Obi-Wan-A Character Workshop: PT Obi and OT Obi: The Whole Package

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction and Writing Resource' started by obi_ew, Aug 1, 2003.

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  1. DebVader Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 7, 2002
    Hey, guys!

    I'm a bit of a lurker, but the discussion on this thread is so compelling that I want to speak up.

    First of all, I'm so glad that you guys were also disappointed with the Ep2 fight scenes! I thought that I was the only one. [Warning: major venting ahead ;) ]

    The Obi vs Dooku fight was anti-climatic: the camera angles in that scene make more fuss about the facial expressions than about the actual fighting -- all you really see are blurs of lightsabers rather than all their footwork and lunging and whatever. From the small glimpses that you can get of their fight, it actually would be more impressive than it looks -- if it had been shown at a different angle. But sadly, you couldn't really see what they were doing clearly enough. And the fight was really short.

    In contrast, in TPM, you could see exactly what each fighter was doing with his lightsaber, plus there were facial expressions, so it made that fight fantastic! And then Obi going down with small burns -- grr. Darth Maul was no pushover, and Obi defeated him when he was 10 years younger. And Jedi get better as they mature in their lightsaber skills, right? So that makes no sense. (And GL better not say that Obi was too "old" bc Qui-Gon in TPM was much older than Obi in AOTC, and Qui-Gon was darned good, much as I hate to say something positive about Qui bc he seems like such a cold, insensitive person...in tune with the Living Force - ha! - he's about as connected to others' feelings as a Hutt is beautiful...but I digress. ;) )

    To rectify the Ep2 fight problems, GL should have either made the fight scene longer (after all, whether or not you think Obi's victory against Maul was due to Maul's carelessness/arrogance, their fight was darned fast and long!) or given Obi more serious looking injuries (a la bloodied up Luke in ESB -- bc THOSE injuries certainly made it credible that Luke was incapable of doing anything other than hang on to that column-thingy for dear life). Obi wasn't even sweating when he went down!

    And then to have Obi-Wan lie there helplessly during the duration of Anakin AND Yoda's fight? Very out of character. And don't even get me started on the falling pillar. (Even when injured, I think Obi and Anakin could have combined enough power to hold that thing up and prevent it from crushing them.) And then getting up the moment all the danger is past? Puh-leeze! If they were really injured enough to stop fighting, then they should not be able to move at all. At least Obi would have been tending to Anakin while they were lying there, or contacting help via comlink, or something. Even amidst all his pain, (which we assume he was in, though his injuries appeared minor -- grr make his wounds worse, makeup dept!) he would've been doing SOMETHING productive. It's not like Obi-Wan to just sit back and take something (unless you're talking about his loyalty to Qui-Gon despite Qui's emotional abuse/neglect, but then I digress again... :D )

    Ditto for the Ani vs Dooku fight -- too much of that artsy fighting in the darkness with lightsabers flashing across their faces, and not enough of the actual fighting bodies. But even despite that, the fact that Ani fought with two lightsabers at a time makes up for the rest of that fight -- thereby making Anakin still seem skillful. Granted, he had a disturbing lack of reaction when his arm was cut off, but still, the fact that he lunged just in time to save his Master and that he fought with 2 lightsabers makes up for that apathy. On the other hand, Obi was just made to look weak and pathetic, and that is not in his character at all, so that made me mad!

    The Yoda vs Dooku fight was cool, but I do NOT appreciate the way that George Lucas sacrificied the 2 previous fights in order to build up the Yoda fight. And anyway, the Yoda fight was not even truly necessary. GL could have established the danger and power of Dooku through fights with Obi and Anakin alone. I mean, the audience already knows that Obi and Anakin are amazing Jedi and fighters -- Obi defeated Maul and Anakin is the
  2. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    Welcome Deb! :D Glad we could delurk you! Thank you by the way for bringing up Anakin's fight with Dooku! I hated that! Like you said, it was too dark and I don't know if Lucas was trying to be artsy or what, but I couldn't stand the flashes of faces and blades and no actual fighting! Horrible!

