Obi-Wan has issues...

It wouldn't matter who trained Anakin, as long as Palpatine is able to talk to him, that's all it will take to convert him. Remove Palpatine and he would've turned out exactly like Obi-wan and Luke did.

 

i do not agree with that, i just do not know how it would turn out. Lucas has shown in these movies that Anakin is not inherently evil, actually the opposite, by birth. Kenobi is a good jedi and puts the jedi and the code or whatever above everything and always would. Qui-Gon did not do that, and the comment in the TPM by Kenobi saying to Jinn he should do it their way and he would be on the council, and Jinn says he will do what he must. Qui-Gon believed Anakin, the chosen one, as greater than some code and that he would bring balance, Kenobi does not think that way.

 

Luke turned out okay without being trained from birth. He had his family, his friends and his mentors helping to shape his destiny. Anakin had his mother for nine years, Qui-gon for a few days, Obi-wan for 13 years, Padme for three years and Palpatine for 13 years. Anakin was being pulled in my different directions, which didn't help him at all. Combine that with his inability to let go of his attachments and accept change, lead to his thirst for power and control. Luke was raised differently, which is why Palpatine could tempt him, but never convert him.

 

It will be revealed in ROTS that Obi-Wan has issues.

I am sure of it.

 

I am almost always either amazed or entertained by your insights Dr. Funk. I'm curious, what issues will Master Obi-Wan have?

 

[image=http://www.picpop.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10002/noob9.jpg]



I just said it to make fun of people who always say something and follow it up with "I'm sure of it", as though that in itself is proof enough for us to all go "oh, well if you're sure of it..."

 

The only thing Obi-Wan ever did wrong was promise to train Anakin because of Qui-Gon's dieing wish. Obi-Wan should only have made sure Anakin received traning and have a Council member train him.

-Touche'. I don't feel that Obi was properly prepared to train ANYONE -much less the "Chosen One". It's not so much as "arrogance" as it is miscalculation and irresponsibility on the part of Obi-wan and the Jedi Council.

Poor judgement.

 

of course obi-wan has issues, he's one of the very few fully fleshed out characters in the prequals.

if yoda's talk of arrogance wasn't directed at him who was it directed at? the wall?

obi-wan strikes me as insecure on some levels, the classic 'do it by the book overachiever'.

but if he has issues, then anakin just needs therapy, probably long inpatient style.

there are no perfect people, and in good movies no perfect characters, he fits this mold perfectly.

you can't take his faults and say that because he was this this happened, obi-wan is human, and as such can only do the best that he can do.

ultimately that costs everyone, but is he to blame for being innadequate? no, for being blind though he probalby is to blame, and his arrogance does blind him.

i think that's why he seems such a broading broken and defeated character in the OT, especialy post ep4.

the tone of the ghost obi-wan's talk with luke in rotj seems just full of regret and self blame to me

 

Most definitely, this particular newbie has TONS to learn...

Sorry, I usually try and control myself; however, sometimes I go ballistic when people dis my precious, practically perfect Obi-Wan.

I think I need to find an "Are there others who are as obsess...er, ummm focused about Obi-Wan as I am?" thread. Later.

 

if that's directed at my comment then you missunderstand me, that's not disrespect you read but respect.

i consider obi-wan's character far superior to most in the prequals.

i don't know why they bothered casting qui-gon, mace, shmi, or anyone else other than obi jar jar anakin and padme in ep 1.

the rest of the characters were so shallow and 2 dimentional they could have used 'cardboard cutouts'.

it is his flaws that lead obi-wan to be the absolute model of a jedi knight, it is those same traits that make it very difficult for him to train anakin, and everyone pays for it.

i just don't put characters on a pedistal, they are much more interesting on the ground in action.

if it wasn't directed at me ignore my last.

 

Malikail - No hard feelings on my part. I don't know if you were referring to me or not, but I'd like to go through some of what you said.

of course obi-wan has issues, he's one of the very few fully fleshed out characters in the prequals.

I'll not argue with you on this point, but he kind of has to be considering his importance in the OT.

if yoda's talk of arrogance wasn't directed at him who was it directed at? the wall?

Actually, I think Yoda was talking about the entire Jedi order in this exchange. Of course, his remark looked like it sailed right over the heads of both of his companions.

obi-wan strikes me as insecure on some levels, the classic 'do it by the book overachiever'.

He didn't seem very insecure to me by the time of AoTC, but I'll agree that he's a very by-the-book kind of guy.

you can't take his faults and say that because he was this this happened, obi-wan is human, and as such can only do the best that he can do. ultimately that costs everyone, but is he to blame for being innadequate? no, for being blind though he probalby is to blame, and his arrogance does blind him.

