Obi-Wan-A Character Workshop: PT Obi and OT Obi: The Whole Package

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by obi_ew, Aug 1, 2003.

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  1. Shaindl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 4
    Oh no, you were most certainly not the only one ticked off by that fight scene. I was soooooo angry at it and I would have yelled at the screen but I think that would have made my fiance mad. :D I couldn't understand how this young man - I figure 35 is pretty young in a universe as advanced as the Star Wars galaxy - couldn't take an ancient guy who could barely move as fast as a snail. Especially when he took on and beat soundly a young and agile Sith not ten years before. I just wanted to yell "why are you just lying there? Get up! Do something!" One of the greatest living Jedi, former Padawan to one of the finest swordsmen the Order has seen in hundreds of years, and Master to the Chosen One, and he gets pasted like that? Forgetting the first two points, would the Jedi Council have let Obi train Anakin if he was an incompetent moron when it came to Force manipulation, concentration and sabre work? Please. I wanted to smack GL through that whole scene.

    EDIT1: Congrats on 100 posts, OE!

    EDIT2: He moved and fought better in the cantina scene in ANH than he did in that stupid fight scene in AOTC!
  2. Phoenix_Reborn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 4
    It's simple...Obi was on drugs-

    Well not really.

    Obi-Wan was a victim of plot points the whole last half of the movie. I mean he kicked ass in the early part of the battle- but seriously- even his capture was a plot device. From where I was sitting Obi should have been able to kick the droidkas rears- he should have been better than he was.

    To paraphrase Lucas- the whole OT was about the redemption of Skywalker...

    Obi was just a plot device.
  3. Darth_Tim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 4
    Well, in the guy's defense, he was probably worn out - captured, interrogated, then fighting in the arena.

    He defeated Maul because Maul made a stupid mistake.

    Droidekas are bad news, even if you're a Jedi, if they are the kind with shields. Deflecting the shot back at them won't do any good, and they have a high rate of fire...too many and you're pinned down quick, and no chance to get close enough to them to slice 'em with your saber.

    One thing I don't get, is why he couldn't seem to figure out "What in the blazes is he doing on Tatooine?" Considering Ani had just told him about his dreams, and there's really no other reason to go back there, why didn't he figure out it was because of Shmi?

    -Tim
  4. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    To paraphrase Lucas- the whole OT was about the redemption of Skywalker...

    Obi was just a plot device.


    And yet, Lucas has said that Obi-Wan was the center of the entire SW saga. [face_plain] That man is great at confusing people.

    I have to disagree with everyone about Obi-Wan's incapacitation during the end battle. These weren't minor scrapes, as you can see with the burning, sizzling red flesh. In my opinion, they were pretty deep. He tries to move, but can't.

    I think the true stupidity, in relation to realistic points, is that Anakin gets a limb lopped off, and is barely ever unconscious. I'm sorry, but Jedi or not, he wouldn't be able to stand so soon after losing an arm. Obi-Wan had a difficult time standing, and his wounds weren't as severe.

    Maul and Dooku were two different fighters. Since Dooku has been trained as both Jedi and Sith, he has a plethora of techniques to employ, and is far more experienced. Maul was gifted, but he was also as fevered and reckless as Obi-Wan during the Ep.1 duel. There was a thick, palpable hate between them. Dooku is not fueled by the same emotion. His entire nature is based on a quest for power--not to maliciously murder any Jedi he sees, as is the case with Maul. Although he did want to defeat Obi-Wan, I think he respected him, or else he never would have tried to recruit him.

    Just my thoughts. :)
  5. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    I totally agree about the Droidekas Tim! Nasty critters, especially for one Jedi to handle. There were alot of things about the film and Obi-Wan that bothered me. One was very tiny but it just urked me! Why everytime he tried to contact Anakin did he repeat his full name? Does he think Anakin has short term memory loss? Or perhaps there are several Obi-Wan Kenobi's roaming the galaxy?