    It's not like Obi-Wan to just sit back and take something (unless you're talking about his loyalty to Qui-Gon despite Qui's emotional abuse/neglect, but then I digress again... ) :D That's a subject we will most certainly have to tackle soon!

    I wish I had time to look it up, maybe later today, but in the SW Insider where they discuss the various styles of fighting, I swore that the style Obi-Wan employs in Episode 2 and on through the OT, was considered to be, if done correctly, nearly unbeatable. Anakin/Vader used form V which was all about using emotions and brute strength. The article lead me to believe that Obi-Wan was indeed a better swordsman.

    I also agree about Episode 3. We need to see emotion! Tears! Heartbreak! None of this stoic, serene Jedi crude! These two have to be completely devastated by where they end up! Just my 2 cents before I rush back to work! ;)

  3. Shaindl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 18, 2002
    star 4
    Wow, Deb, you need to not lurk! What a great rant! I agreed with everything you said - I hadn't thought about how what Mace does affects how we look at the rest of the movie, but you're absolutely correct.

    I'll be back for more comments on your stuff when I get a chance, but for now, welcome, and I hope you'll speak up more often, and maybe, just maybe, come and check out the challenge thread - we could use some ranting and venting over there too, just for some kicks. :D

    Shaindl

  4. Sheila Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2002
    star 4
    Wonderful rant Deb and I think I agree with everything you threw in there. The fights in AOTC paled in comparison to TPM except for Yoda's. That was great special effects but it was not nearly as satisfying as watching Obi-Wan duel with Maul after seeing Qui-Gon get struck down.

    I sincerely understand Ewan's frustration when acting in the SW movies, they are 99% about special effects and 1% about storyline and the characters. I was looking at the TPM DVD yesterday and realized that even though I had checked out the 2nd DVD, I had never turned on the director commentary during the actual movie. I didn't even know it was there. So, I did and watched some of my favorite scenes and was very irritated (but not really surprised) to just hear them all talking about the special effects.

    During the Council scene where Qui-Gon says he will take Anakin as his apprentice, Lucas finally talks about the script instead of the effects and all he has to say is that he needed a plot device to get the boy on the mission with the Jedi. Here he has finally shown just a little emotion in his characters but he admits to just trying to move his story along.

    I sincerely hope he spends a little more time on the story and characterization in Ep III. Listening to Lucas and the others comment through the movie made me feel like I was at some mad geek fest were the techies cannot stop talking about their computers and what they can make them do. Nothing against computers and special effects (I was at one time a computer programmer afterall) but the characters and our investment in them is what makes a movie great. Sometimes, I think he has forgotten that what was loved about the original trilogy was the interaction and tension between the principle characters not just the ships blowing up and the alien costumes.

    Oh well, I better stop now before my own rant takes on a life of its own. [face_blush]
  5. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    I hope we don't have to worry so much about teh storyline this time. Apparently George is taking suggestions from the actors. And since Hayden, Natalie, and ESPECIALLY EWAN are incredible actors outside of the GFFA who know about acting and not special effects, hopefully they'll give good suggestions. Not that I mind the SFX--the movies are absolutely stunning now, but I can understand Ewan's gripe--it's hard to react to something that isn't there, even if you've got a really big imagination. I don't know, maybe George went a little overboard because he was finally making a Star Wars film that was big-budget with unbelievable technology at his fingertips. Although I honestly like the puppet Yoda better than the digital Yoda--dude, George, some things just shouldn't be messed with.