I'm not quite sure what you're saying here. Ultimately, Obi-Wan is only human and he is , indeed, doing the best that he can do in training psycho Ani. If we're assigning blame and arrogance, surely the Jedi Council members need to own up to their part in this fiasco. Does Obi-Wan's own arrogance blind him to Anakin's path to the Dark Side? Maybe, but I sincerely think that Obi-Wan is not so much arrogant as he is complacent -- he (Obi-Wan) was trained in this manner as were thousands of other Jedi before him, why not continue in the same manner? I will always be of the opinion that the ultimate "blame" for Anakin's downfall has to be Anakin himself. I'm just a personal responsibility kind of gal, ya know?

i think that's why he seems such a broading broken and defeated character in the OT, especialy post ep4. the tone of the ghost obi-wan's talk with luke in rotj seems just full of regret and self blame to me

Here's where you and I differ. I don't believe Obi-Wan is brooding, broken or defeated in the OT. I believe that he has been patiently waiting for the magic moment (Luke coming to him) to happen and he is very skillful in pulling Luke into the fray. Even the seemingly defeated inflection Obi-Wan uses in "Then the Emperor has already won" line can be construed as a sneaky way of getting Luke to do exactly what needs to be done, i.e. confront Vader. JMO.

Again, no hard feelings. Most of the time, I love the crazy back-and-forth in here.

 

we do for the most part agree, i realy am struck by the tone alec guiness took to deliver those lines in rotj but then again maybe i'm reading too much into it.

it could have just been the style he chose without it meaning anything.

and yes he had to be well developed, but the lack of development of everyone around him was to me glaring by compairison.

 

I still wish this thread to be directed towrds the events of ROTS, but I couldn't resist one final say-so concerning Ben's approach towards the Larrs [in ep IV]:
Consider that the events in ANH are ambiguous on this issue. The story actually seems to materialize itself in just the exact way, that we can't point the finger at Ben. There is just not enough information, or much of a chance for Ben to prove any indifference.
But consider as well, how close Ben got to having an opinion, about what we know concerning stormtroopers eliminating the Larrs household. The events in ANH were choreographed to as not to openly point a finger at Ben Kenobi, but if this is the case, these points to rely on Ben's moral incorruptitude either. Ben's actions, as negligable as they are, can still fit the same personally described profile, and not disrupt movie contuinity, at all, to a T. Ben Kenobi's indifference is defintely NOT singled out and disproved. We will see the OT in a new light, is this it?


Also, to people who only took my examples and generalized them:
Obi-Wan obviously had issues when Qui-Gonn chose Anakin over him. [facial expression]
Later when Anakin is chosen for his own special mission Obi-Wan has an issue, again [facial expression]. Anakin is now a Jedi, just like him, mission and everything, an admittedly lush mission with a beautiful counterpart who might not tempt Obi-Wan, but who would still be a beautiful person to spend time with.

Which bridges me to my other theory. That Anakin is The Chosen One, but not chosen by the Jedi. This culminates in Obi-Wan and loses severity through people who knew Anakin the least (or only vicariously.) [at the other end of the arc eventually he is chosen by a Jedi, Luke Skywalker, who learns to believe in him.]

 

Obi-Wan obviously had issues when Qui-Gonn chose Anakin over him. [facial expression]

Maybe there was a little jealousy going on, but that issue was resolved by the time they hopped on the Naboo Express, right? Obi-Wan apologizes to his master for his impertinence before they board. Certainly this whole issue has been resolved before the battle when Qui-Gon tells Obi-Wan that he will be a great Jedi.

Later when Anakin is chosen for his own special mission Obi-Wan has an issue, again [facial expression]. Anakin is now a Jedi, just like him, mission and everything, an admittedly lush mission with a beautiful counterpart who might not tempt Obi-Wan, but who would still be a beautiful person to spend time with.

Ummm, Anakin is no such thing. He's still a Padawan and Obi-Wan is rightly concerned about his apprentice's arrogance. Hell, even Padme puts him in his place during the discussion of her personal security on Naboo (paraphrasing: "He's not a Jedi. He's still a Padawan Learner.")

Or as I like to say: "Obi-Wan Rulz. Anakin drools."

 

"Also, to people who only took my examples and generalized them:
Obi-Wan obviously had issues when Qui-Gonn chose Anakin over him. [facial expression]"

Obi-Wan had every right to have issues with Qui-Gon over what he did there. Qui-Gon was going dump Obi-Wan for Anakin just like that and his hasty excuse in order to try and ensure that it happened had turned out to be hypocritical when afterword he then says Obi-Wan still has much to learn. What Qui-Gon did was rude and hurtfull to Obi-Wan not to mention it goes a long way in making Obi-Wan's job instructing Anakin that much more difficult because this is where Anakin gets the idea that he's better than Obi-Wan. After all he hears that he might be the chosen one and Obi-Wan's own Master was going to ditch him for Anakin.