    Another question I have is, why did Dooku tell him everything and ask him to join him? Was that something he wanted for himself? Or was Palpy in on it? Did they think Obi could be another ally?
  6. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    I have to disagree with LE. I thought Obi-Wan lying there on the floor in the AOTC lightsaber scene was pathetic (and very out of character, IMO). Oh, I'm so hurt that I'll lie there and have a big ugly pillar fall on me....don't think so. And Anakin lying there like a lump, unconcious. His son, Luke, at least screamed and tried to get away from Vader but Anakin didn't even whimper. That whole scene was a build-up for the big Yoda/Dooku fight. I would rather have seen Obi and Anakin kick Dooku's butt, both of them hurt or not, rather than the Yoda thing. I fast-forward past that scene every time (unlike the TPM lightsaber duel where I use slow play).
  7. Sheila Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2002
    star 4
    Why everytime he tried to contact Anakin did he repeat his full name? Does he think Anakin has short term memory loss? Or perhaps there are several Obi-Wan Kenobi's roaming the galaxy? [face_laugh]

    LMAO oe! [face_laugh]

    I have to agree that the last scene was totally out of character. I mean look at how Obi-Wan fought against Jango earlier in the fic. That was more like the Obi-Wan from TPM. At the end, the wounds may have been severe but both Obi-Wan and Anakin managed to rise to their feet the minute Dooku was gone. I know that Lucas just wanted to get big bad Yoda in there, but he should have injured Obi-Wan a little more so that it wouldn't have looked odd that he just layed there and watched the fight not to mention doing nothing to protect himself or his padawan from the falling pillar. :(
  8. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    Actually, Sheila, all Lucas had to do was get wardrobe and makeup to make it look a lot worse. I would have accepted it if Obi had looked worse and didn't get up as soon as Dooku left. I just shake my head every time I see it!!!
  9. Phoenix_Reborn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 4
    Or perhaps there are several Obi-Wan Kenobi's roaming the galaxy?


    Well according to the stories on the boards, there must be...

    In ROTJ or ESB (I don't remember for sure) when Luke nails Vader in the shoulder, it's a harder blow, goes through the armor and leather, yet Vader keeps fighting...

    I was under the impression nothing would weaken a sabre's blow...'cept for something from the books, but if leather seems to dampen it, why weren't all the Jedi issued leather tunics?
  10. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    and didn't get up as soon as Dooku left.

    Yeah, that's a mistake I've noticed in a lot of films/television shows. That's where I believe the error was in that scene. Maybe more people would have believed the severity of Obi-Wan and Anakin's wounds if they lingered on the floor, instead of recovering enough the instant the danger has passed. [face_plain]

    And diagreeing with me, diane? Hmmm...what's new? 8-}

    I didn't find Obi-Wan lying on the ground in AOTC pathetic. It's not like he didn't put up a worthy fight, or he hadn't been depleting his energy from the series of battles in the Geonosis arena. But what do I know? **shrugs** I guess everyone perceives it differently. :)
  11. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    Actually, I'm finding this discussion of the Dooku/Obi/Anakin fight scene interesting. I was at one of the SW club meetings last month and we talked about this very scene. All of the guys thought it was terrific and a lot of the women thought it needed more punch and evidence of how much Obi was hurt.

    Hi, LE - And we don't disagree all the time....LOL.

    I just thought, mainly, that the Obi-Wan I saw in that scene was very out of character (unlike the Jango battle scene on Kamino which was so in character it hurt). The "not good" still makes me quiver - that was definitely Obi-Wan! I wonder if Ewan argued at all with Lucas about the Dooku scenes...

