PT Obi-Wan dismembering Anakin in RotS, Compassion?

A suggestion was made to start a new thread about Obi-Wans actions on Mustafar and esp him dismembering Anakin.

Was this a compassionate act on Obi-Wans part? Or did he do this because he wanted Anakin to suffer?

Is there some Jedi rule that FORBIDS them to end the suffering of a dying enemy, an enemy that is dying because of what the Jedi did? Even if this enemy is now helpless.

Did Obi-Wan choose to sever Anakins limbs rather than directly kill him? Or was just an accident?
If it was a choice on Obi-Wans part, was he aware of what the result of that action would be?

What would weigh more heavilly on Obi-Wans mind, the thought that Anakin died a quick death by his hands or that he gave Anakin a slow, pain-filled, horrible death?

In part some things are required to happen in RotS, Anakin has to get put in the suit and all that.

My thoughts.
Obi-Wan knew where they were and he had a moment to think about his actions before Anakin jumped.
Obi-wan made two slashing moves so I do think that he was aiming to sever Anakins limbs. Also Obi-Wan is skilled enough with the lightsaber that he could have killed Anakin direclty if he wanted to.
Dismembering someone will make it hard if not impossible for them to move, so unless they get help, they will die eventually. This death will be slow and painful. In the enviroment where they were, this death is even more assured.
So I do think Obi-Wan was aware of what the end result of his actions would be. And he had the option to end Anakins suffering but didn't. Instead he opted to talk a bit to Anakin before leaving.
By doing this, to me, Obi-wan did not show any compassion what so ever. His actions are very un-jedi to me and not how Obi-wan otherwise acts. And the only motivation that makes any sense is cruelty. That he did this because he wants Anakin to suffer, that is filled with rage and anger towards Anakin and towards himself. So he is doing this to punish Anakin and perhaps himself.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

He didn't want to kill Anakin. He even said he couldn't. It was the boy's choice to leap when Obi distinctly told him not to. Obi-Wan didn't even like being opposing to Anakin the plot and the Council basically forced it.

 

I take it you haven't read the ROTS novelization, Samuel Vimes? It spells out exactly what Obi-Wan's motivations were in that scene. No room for interpretation.

 

Just my opinions:

No, Obi-Wan was doing what needed to be done -- stopping Anakin.

No, he was exhausted and heartbroken and in pain. I don't think he wanted Anakin to suffer. I just don't think he could take any more death.

It's never explicitly stated, but is it suggested. Anakin states that it was wrong to kill Dooku because he was an unarmed prisoner and Anakin notes to Windu that, for similar reasons, killing Palpatine would be against the Jedi Code. Dooku's wounds were more "survivable" than Anakin's though.

I think it was a manifestation of Obi-Wan's conflict. Obi-Wan doesn't want to kill Anakin -- he says flat-out that he can't do it -- but he has to stop him, he's the only one who can. I think that moment where he warns Anakin not to jump shows the conflict within Obi-Wan and how he's trying to have it both ways. I think he reacted somewhat instinctively in that he was trying to do his duty but wasn't able to kill Anakin outright when faced with the opportunity.

I think he chose not to think about it. His focus was mainly to disable Anakin, but I think the residual of his love for him warred with that impulse, leading him to maim rather than kill.

At that point, I think Obi-Wan just wanted it to be over. I think part of him was too weak and emotionally exhausted by everything that had happened and he couldn't bear to kill Anakin and stare at his lifeless corpse. More painful for Anakin? Yes. But someone mentioned an example of a beloved pet turning rabid. I can see a loving owner doing something similar as Obi-Wan -- having to take it out, administering a fatal wound (but one that is not instantaneous), and then being unable to outright kill their pet despite its suffering due to the emotional pain it would entail for the owner.

I understand Obi-Wan's choice. I think it makes sense given the context and what we have previously seen of him.

I don't really see the "two slashing moves" -- it looked much more like a wide arc to me. A continuous swing. It's tough to tell.

