Obi-Wan-A Character Workshop: PT Obi and OT Obi: The Whole Package

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by obi_ew, Aug 1, 2003.

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  1. CYNICAL21 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    I still have almost no time to cogitate here - but feel compelled to dash off a few thoughts.

    The difference, from my perspective, between 'a certain point of view' and 'your focus determines your reality' is more a question of intent than material difference. Both conditions require a willingness to ignore that which does not support one's preconditioned conclusions - but the focus thing would seem to indicate that the observor must first CHOOSE what he wishes to observe, thus guiding his conclusions. The 'point of view' strikes me as being a more random process - a function of where one happens to be in relation to a subject.

    And then there's the only, real TRUE (in my judgement) explanation for Obi-Wan's failure to divulge the truth to Luke - which is - TA DA - at the time - when he was speaking of Luke's father - 'good friend' - 'finest star pilot in the galaxy'- 'murdered by Darth Vader' - all of these comments were made - are you ready for it - WHEN THEY WERE STILL THE TRUTH! Because, when Obi-WAn told Luke about Anakin, The Mighty Bearded Lucas had not yet had his major brainstorm - and Darth Vader had not yet morphed into Luke's father. Although there are many bones of contention among SW fans - and not everyone will agree on this conclusion - there IS pretty much universal consensus that the story George wound up making is NOT the same, elementary story he first set out to make - which is probably true of EVERY movie ever made, or, at least, every series. Movies - like all stories - evolve over time, and it was truly a stroke of genius, and made everything much more dramatic in the end - but it did one thing that had not originally been intended. It made of Obi-Wan - who was always meant to represent honor and sacrifice and nobility - an idol with feet of clay, and turned him into a dissembler and a liar - and Lucas then had to scramble to find an adequate explanation. And thus - TA DA - a 'certain point of view' is born.

    Qui-Gon, on the other hand, had no such excuse - and took the first step, in his instructions to Anakin, to enabling the Chosen One in his journey to the Darkside.

    As for what age to write - I love him at any age. For me, he is and ever will be (and always was) the classic, tragic hero - and I'm just grateful to be able to write him at all.

    CYN
  2. Phoenix_Reborn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 4
    I think, at the moment, I prefer writing Obi in his teen years...Not really sure why, but I think it has something to do with the fact that as a teen, he is expected to put his foot in his mouth, make mistakes, get kidnapped, etc...It seems like his early padawan years are the years that shape his life...and since he's Obi, the amount of trouble he can get into seems to be endless.
  3. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    Qui-Gon, on the other hand, had no such excuse - and took the first step, in his instructions to Anakin, to enabling the Chosen One in his journey to the Darkside.

    Okay Cyn ! Hurry back and expound on that one please! :D
  4. Jedi_Humaira_Blaine Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Apr 27, 2003
    star 5
    What a great thread idea obi_ew! :D

    I've just finished my first Obi-Wan/Qui Gon fic and I know that a thread like this will help all Obi-Wan writers immensly! :D

    I hope to be able to contribute to this thread and learn from all the talented authors here! [face_blush]




  5. astroanna Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2002
    star 4
    Wow! This has been a busy thread! :)

    Again, great idea, obi-ew!

    As for the age I prefer to write Obi-Wan, I confess I haven't written that much, but I've written him a couple of years older than he was in Episode II (about 37-40) and I'm in the process of writing a fic in which he's 13 and then later he's 18...

    I suppose it's all a matter of preference and which age any particular author wants to write him. I think it also has to do with the era any particular author feels comortable writing in...

    :)
  6. Shaindl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 4
    I promised OE that I'd take on the question Cyn posed, but I'll start with the easy stuff first. :D

    I like writing/reading about Obi-Wan from approx. 25-35 or so, for the reason that I enjoy thinking through the struggle he had when he suddenly had to balance everything that had landed on his plate. His Master's death, being knighted, and then saddled immediately with a headstrong and reckless apprentice must have done an incredible number on his psyche. What a fight to figure out how the new pieces of his life fit together while still standing in the ruin of the old one.