  12. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    Here here! in Menace, Obi-Wan is suppossedly tired and bruised from his fall, which is why he didn't Force run in order to help Qui. And yet he manages to engage Maul in this spectacular bouncing off the walls fight! And then in Clones, he is tired from fighting but can barely hold his own with old Doodo! I just expected more, which like I mentioned before, Lucas will no doubt have him jumping from buildings like Spiderman in Episode 3 and we are supposed to buy it! :p
  13. Shaindl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 4
    I'm always amazed at how many plot holes in both stories and films can be fixed by simply adding a couple more minutes or a sentence or two. In Clones, all George had to do was have Obi and Ani stay where they were looking injured, and have ol' Yoda hobble over to check on them. Show him calling for help or something. That's it - that's all it would have taken for me to buy that scene.

    And OE? I'll buy Obi bouncing off the walls like Spiderman - it's that scene in Clones I won't buy! :D

    Shaindl
  14. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    Oh, there are definitely multiple Obi-Wans running around the galaxy (ahem, obi_ew :D )! Okay, I'll buy that his injuries in AOTC were pretty bad, but it wasn't the same as TPM. There, he was being Force-shoved, kicked, hacked at, was falling, etc. He's badly bruised and exhausted, can't Force run to help Qui-Gon, etc. I bought his fight with Darth Maul because he was attacking out of desperation and anger, considering his master was lying on the floor with a big gaping hole in his chest. I didn't buy the AOTC fight because it seemed like it was all just a big setup for Yoda/Dooku--I mean, please, that dialogue! "We must settle this with our lightsabers to see who's really the bad-ass Jedi!" "Do de do, here comes a pillar to crash on my head. Oh, I think I'll grimace a little more to show everyone I need Yoda to save me, thus giving Dooku the oh-so-perfect opportunity to escape!" Obi-Wan could've at least been knocked unconcious or been attacked by lightening--it would've made his incapacitation more credible. As for the rain fight with Jango, when I bought the AOTC DVD, the very first scene I watched after popping it into my computer was that scene, because it's my favorite :) (along with Anakin's "I killed them all!" speech, because it's just so creepy) I think it's kind of the prequel version of the ANH cantina scene, i.e. he waves his lightsaber around and says barely anything, and yet you have such a clear idea of who he is. Well, at least I do :)

    And now, stay tuned for my post on the topic that was originally in discussion! :D
  15. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    Did Obi-Wan know about l?amour?

    He obviously had his suspicions, Anakin?s ?Id rather dream about Padme? being a pretty clear statement. Later on, he voices his concerns about his apprentice having an attachment to Padme from childhood. Then, of course, there?s the kiss after the fight with Dooku (do they actually kiss?! I can?t even tell!!). Like others, I agree that he let Anakin escort Padme to Naboo as kind of a test for his apprentice, especially after witnessing Anakin?s reaction to Padme?s big girly fall on Geonosis (she made a lot of those). Plus, it was Anakin?s mission to protect the Senator, and if he can?t trust him to carry out a solo mission without losing his head, then how can he trust him during a full-scale war? And like others, I also think Obi-Wan?s hoping Padme will be a rational influence on Anakin, i.e. we can?t pursue this relationship because our duties carry us in completely divergent directions.

    I don?t think Obi-Wan knew about the actual marriage. And during the actual war, I don?t think he was overly concerned about the romance because he figured there were more important things to worry about, like people dying. Plus, there would have been enough to keep Anakin occupied and not be distracted by thinking about Padme. But little did Obi-Wan know... :eek: Plus, because Anakin was the Chosen One, Obi-Wan often overlooked the little things Anakin did, so he might have been doing the same during the war. Honestly, though, I think that Obi-Wan thought that the young lovers had put aside their feelings and were just close friends. If Anakin seemed angry, Obi-Wan probably thought it was because he still loved Padme and was still hurting from having to give her up (which of course he never did). He would never have forbid them from talking as friends, because he probably realized that if Anakin would listen to anyone besides him, it would be Padme, who, despite her girly wails, is one tough, stubborn lady who takes no stuff from Anakin (well, not yet, anyway).
  16. Shaindl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 4
    We've been ripping GL pretty hard here (and completely deserved, IMHO), but to his credit - and sorry this is so totally off-topic, but Jade made me think about this - are his incredibly strong female characters. There aren't that many of them, but Leia, Mon Mothma, Padme and all the female Jedi we're seeing now are all take-no-prisoners type people, and all of them are highly placed in their respective situations. I've always respected him for doing that, especially back in 1977 when women weren't all that highly placed in the real world, and when there were very few women in science fiction, except as helpless victims. The fact he made Leia so strong was huge for me growing up.