The only motivation that makes sense to you. But you, I presume, have never been placed in Obi-Wan's situation. So I doubt you would know whether or not it is in actually the only motivation that makes sense. I can tell you that I don't know what I would do if faced with the "rabid dog" scenario presented earlier. If I injured and disabled my dog, would I be able to kill her to end her suffering? I don't know. Honestly, I think it could go either way. And yes, in one case, she would suffer more, but I think a lot of people (whether they will admit it or not) will allow their loved ones to suffer rather than put themselves through more pain. And given the tremendous trauma that Obi-Wan has experienced, I can't fault him for that and I think it's rather harsh to be so judgmental after all he's gone through.

timmoishere

I tend to discount the ROTS novelization. For one, it's just plainly wrong or contradictory on many points when compared to the film. For another, the scenes differ in the book and movie. In the book, Palpatine is arriving as Obi-Wan stares down at Anakin. In the film, it's clear that Obi-Wan is long gone by the time the Emperor arrives.

 

There is always interpretation. That is part of the issue of why views vary so. I believe I did a looog time ago but I remember nothing. My views are informed only by the film.

 

True, it's always a matter of interpretation. I try to make sure I'm clear that what I'm saying is only my opinion for that reason. The issues I have with the ROTS novel are manifold: it's actually my least favorite of the novelizations for several reasons (although ESB's is the most boring, in my opinion -- so unlike the film). But Stover blatantly contradicts several things that Lucas and the films say so I just find it hard to go with the novel. The characterizations especially are an issue I have (particularly for Anakin, Padmé, and Obi-Wan) so I much prefer the film.

The film, as far as I can tell, doesn't present Obi-Wan as reveling in Anakin's pain but rather he seems grieved and resigned. I don't detect any malice or cruelty from him. Good people can do unkind things when they are pushed to the limit.

 

I think deep down Obi-Wan felt that Anakin Skywalker did not deserve to die that way. But Darth Vader did.

 

@PiettsHat I absolutely hear you on starting/indicating it is a matter of personal and individual views but it's a bit sad we must do that or be called out. For the record, I agree regarding how Ewan did Obi-Wan in the scenes in the film. He looks defeated, resigned, and shattered. There is no glee or joy or vengeance in him. You practically see his face fall and his eyes dull.

 

It's still G-canon, which means it can't be discounted except for the specific parts where the film says one thing and the novel another.

 

I acknowledge that. Given that I find the characters behave out-of-character (and blatantly so in some cases) though, I discount the novelization from my personal canon. You're free to include it if you like, though, it's just as legitimate an interpretation as any.

But the book does place a heavy emphasis on Palpatine's arrival which clearly isn't a factor in the film. And given how differently the characters behave, I have a hard time reconciling them as the same from the film to the book.

I just disagreed with your stance that there was "no room for interpretation."

 

Almost two years ago, there was a thread in the temp forum that asked the question: Should Obi-Wan have mercy killed Anakin?
This is what I had to say then:

"Obi-Wan should have killed him, but he couldn't bring himself to do it. Some part of him felt that Anakin deserved to suffer, but he also hated himself for using that as an excuse. To block out all the grief that this brought him, he decided that Anakin was already dead. Darth Vader was all that remained and his "brother" was nowhere to be seen.
He's not being a Jedi at all in this scene and that makes it all the more powerful."

I also wrote:

"There's a storm of emotions within him. He's not in the right state of mind to think things through. All he's trying to do is defeat Anakin without killing him. That's why he cuts his limbs off. Deep down, he knows that he's going to have to kill him, but the thought of delivering the final blow is too much for him. I myself had trouble mercy killing a snail this morning after accidentally breaking its shell - I can only imagine the kind of determination it would take to kill off a friend!
Obi-Wan was still guilty of injuring Anakin of course. He even deliberately left him to burn, believing that he would die. All for the sake of not having to deliver the killing blow. The shame must have been unbearable - which is why he chose to view Anakin as dead already when he lay there on the river bank."

