

How can you control your food intake when your gas gauge is broken? It would be like being forced to drive a car that shot you with a taser every time you gauge went on empty, and somehow when that that is broken most people wouldn't frantically try to continually fill the tank. Funny how when you fix the gauge, or in this case medically help remove the desire to eat, people just naturally limit what they eat and it becomes much easier for them to control themselves.

I can say what you don't know because you believe in a binary world where every individual is the same. You refuse to accept the whole host of complex factors that limit choice for individuals and think that what we choose to put in our bodies is some sort of equivalent of Homo economicus. It is never that simple, and you have handily ignored everything said about the role of society.

My examples weren't meant to illicit emotion, I simply fail to see how an obese child can "take responsibility and accountability for their actions" when by law they cannot do so for any other aspect of their lives. Seeing how statistically it is much harder for an adult who was an obese child to loose weight than it is for any other obese person, clearly their choices were limited by their parents and society. The drug addict who from birth was addicted to crack and given it up until their 18th birthday is clearly not as responsible for their actions as is the model child who at 21 decides to go out and get stoned.

We are going to go on and on about this, so perhaps we could move towards what we can do to solve the problem rather than trying to figure out whose fault it is. And in a way I suppose I can understand where you come from because I think homosexuality is a choice. (People have a lot more choice with what they do with their genitals and what they put in their mouths )

It seems to me you are simply advocating some type of abstinence only system where we just tell people not to overeat. To just say "take responsibility" doesn't seem to actually solve anything. If we could live in a world where you have no choice but to exercise to get the food you eat, then we wouldn't have any fat people. The question is how do we do this without removing individual liberties? Perhaps obesity is simply the natural result of what happens when you have a free and rich society. I think you have mentioned a tax on fat, but how do we do that while making sure those who already don't get enough calories don't starve?

Like programs for child health insurance, I think any effort should focus first on the disadvantaged children whose parents have already proven themselves not up to task of raising them. We already have food programs for them, and if we don't give them unhealthy food they won't have much choice to get fat in the first place. I always hated PE, but perhaps if the focus was more on being healthy than hitting your fellow classmates with balls, it might work better. I was a healthy child, but because I had grow so tall so fast I was terribly uncoordinated, and in our culture if you aren't good at sports, you tend to think of yourself as unathletic. I would also suggest we try more New Urbanism to get people onto the streets.

 

I would first distinguish between "regular" and pathological obesity... Vast majority of obese people doesn't have any kind of this sophisticated problems you mention. Changing one's lifestyle is not easy, but really, it's not like everyone needs medical treatment to lose weight. And if it's the first thing they try, before exercising and diet, then sorry - "psychic problem" is just a poor excuse for laziness.

 

Question: Would the idea of removing health care if you're overweight also extend to not giving treatment programs for people that have addictions to alcohol, tobacco, or other drugs? Especially as it relates to a national health care scheme?

 

I believe feeling homosexual is genetically influenced, however I would agree that being in a homosexual relationship is a choice. However, I believe homosexuality is perfectly natural, whereas being severely overweight is not. (I have in the past argued my point in the homosexuality thread, about the benefits to society of having a homosexual population (ie a natural value to homosexuality), but that's really off topic in here)

I do agree that discussing a solution would be better than a circular arguement of "its a choice", "no it isnt". However, I'm unwilling to be overly tolerant of "softly-softly" approaches to a solution, where the problem simply shouldn't exist in the first place.

My feeling is that people can be obesity if they want to, however they should be prepared to deal with the consequences. Specifically I would not accepted obesity, or obesity-evoked diseases to be an excuse for unemployment. I'd be happy to organise funding/benefits if they agreed to lose weight, with the understanding that failure to lose weight would result in revoking of said benefits.

I'd also be happy people were more personally responsible for their healthcare costs. I fully believe that many people would act significantly differently if they knew that treatment for their self-inflicted body-state would cost them significantly. Thats really all we need - adjustment of attitude of those people who honestly can lose weight and avoid healthcare issues. That should allow the healthcare system to better focus on those with significant health issues which make it extremely difficult for them to lose weight.

I don't advocate removing health care for anyone, I just simply want people to pay for the healthcare which could easily have been avoided through better choices. Same goes for dangerous sports etc etc. Why should I foot the bill because someone drinks themselves into needing a new liver?

 

Here is a question I want to ask. How proud can I be that I am in shape and fit? I mean, it takes a good bit of discipline to go to the gym 3+ times a week and actually do a good workout. Also it takes a good amount of self control to eat healthy. Can I be proud of that? Obviously I won't rub it in peoples faces that I am physically better than them (or is even thinking about it in those terms showing arrogance?)? I also won't let it go to my head. I am not an athletic god, but I am healthy, which is a heck of a lot better than many Americans. Is it ok for me to have good self esteem because of this?

This is a completely weird connection that is somewhat off topic, that only makes sense in my head, and will probably be promptly ignored. However the idea that it is our choice to be obese or not to me is similar to the idea that it is our choices that send us to hell or heaven (from some Christians POV). Think about it, both are consequences of our actions that we are to some degree responsible for. We may not understand our choices, we may not intend these consequences, we may think we have good reasons for not doing the right thing, there is debate if it is really a choice or not, but in the end we are up ****s creek without a paddle.

 

I feel a bit like talking to myself in this thread, but I shall make one comment... you do realize that it doesn't necessarily take hard-core workout and fully controlled diet not to be obese?

 

First of all, I'd agree its completely illogical for them to use weight to get out of work. I don't buy that at all. That said, the issue is that you're in a system of universal health care. And in that case, I don't think there is a valid justification for denial of services for nearly anything, given that it is a forced system.

I don't advocate removing health care for anyone, I just simply want people to pay for the healthcare which could easily have been avoided through better choices. Same goes for dangerous sports etc etc. Why should I foot the bill because someone drinks themselves into needing a new liver?[/quote]
This is further why I'm opposed to universal health care. With the American system, much as it needs work, people become aware of the costs of their health issues, which adds incentive. And if they don't change it, then they still are responsible for those increased costs, either by the costs of treatment, or increased health care premiums.

 

I don't advocate removing health care for anyone, I just simply want people to pay for the healthcare which could easily have been avoided through better choices. Same goes for dangerous sports etc etc. Why should I foot the bill because someone drinks themselves into needing a new liver?[/quote]
This is further why I'm opposed to universal health care. With the American system, much as it needs work, people become aware of the costs of their health issues, which adds incentive. And if they don't change it, then they still are responsible for those increased costs, either by the costs of treatment, or increased health care premiums.[/quote]

I agree that would be fairer; but what an administrative nightmare!! During their health exam do you have doctors judging whether or not they are fat because of over-eating?

 

Yo_Raja True, but the simple fact that this thread exists shows that it is not the easiest thing in the world to do (maybe I should say country instead of world ). Also it just seems that many people in this thread say how hard it is to stay in shape which IMO makes my question worth asking.

 

No, some of us contest the concept that being "in shape" means you can only have one type of body size and shape. There are plenty of people who are over a BMI of 25 who are active and participate in regular physical activity and by all means are healthy and in far better "shape" than their under BMI 25, couch potato, smoker, etc counterparts. In fact, one poster detailed his routine and the fact that his body is resisting further weightloss. His routine certainly would make him "in shape" IMO.