    Second, NeonStar - what an incredibly interesting perspective! I know that's the kind of insight that OE was hoping to provoke when she started this thread. For the question that came out of it that OE posed, I would be interested in hearing from those who grew up watching TPM first. I grew up weaned on ANH and ESB, and the first film I remember watching in a theatre is ROTJ. I always saw Obi-Wan as the loving, caring, wise grandfather type, and when he shows up with Anakin at the end of ROTJ, it never fails to get a sniffle from me, especially when they smile at each other as if everything has finally been forgiven. Like I said earlier though, I was always mad at Obi-Wan for not trusting Luke with all his information - I always wondered if Luke would have handled things differently if he had known. But in the end, I guess I see him like a lot of people here - the tragic hero who sacrificed himself for everyone else and to ensure that there was a future for the Jedi and the galaxy.

    Now as for Cyn's question, I've been thinking about it all weekend, when I should have been listening to the rabbi at synagogue. :D

    The difference, from my perspective, between 'a certain point of view' and 'your focus determines your reality' is more a question of intent than material difference. Both conditions require a willingness to ignore that which does not support one's preconditioned conclusions - but the focus thing would seem to indicate that the observor must first CHOOSE what he wishes to observe, thus guiding his conclusions. The 'point of view' strikes me as being a more random process - a function of where one happens to be in relation to a subject.

    I more or less agree with you, but I would have switched the two phrases. Both involve an individual choice on some level, but where for you "focus" is deliberate, and "point-of-view" is random, for me it's the other way around. When Obi-Wan says "from a certain point of view" in ESB, he has made a conscious choice to look at and present the facts in a certain way, all of which support his conclusion or how he wanted the story to come out. The choice was his. "Focus", on the other hand, for me represents a state of mind in which the person has been shaped by external influences, in this case the Jedi. A child of the Jedi is told from on high (the Council, Masters, teachers, etc.) what their focus is to be, and while there is choice in how one carries out that focus, it is not as deliberate a choice as with the presentation of a certain POV.

    What this debate might boil down to is a question of nature vs. nurture. Focus is nurtured; a POV might be inherent in one's nature. In other words, the feelings and emotions on which POV is based are there from birth - and there ain't nothin to be done about 'em. :D

    I'll leave it there and see how others respond. Why do I suddenly feel like I'm in one of my university theory classes?

    Shaindl
  7. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    Zoooommm!!!! That's me running past this whole discussion! :p Not even gonna try! My poor wee little brain just exploded from reading your response Shaindl ! :D
  8. Cascadia Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 15, 2002
    star 4
    Okay, guys. These definitions are from dictionary.com. I just thought I'd throw them out there since I'm not the type of person who enjoys debating. [face_mischief]

    point of view

    A manner of viewing things; an attitude.

    A position from which something is observed or considered; a standpoint.

    The act of seeing or beholding; sight; look; survey; examination by the eye; inspection.

    Mental survey; intellectual perception or examination; as, a just view of the arguments or facts in a case.

    Power of seeing, either physically or mentally; reach or range of sight; extent of prospect.

    That which is seen or beheld; sight presented to the natural or intellectual eye; scene; prospect; as, the view from a window.

    Mode of looking at anything; manner of apprehension; conception; opinion; judgment; as, to state one's views of the policy which ought to be pursued.

    That which is looked towards, or kept in sight, as object, aim, intention, purpose, design; as, he did it with a view of escaping.


    focus

    A center of interest or activity.

    Close or narrow attention; concentration.

    A central point; a point of concentration.

    maximum clarity or distinctness of an idea

  9. CYNICAL21 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 2001
    star 4
    I don't have TIME for this - but I'll make one brief - REALLY brief - observation. Think about a camera. When one sets out to capture an image, one must first CHOOSE which image to capture; one can focus on the grand old oak tree - thus reducing the rest of the forest to a blur of undefined greenery - of one can allow the single tree to fade into the overall image. What one can NOT do - is both, unless we get into distortions and avant-garde photography - and we're not going there, are we?

    I'll be back when I can - but think about it. In order to focus on one thing - one facet - one image - one must allow everything else to become blurred and surreal. Where - in that process - is reality? :eek:

    I know - I'm an evil witch - but how do we grow, if never challenged? :D

    CYN
  10. Shaindl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 4
    Cyn, I like your analogy, but I think I can make it feed into my point (my POV? Never mind... :D ). By choosing to focus on the big oak, the one holding the camera is carrying out what they have been taught - in this case to focus on the single element instead of the whole. Yes, it leaves the rest of the forest blurred and surreal, but that is what our fictitious photographer has been taught to do.