I still stand by those words.





Shame is heavy
/LM

 

Honestly, why do we quibble about cannon levels? Each person accepts and rejects what they choose.

 

I remember making a similar thread to this on the temp boards entitled: Obi-Wan Mercy killing?

I asked for opinions whether it would have been better for Obi-Wan to put Anakin out of his misery instead of leaving him there on the embankment,

there were some interesting responses

Edit: oh Lars_Muul remembers the thread

 

It was Vader who talked about being made to destroy Kenobi, so for me, it was understood that their fight was to the death...

No. Compassion in the midst of light saber combat is defined in Star Wars by Luke Skywalker.

No. He wanted to give his former apprentice a chance to admit his wrongdoings before Mustafar claimed his life.
Darth Vader's hatred when faced with certain death is what allowed Kenobi to turn his back and walk away.

Perhaps. The films only give us Anakin's point of view, that killing an unarmed prisoner is not the Jedi way.
I like to think that's because the Jedi understand what murder is.

Killing Vader wouldn't allow him to admit being wrong.

Obviously not.... no way he could foresee that Vader's hatred could sustain him.
(Maul hadn't been resurrected yet.)

If he killed Vader, there is no turning back...
by dismembering him, Kenobi left him a small window to acknowledge his mistakes and ask for forgiveness.

The Jedi don't serve as Judges and Executioners, what Anakin did to Count Dooku was murder. Kenobi ended the threat presented by Darth Vader and when the Sith Lord declared his utter-hatred, Obi-Wan left him there to his own resolve.

Anakin was gone, a stranger was lying there and Kenobi owed Darth Vader nothing...


but, there was a injured woman with an unborn child to think about.

 

I don't think obi won wanted Anakin to die or to suffer because he loved him like a brother but he did say at the start of the fight "I will Do What I must"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

IMO, neither.

Not that I know of, but I think it’s possible that mercy-killing was not acceptable in the Jedi Order. Mercy-killing, or euthanasia, is an ethical dilemma which has strong arguments on both sides and contains many different aspects, and it’s impossible to know which arguments will be the deciding factor when a stand has to be made.

On one side is the desire to end suffering and on the other is the resistance against killing – what would be the “right” course of action very much depends on the situation, I think. In Anakin’s case, would it really be morally acceptable to kill him? He is suffering, his injuries are deadly, but he does not ask for death; so if Obi-Wan ended his life he would take away Anakin’s choice which would be a violation of the right to life.

As I’ve argued in other threads, Obi-Wan’s actions were not guided by rationality, but by two different emotional responses:

1) Acquired reflexes. His senses register a dangerous and urgent situation, and without thinking and without conscious thought he acts. His action is instinctive, but also partially acquired as it is dependent on the body’s earlier experiences which have created different reflexes.

2) Reflexive emotions and instinctive evaluations. He is facing a complicated dilemma: he has to stop a great threat but that threat also happens to be a person he cares for deeply - and for many years had been responsible for. In an ideal situation, his action would be based on him having reviewed, seen through and calculated all possible scenarios and their potential impacts and/or principles, and then select the best using his common sense. That, however, would take a long time – far more than Obi-Wan has in that situation – and instead his action is based on reflexive emotions and instinctive evaluations/feelings, which involve an automatic “filtration” of acceptable and unacceptable actions based on earlier experiences that resulted in reward or punishment (joy, pain etc.), and which kicks in long before rational consciousness. For 13 years his feelings have dictated that he should protect Anakin, and in that specific situation it was therefore impossible for him to deliver a killing blow.

I think Obi-Wan knew that one of them would come to harm once their lightsabers were drawn. As I said above, I do not think cutting off three of Anakin’s limbs was a conscious decision, and I don’t think he could have known that cutting off Anakin’s limbs at the time would cause him to slide down and catch fire. I do not think he truly realised the consequences of him leaving Anakin behind until he was sitting in the cockpit of Padmé’s ship and had time to compose himself and to process/review everything that had just happened.