"Later when Anakin is chosen for his own special mission Obi-Wan has an issue, again [facial expression]. Anakin is now a Jedi, just like him, mission and everything, an admittedly lush mission with a beautiful counterpart who might not tempt Obi-Wan, but who would still be a beautiful person to spend time with"

Yeah Obi-Wan has issues with Anakin being given an assignment on his own because he's not ready for it and Anakin later proves this point. This doesn't reflect poorly on Obi-Wan's judgement, it reflects poorly on Yoda's, Mace's, and the rest of the Jedi Council's decision because they clearly think they know Anakin's readiness better than his own Master. They were wrong.

 

This doesn't reflect poorly on Obi-Wan's judgement, it reflects poorly on Yoda's, Mace's, and the rest of the Jedi Council's decision because they clearly think they know Anakin's readiness better than his own Master.

Okay... YODA's seen this from the BEGINNING.

"but agree with you taking this boy as you padawan learner I do not!" (insert stamping of stick on the floor like a judges hammer.)

yoda looked pretty pissed off in this scene... THEN he takes a deep breath and sighs in defeat...

"Agree with you the council does"

So yeah... No fault lies with Yoda on this because the council decided and Yoda was clearly one of the members (if not the ONLY member who was conviced he was dangerous!)


It's MACE! It's all his fault! He's on a power grab himself!!! MWA HA HA AH AH

Um no. I'm just joking.

however It was Yoda who told Obi-Wan that Anakin would be the one to protect Amidala.

Impossible to see...

Nothing more to add other than there's nothing better than a hard drinking Jedi... (Imagines NRL's REG REAGAN in Jedi Garb... Not hard since he has the same hairdresser as AOTC Obi-Wan)

Next thing you know Obi'll be slurring the words to "Am I ever gonna see the biff again" while chugging some KB

 

"Okay... YODA's seen this from the BEGINNING.

"but agree with you taking this boy as you padawan learner I do not!" (insert stamping of stick on the floor like a judges hammer.)

yoda looked pretty pissed off in this scene... THEN he takes a deep breath and sighs in defeat...

"Agree with you the council does"

So yeah... No fault lies with Yoda on this because the council decided and Yoda was clearly one of the members (if not the ONLY member who was conviced he was dangerous!)"

That was ten years ago. Watch the scene again and listen to what Yoda says and how he says it.

"The Council is confident in its decision Obi-Wan" Yoda speaks as though he agrees the the decision this time around.

 

Well, the biggest issue Obi-Wan has is....instead of keeping Luke and Raising him up as a Jedi and training him his whole life...he gives him to a farmer.......

 

Oh Yeah! I'd forgotten that part Juan! Oh well that blows my theory outda window!

Agent Cross raises a good point! I mean Obi screws up one Skywalker.. maybe he's thinking it best to give Luke to Owen as he doesn't want to screw up a second time...

Is he scared?

 

light_sabe_r:
I would say that Ben Kenobi leaves Luke Skywalker on Tantooine to further "screw up" Anakin's life.

I would agree, however, that dropping Luke on Tantooine must have been a very well thought out plan on the part of Yoda and Obi-Wan. I believe that they do understand that trying to 'lead' a Skywalker is not for the best. Luke was allowed to mature on his own, unlike Anakin, and without any interference [even from Yoda, who obviously thought Luke should stay on Dagobah until his training was complete, but rescued Luke's X-wing fighter anyway, leaving all choices up to Luke].

However, it is also very clear that Ben manipulated Luke in the OT, with lies, and by keeping him from his true father. Morally correct, perhaps, but ethically...

To me it is no surprise that the best form for Luke's teachers to take is the one they manifest themselves into after their so-called deaths. Intereference is at the most minimum and advice is at a new all-time high.

I believe that only when Yoda and Ben can step away from their roles as a Jedi, can Anakin truly function. The Jedi really should :

1 [Help] Take care of Anakin's personal problems and delicate family situation

2 Look to Anakin for spiritual guidance/ knowledge of the Will of the Force

3 Let Anakin be the Jedi.

Only Qui-Gonn, Shmi, and Luke were/are prepared for such an event.

Also, is it truly accidental that Anakin only returns when both of these Jedi [Ben and Yoda] cease to exist, or have influence?

 

The following discourse is from a known Obi-lover, so caveat emptor :

I would say that Ben Kenobi leaves Luke Skywalker on Tantooine to further "screw up" Anakin's life.