    Nice rant, DEB!! I love when people just let it all out like that. Join the fun! Lurk no more! :)

    About the strong women--I liked Padme/Amidala in TPM, because you saw her as a fighter, a very spirited leader who had the balls to question Qui-Gon's judgment--I love that "The Queen will not approve!" bit!! But you also saw her as just a young girl worried about her people. In AOTC, there was a little bit of that when Padme says she maybe wasn't ready to be queen, but too often strong Padme ended up deleted and blubbering Padme ended up on the screen. Actually, I'm really hoping there's a scene in Ep III between Padme and Obi-Wan, because I don't think Obi-Wan will just say "Oh, dear" when he finds out about the marriage. I hope he'll feel angry, upset, and betrayed. And if George says no, I hope Ewan tells him where to go and shows the emotion anyway :D

    General Kenobi--oh, he better show up!! There's the possibility for all kinds of angst--I am a Jedi, not a General, etc. As for George's favoritism, I think it's more a matter of how well-established the characters already are. We know who Obi-Wan is, more or less what he's like from watching the OT. Ewan is the opposite--not quiet, not pensive, not calm, likes to flash his "other lightsaber" in movies. Despite having someone that colorful playing the role, you can't have Obi-Wan suddenly whip off his tunic with a devilish laugh...although that would make for a goooooood movie [face_love] Mace, on the other hand--I don't think he was originally meant to be any more significant than, say, Ki-Adi-Mundi (who is nevertheless cool--I think Anakin could use some of his brain power). The idea was, let's give the part to Sam Jackson because he loves Star Wars and is willing to play any part. Let's make the Council scenes cool. Let's, at the same time, appeal to the younger audiences who know Sam from his bad-ass roles in Pulp Fiction and Do the Right Thing. But come on, this is Senor Love Daddy--he can't just sit in a chair and look wise. Therefore, in AOTC, he says some really cool lines and waves a funky lightsaber around. So I don't think it's necessarily favoritism. Obi-Wan is just as bad-ass as Mace, but if he showed it as much, as much as we would love that we'd also be saying "Huh? That's totally out of character!"

    Oh, and I bought the COOLEST toy a couple of days ago (from a collector's store--I'm such a geek!). Jedi Padawan Obi-Wan Kenobi in Jedi training gear!! It's really weird, actually, because it's got a little "Jedi Dossier" with it, which shows a picture of Obi-Wan wearing this training gear, which is all-black, and it looks like a still from TPM. Maybe a deleted scene not on the DVD? Anyone know? Anyone? Fry? Fry? "Let my Cameron gooooo." (idea stolen from Shaindl, but I really couldn't help myself)
  6. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    I have that action figure in the Ewan Shrine , Jade. The picture I think is one from Menace and they pasted it into a still of Ford from ESB when he has the big hooded coat on. I love the figure though! :D I read an article a fan who got to meet him wrote in which she had that figure for him to sign. He looked at it for quite awhile and commented how he had never seen it before! ;)
  7. Sheila Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 2002
    star 4
    I wish you didn't live so far away oe, I would love to see the Ewan Shrine. :D
  8. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    Hum. Methinks I may have to try out my digital camera soon. :D
  9. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    Actually, I have the Qui-Gon training gear action figure that matches the Obi-Wan one. Totally cool. I had intended to make the outfit but time and writing have taken over! Maybe next year....in time for Celebrations III.
  10. Phoenix_Reborn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 4
    as I hate to say something positive about Qui bc he seems like such a cold, insensitive person.

    Hiya deb, I think, I'm gunna like you!!!

    My take on the Mace killing Jango is that Obi could have killed Jango in a heartbeat, but remember, the council wanted to question him. Easier to kill than capture.

    O-E! When will we get to see that shrine...to think I'm to be in Kansas sat, and I've no opportunity to see it-

    Ya know ya could sell tickets to the shrine...one of those build it and they will come kinda things.
  11. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    I will make it a point to get some picys I can share with you all! :) * looks around nervously* Did I spell everything okay? Anybody want to volunteer to beta my replies from now on? [face_laugh] I couldn't resist!
  12. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    JadeSolo Do you have the Obi-Wan winter gear action figure as well? It was really cool (no pun intended).
    I just wish they had made the action figures as indepth as the LOTR ones. Those were eerily beautiful and incredibly detailed and larger than most action figures...