    And I, like you, do not have time for this - I have a Masters advisor who will be very cranky with me if I don't have a paper to hand to him soon. :D

    Cheers,

    Shaindl

    PS: Cyn, I saw when you wrote somewhere else that debate is dying on these boards. Hope I can take up the slack somewhat... :)
  11. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    [face_plain] So, Obi-Wan was so focused on doing whatever it took in order to hide and protect the twins from the Emperor and Daddy Dearest that you can't really accuse him of lying, because at that point in time, what he said was reality? * head explodes a second time * Am I completely lost here? Has the ship left port and I'm still standing on the dock? :p
  12. red rose knight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2001
    star 4
    ::peeks in and wonders if it is safe::

    Oh, don't worry OE. :) I had a brain frying day and all this lovely discussion in blurring together.

    I am not going to try to answer anything because I couldn't say anything as complete or as eloquent as some of the lovely writers here. :D
  13. PaddyJuan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 15, 2002
    star 4
    Just a quick note for now. Will cheerfully confuse myself with the discussions later.

    It's not so much that he was consciously lying. When he originally said that Luke's father had been killed with the rest of the Jedi, that was the truth as he knew it then. Due to the Great Flanneled One's sudden enlightenment, we now know that Obi-Wan was separating HIS Anakin, his apprentice, from Darth Vader in his mind. At least that is how I interpret his 'from a certain point of view'.

    As to what he would and wouldn't do to accomplish his mission, that is another discussion.


  14. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    I can relate, o_e. **brain fried after reading debating posts**

    But its great that this thread is so successful, and with such a nice atmosphere. :)

    And, as a little side note, I was saying that most of my fics are 20-25..I was laying in bed, thinking over my stories, and I realized all of my current works take place when he's about 35! [face_laugh] I have numerous stories sitting around that aren't good enough to post anywhere, and those are the ones where he's younger. [face_blush]
  15. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    So LE , does that mean that you told the truth, but from a certain point of view? :p

    Still brainstorming for a good first challenge. Any help here would be hot! :D
  16. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    [face_laugh]

    I had a thought about a topic, but it might be a little dim. I might PM you with it or something later on. ;) I'll just wait and see if something better develops first.
  17. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    Yoda always says do or do not. I have a feeling this will be more "do not" than "do" but here goes...

    *covers furniture in case brain explodes* Oh wait, that already happened :p

    I can't brew up any coherent thoughts in the main discussion, but I can say this--I agree with PaddyJuan. It seemed to me that Obi-Wan thought of Anakin and Vader as two separate people because in a way, they were--not just in personality but in everything they represented and believed in. Anakin was a man of the Light, Vader a machine (figuratively and literally) of Dark. Plus, Anakin was a Jedi--that was his identity, like every other Jedi. I think Obi-Wan found it difficult to see Vader as the Jedi he once knew (well, for more than the obvious reasons). And interestingly enough, I read somewhere that Lucas had always intended for Vader to be Luke's father--from the very beginning. Maybe he was just trying to tie up some loose plot points, who knows? Obi-Wan's statements always made more sense when I looked at them in that light.

    I'm terrible at philosophical discussions, but I'll be back with some semi-intelligible thoughts later...once I clean off the furniture :D
  18. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    Well, that would make sense now that I think about it. Being Jedi to the bone, I imagine Obi-Wan couldn't conceive that a Jedi, especially his beloved Padawan ( and yes I believe they loved each other as much as any brothers could)could turn and do the things Vader ended up doing. Obi-Wan does always refer to Vader as Darth, even when they are face to face and there is no one around to over hear. Hum.... Good job! :D

  19. Sheila Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2002
    star 4
    ** Runs in panting with oe hot on her heels **

    I am here oe, you can put away the cattle prod now! :D

    Wonderful thread by the way. I am more reader than writer on these boards but as an avid Obi-Wan fan I find this discussion fascinating.