I think it’s irrelevant, because I don’t think he was in a state of mind to make a rational decision at that point.

I think you disregard the fact that Obi-Wan is a human being (and one that in a very short time has experienced things that would break most people) and not a machine.

I responded to your arguments here.

 

Personally, I really don't think Obi's actions can be defended. And the arguments of either him "not being able to kill Anakin, emotionally" or the Jedi Order forbidding it don't stand up. It's clear by leaving Anakin to burn to death - Obi is very consciously choosing to kill Anakin (as it is clear that he will die without help). And even if the Jedi Order somehow instructed Jedi against euthanasia (or whatever), Obi is by not helping Anakin, ensuring that he is euthanized - just in a totally unnecessarily horrible manner.

But Obi fails even further because Anakin is actually saved and goes on wreak havoc on the galaxy for decades.. Again Obi's fault.

It really makes for an interesting and flawed character and explains his future actions. Growing up with the OT, Obi was the wise caring master, but also a cynically manipulative person. What happens in ROTS gave him all the more depth and motivation to lie and manipulate history in order to motivate Luke. ROTS really explained to me why Obi was kinda sleazy in the OT. He sat in a hut for 20 years mulling over where he went wrong - no wonder he was so eager to send Luke off on suicidal adventure - if for no other reason but to clear his own conscious.

 

I don't know about the actual swing. Maybe he missed a killing blow, or maybe he purposely meant to main rather than kill Anakin. I don't believe he acted out of a desire to cause Anakin suffering, though. As for leaving him, I don't believe it was due to the Jedi Code or wanting him to burn. I think Kenobi just wanted to get away from there; he clearly was so upset that he couldn't stand to be there another second.

And I also discount the novelization's idea of Palpatine arriving at that second. Unless Coruscant is in the same star system as Mustafar, no way does he get there that fast.

 

How long did it take Anakin to travel to Mustafar, or Padme? Palpatine's trip was consistent with the first two.

 

Chalk it up to rushed filmmaking. Except, instead of the charm of Harrison Ford shooting the guy with the sword...well...it just falls flat. It's like, superbad.

That part was like Monty Python.

 

Rushed filmaking? He had thirty years to envision Vader's injuries... and for those that paid close attention, or not, Kenobi destroyed one of Dooku's battle droids on the stairs with the same cut that he would later use on Vader.

 

If we go by the novelization, Palpatine sensed that Anakin was in trouble, left the Senate chamber, went to a nearby landing platform, boarded his shuttle, left Coruscant, jumped to hyperspace, left hyperspace, and pulled into range of Mustafar so Kenobi could see him in the space of about 30 minutes.

I don't buy that at all. I'll go by the movie version, where it's unclear how long it took but it certainly took longer than what Stover wrote.

 

In the movie Palpatine says "I sense Lord Vader is in danger" and he arrives on Mustafar in time to help Anakin as Anakin finishes pulling himself up from beside the lava river. What we see onscreen before that, if I remember rightly, was Yoda's fight intercut with Obi-Wan's.

One could assume that Palpatine is exerting foresight- and that what we see onscreen is not accurate- the fight with Yoda is not simultaneous with Obi-Wan fighting Anakin, but takes place some time before.

With Palpatine racing for Mustafar in the hope of getting there before Obi-Wan does- but too late.

However- that's a big assumption to make.

 

Not that it's relevant but actually, it isn't (except for specific parts that had the direct involvement of Lucas, if they even exist).

 

He did exactly what he was supposed to do (short of cutting his head off at the edge of the lava stream). Anakin was pure Vader at that point. He murdered fellow Jedi (including the annoying children), choked preggo Padme and was trying to kill Obi-Wan every second of that fight. What was he supposed to do? There was no more reasoning with this psychopath.