    Does anyone use their figures when writing action scenes?

  13. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    Does anyone use their figures when writing action scenes? :eek: You know, I have this big dreaded action scene I'm supposed to be writing for Lost , and you all know how much I enjoy those! :p Maybe I should try that! * course I only collect Obi-Wan figures, so Xan and Garen will both look just like Obi * :D My lone Darth Maul figure could be Sahar. hummmmmmm

  14. dianethx Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 1, 2002
    star 6
    I had to write an action scene with a double-bladed saber. You should have seen me in front of the computer with this little Darth Maul candy saber - but hey, it worked! I know other people that use their action figures for fight scenes!
  15. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    diane: [face_laugh] I remember the Obi-Wan candy lightsaber. Those were strange little candies... 8-}

    I have an Obi-Wan action figure. My brother bought the other Obi-Wans, and I stole the accompanying pictures. :D
  16. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    Only one LE ? I'm disappointed in you! :D
  17. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    Obi-Wan winter gear? Ooooooh...sadly, I do not have that. I have only training gear Obi, hailing Anakin Obi (you know, the Obi who thinks Anakin won't remember his last name), old Obi-Wan fighting Vader, young Obi-Wan Lego figure (with brown hair), speeder Obi-Wan Lego figure (with orange hair), Obi-Wan Jedi Starfighter Lego figure (also w/ orange hair), and...oh yes! The 100-piece Obi-Wan Kenobi puzzle!! [face_love] And I probably should use these figures to write action scenes, since my writing goes something along the lines of, "He slashed with his lightsaber. And then he blocked. And then he slashed again." :p Only problem is, I'm afraid to take them out of the packaging. Oh well, who cares about collecting? More fun to play with them than stare at them!

    Ewan shrine? *eyes grow big as Death Stars* They better be good pictures, OE! :D
  18. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    Whoa, Jade. That's a lot of figures.

    I have the puzzle too. :D

    It actually took me awhile to finish it...should I be worried? 8-}
  19. Phoenix_Reborn Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 4
    I thought I was the only one who had that puzzle...

    LE At least your's isn't missing pieces :p
  20. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    If it's taking you a while to finish it, instead of attempting to put the puzzle together, simply reconstruct The Three Faces of Obi-Wan :p

    And yes, it sounds like I have a whole Jedi Temple of figures, but if you put all three Lego Kenobis together, they equal one regular-sized Kenobi :p (but the Mini-Obis are just so much cuter!)
  21. LuvEwan Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    Yeah, I've seen the Lego icons, Jade. Awww. [face_blush]

    It's been pretty quiet around here....New topic soon? New challenge? :confused:
  22. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    Sorry guys! Darth Multiple Stories has me running ragged! :p

    New topic comes from Mrs. Desimir deCrion, aka JadeSolo . [face_laugh]

    Does Obi-Wan have a Darkside? And if so, how has it shown itself and how has it shaped the Jedi he is?


    I say he certainly does and it is evident several times in Phantom Menace, in my opinion. First in that Council room scene and most noticeably during his battle with Darth Maul.

    I think ten years later in Clones, he has it pretty well under control, but there may have been traces of it during his battle with Dooku. Maybe that's why he lost the battle in such a horrible manner. :p

    It will be interesting to see if it shows at all in Episode 3 considering all that should happen.

    As far as shaping him, I think it made him strong and capable of handling whatever tragedies life threw at him. I also think it may have made him much more compassionate and understanding then he may have been without having touched it.