    More to chew on, I guess. :D

    Shaindl
  17. Darth_Tim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 4
    You're right. GL has made strong female characters, but he's managed to also make them retain their feminine side. Compare to how strong female characters in the EU are written, namely Mara Jade and Jaina Solo, who are good at what they do, but seem a great deal of the time to treat everyone around them like crap.

    -Tim
  18. Shaindl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 4
    Good point, Tim and one I should have added. They're all absolutely still women (can't comment on the EU, as I've only read the Zahn trilogy). Point for you, now. :D
  19. Darth_Tim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 4
    On a related note, that reminds me: Padme seemed like a plot device too, or, taking the deleted scenes into account, a victim of the cutting room floor. In AOTC we saw very little of the courageous, wise, and talented politician and military commander from TPM.

    -Tim
  20. Shaindl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, I have to admit at the end there, when she's got her big gun, I thought "cool chick with big blaster, but what's the point?" You could have removed her completely, and had almost the same movie. I haven't seen the DVD, so what was in the deleted scenes that I didn't see?

    And I forgot to add Shmi to that list of strong women.

    Shaindl
  21. Darth_Tim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 4
    Let's see... there was a scene of her debating the Military Creation act in the SEnate, one of her and Anakin meeting her parents on Naboo, where she talks to Anakin about her early career in politics and how her desire to serve was what drove her. There's another where she speaks to Dooku before she, Ani, and Obi are sent to the Arena, where Dooku tries to bargain with her.

    -Tim
  22. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    Interesting! Hum. I guess I've never really thought about the women in the films since there are only about 1 per film that you get to see in action. I guess that's also one point I can also give Miss JA Watson. She has created some pretty strong women in the books. Also have to agree with you Tim about Padme in Clones. Now that I think back on it, it seems that as soon as she hooks up with the Chosen One, she kinda becomes all soft and fragile, at least until the arena battle. I also thought at times that if she were the same person she was in Menace, she would have just hauled off and punched Anakin in the nose when he started acting all creepy with her. Just my thought! :D
  23. Shaindl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 4
    I personally liked the fact that Padme was able to pick the locks on her binders and then climb that pillar. And even though she got sliced by that beast (forgetting for the moment the fact that she was left with Insta-CropTop), she was still able to fight).

    And Tim, I lied, at least a couple of those scenes were on the video too. I forgot. I wish we had seen her doing more of the political work and I hope that comes through in Ep.III.

    Shaindl
  24. Darth_Tim Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 26, 2002
    star 4
    Here's another one:

    In ANH, Obi-Wan is referred to as General Kenobi, who fought with Bail Organa during the Clone Wars. WE haven't seen Obi as an officer yet, so do you think he'll get to prove himself as a military leader in E3?

    His character suggests a tendency to focus on the overall mission and a keep a cool-head when things get hairy. I think he'd make a good officer for those reasons.

    -Tim
  25. Shaindl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 4
    I hope so! We've been told we'll see that, but I'll wait until I'm in my seat in the theatre and looking up at it on a big screen to believe it. I agree with your assessment, Tim - I think he'd be a great officer, because of his ability to keep a level head. I think that maybe it was the experience on Naboo that gave him that ability - if he'd kept his head, maybe he wouldn't have been kicked and fallen off the catwalk, and would thus have had a better chance of saving Qui-Gon. I don't know - haven't read the novelisation, so I don't know any of the justifications for behaviour given in those.

    Anyone? Bueller? :D

    Shaindl
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