    I saw ANH when I was 14 (yes, in the theatres back in 1970's :eek: ). I didn't want to see it and waited until the end of summer when a friend nagged me into it. We arrived late and missed the little prologue so I spent the first half of the movie wondering what in the hell was going on. [face_laugh]

    However, I ended up loving the movie and waiting in an enormous line to be one of the first to see ESB. I always thought of old Ben as an anchor for Luke. I did not truly see him as a tragic hero until TPM. It wasn't until seeing him as a young man with his own life stretched out in front of him and then the foreboding ending of that movie that I realized the tremendous sacrifice he was forced to make.

    As far as his keeping the truth from Luke, I always felt that his "certain point of view" comment reflected his own point of view. I too think that Obi-Wan drew a line between Anakin and Darth Vader. His story of Vader killing Luke's father was his own feelings on what happened. The darkside consumed Anakin Skywalker until he was no more and Darth Vader was the personification of evil left behind. I believe he did not think that Vader could be redeemed but it did not change his feelings for Anakin. As far as he was concerned, Anakin was a good friend and was lost when his choices let the darkside consume his life. That is why the final scene where they are all standing together makes sense to me, I don't think Obi-Wan felt there was anything to forgive, Anakin had been returned to them and he was happy to see him once more.

    I watch the original trilogy with a more careful eye now that TPM and AOTC have come out. Those movies have given us more insight into Obi-Wan and his relationship with Anakin and it makes me see the interaction between Obi-Wan and Luke in a whole new light.

    As far as my favorite age to write Obi-Wan, well I have only written one vignette and poor Obi-Wan was almost 13. I have a couple of other ideas for stories and they usually happen in the late JA time period. I think I like this era because it is pre-Anakin.

    Cool thread oe. Thanks for the invite to check it out. :)
  20. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    * puts cattle prod back in her holster * :D Nice to see you! Finally! ;)

    You guys are really doing an excellent job of making me rethink how I view the OT and especially Obi. It makes me want to go back and re watch them with all of these new theories in my mind. :)
  21. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    I think I like this era because it is pre-Anakin.

    [face_laugh] Such a nice period, isn't it? :D
  22. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    **hears crickets**

    All quiet on the Obi front. 8-}

    Up. ;)
  23. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    Bad LE! :D

    Okay guys we have a first challenge! Yippiee!!! :D Have to give the credit to Shaindl , it was her idea. :)

    In one post, show Obi-Wan doing the same activity, but at different ages and his different perspectives on it as he matures.

    It can be something as simple as reacting to a familiar sound, place, a favorite pass time, a friends presence etc.

    I am going to PM Kit and see if it will be alright to open a thread on the Saga Board where we can post them and reply. If she gives the thumbs up, I will get the thread up and going Monday the 11th. This gives me the weekend to hopefully get something done to put up with the thread! :p


    Get busy writing! And remember not to post them here! Wait till Monday for the thread! :) Anyone needing help or who has questions, put those up here.

    Good luck! I think it will be fun! :D
  24. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    What? [face_devil]

    Wonderful idea, Shaindl and obi_ew. I'm sure it'll have a great response. ;)
  25. Darth_Leia_6669 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 26, 2003
    star 4
    I've been reading this for the last few days, but couldn't respond until now. (I swear, DRL hates me :_|) Anyways, I like the challenge, and may even try it, but I don't know if I'll have the time or not. But I did want to chime in with my thoughts on this facinating character.

    I didn't get into Star Wars until I was 16-17, and at that time, Obi-Wan seemed more like a side character, stepping in when needed, but disappearing for the rest of it. I will admit that at that time, I wasn't into fanfic, or even trying to figure characters out. I was just along for the ride, so to speak.

    It's only been recently that I've looked into the characters more in depth. Most of the comments above I would be repeating in my analysis of Obi. He is a great person, but not without his share of flaws. These flaws wouldn't have had such an impact on the galaxy if he hadn't had to train Anakin. This is when the 'Jedi box' backfires. He was the model Jedi, but lacked much understanding when it came to his apprentice. Before I get flamed, I don't blame Obi for Anakin's fall, but he was a factor.

    Sorry if this is a little incoherant, but my mind and conscious went to lunch, and my ego don't know what to do! Anyways, I'll pop back in when my brain comes back together.

    --later--
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