    Interesting to see what all of you think. :)
  23. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    I shall respond to my own topic idea, even though my husband and I have plans to go pirating around the galaxy [face_love] After I give my brother-in-law his meal of pure sugar [face_devil] (hey, when did we get married? I thought I was just his lady friend. Did Khalid wipe my memories, too? :p )

    Darkside? Yup, definitely! First, in the JA books--yeah, okay, they were pretty bad at times, and Obi-Wan's character wasn't fleshed out as much as it should've been (perhaps it should be called the Jedi Master series :mad: ), but there were a couple of things that really struck me. Obi-Wan had a lot of trouble controlling his fear and anger, which was supposed to sort of be an explanation for why he hadn't been chosen as anyone's padawan yet (which is a dumb reason--I mean, everyone has a dark side). After the Melida/Daan incident, he becomes much more humble and cautious, and it seems like he's pushed his dark side down. But then there are so many times when the first emotion he feels in response to something is anger. Maybe that's just a teenager thing, but the way the books were written, it was like he'd be angry first, then control his anger, then think cautiously.

    Moving on to the PT--the Council scene and the Maul fight, of course. I'm not surprised by that, though, especially the latter. You watch someone you love get cut down, and you'll be feeling some dark side emotions, be they anger, hate, despair, etc. What I've always wondered is whether or not Obi-Wan was aware that he struck Maul down in anger. The end fight in AOTC is an interesting parallel to TPM, with Anakin rushing at Dooku in anger much like Obi-Wan rushed at Maul. Anakin is reminded of his foolishness every time he looks at his arm--he rushed into a fight not thinking rationally. But Obi-Wan killed in anger--a much worse thing for a Jedi, in my book, and more so if he didn't even realize what he did. Honestly, I think he did know--I might be wrong, but I believe there was originally a bit of dialogue right when he cleaves Maul in half. I don't remember exactly what is was, but it sure wasn't anything a clear-headed Jedi would say after slaying an enemy. And I remember thinking, "Why the hell did that not make it into the movie?!" In AOTC, Obi-Wan's the teacher--he has to set a good example for Anakin, who's as loose a cannon as they come, so perhaps that's why we don't see his darker side. Then again, having Anakin as a padawan can make anyone turn to the dark side--can't wait to see what happens in the Ep 3 showdown :p

    One way his dark side has shaped him, I believe, is that during the OT, he maybe has the best idea of what Anakin/Vader is feeling, having come near that dark path before. I've wondered if he's still angry at Vader. Maybe part of the reason he thinks Luke is their last hope is because anyone else would try to strike down Vader in anger, including himself, but Luke is the only one who would try to save him with love, a pure and light side emotion. But thinking of Luke in that way could also lead to feelings of despair--what if Luke fails? What if he dies? Worse, what if he turns? Despair is a strong emotion that can drive people to dark places, and I have no doubt that Obi-Wan felt that many times while hermiting on Tatooine.

    I think I have some thoughts comparing Luke's feelings toward the dark side with Obi-Wan's, but they're hardly coherent, so I'll spare everyone the agony. And anyway, it's pirating time with my Dashing Des! [face_love] :p
  24. obi_ew Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 14, 2002
    star 5
    I was just planning ahead! :p

    In the novelization of Menace, it says this:

    Calming himself, stilling the trembling of his heart, and banishing his anger and fear, he called upon the last of his reserves. With clarity of purpose and strength of heart, he launched himself away from the side of the pit

    Not buying it! Why you ask? Because in the next scene you get this:

    Obi-Wan did not pause to consider what it had cost him to win his victory over Darth Maul, but rushed to Qui-Gon.

    Hum.....

    Plus if you go by the Star Wars Insider, the Jedi never desecrated when they killed, which is exactly what he did. He danced with the dark! :D
  25. JadeSolo Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 20, 2002
    star 6
    You know what I think? He's got a slice-and-dice fetish! But he realized the whole hacking-in-two thing was a bit much, so he thought, well, maybe I better keep it down to de-limbing people :p I bet if R.A. Salvatore had done the TPM novelization, Obi-Wan would've done the Tango de Roxanne! (how's that for a Ewan reference?)

    Planning ahead? Haha! Is that some kind of foreshadowing? [face_mischief] (mental note: keep Jivan away from wedding cake)
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