I would say that Obi-Wan leaves Luke Skywalker on Tatooine in order to protect him from his rather overzealous father.

However, it is also very clear that Ben manipulated Luke in the OT, with lies, and by keeping him from his true father. Morally correct, perhaps, but ethically...

"Manipulated" is such an ugly word...I would use "guided". But let's not quibble about semantics. Perhaps it all depends upon "...a certain point of view."

To me it is no surprise that the best form for Luke's teachers to take is the one they manifest themselves into after their so-called deaths. Intereference is at the most minimum and advice is at a new all-time high.

Ummm...aren't they interfering by offering advice? I don't mean to be obtuse, but isn't this the same thing? Whether they're coporeal or ethereal they are still intervening in Luke's life.

I believe that only when Yoda and Ben can step away from their roles as a Jedi, can Anakin truly function. The Jedi really should :

1 [Help] Take care of Anakin's personal problems and delicate family situation

Not their problem, IMO. These are Ani's problems, pure and simple. It is his inability to accept change that leads to his spectacular downfall.

2 Look to Anakin for spiritual guidance/ knowledge of the Will of the Force

Huh???!!?? Look to a weak-willed, immature, impetuous brat for spiritual guidance/knowledge of the Will of The Force? You're kidding, right? Just because he's The Chosen One (reg. U.S. Pat. Off.) doesn't give him any special insight or oneness with The Force. It seems to me that Ani has the least insight of any Force-sensitive being ever.

3 Let Anakin be the Jedi.

Only Qui-Gonn, Shmi, and Luke were/are prepared for such an event.

Yeah, and look where it got the first two. He is/was a Jedi and look what's gonna happen almost immediately after. Jedi to Sith Lord in a Naboo minute.

Also, is it truly accidental that Anakin only returns when both of these Jedi [Ben and Yoda] cease to exist, or have influence?

As far as I understand the concept, the two Jedi have only ceased to exist physically . Anakin returns because his son redeems him. Luke redeems him because Obi-Wan and Yoda have influenced him to do so. I am part of the crowd that believes that Yoda and Obi-Wan never meant for Luke to defeat DV, just reform him if possible.

 

lvk-1978:
the title of this thread is "does Obi Wan have issues" maybe it should be called lvk_1978 has issues...
just kidding, but you do, don't you?

Anakin's family, Anakin's problem...How passive is that? and I couldn't agree with you more. You said what I've been saying. Anakin should forget this?
Anakin did not start his life as a Jedi at the age of 2 or whatever. This could have been taken into consideration...
read what YOU wrote: The Jedi have ceased to exist physically- this answers how they did not interfere with Luke's life, which I was saying was by choice, not just because they weren't there, but what you said fits, not the way you meant, I'm sure.
What motives you may have for denying Anakin's birthright, I cannot guess, but include yourself with those Jedi who see Anakin as not the Jedi that they are, who make his plans for him, I guess because he is too bratty or something.
I am part of the lonely self who believes that Luke tried to the very end to redeem a Darth Vader, but realized that he couldn't and gave up, and tried to die with the Sith in the Death Star.

Luke did turn out different.

Anankin arises in ROTJ, he is the Chosen One, bratty or not.

Ben nor Yoda can step away from their roles as Jedi, even AFTER they die.

 

lvk-1978:
the title of this thread is "does Obi Wan have issues" maybe it should be called lvk_1978 has issues...
just kidding, but you do, don't you?

I sure as heck do. I have issues with anyone trying to pass off Anakin's problems onto other characters.
Remember that scene in ANH where Luke and Leia are talking about Han? How Luke is all upset 'cause Han isn't staying with the Rebellion. Leia says it all for me: "He's got to choose his own path." People are presented with all sorts of situations, obstacles, etc., but I firmly believe that each individual must make up his/her/its own mind on how to handle life. I really, really dislike all this "It's all Obi-Wan's/Mace's/Yoda's/The Jedi Council's fault that Anakin turned to the Dark Side." As we used to say in The X-Files newsgroup: "Waah, waah. My ***** hurts!"

Anakin's family, Anakin's problem...How passive is that? and I couldn't agree with you more. You said what I've been saying. Anakin should forget this?
Anakin did not start his life as a Jedi at the age of 2 or whatever. This could have been taken into consideration...

I never said he should forget his problems -- he has to get over/past them. I'm saying that by age 12/13 Anakin knows exactly what he's gotten himself into. And I'm thinking that none of these beings go back to their planet of origin for the homecoming game. As far as I can tell, becoming a Jedi takes the most serious commitment. They're galactic peacekeepers who must be ready to go at a moment's notice wherever the Council sends them. Most importantly, nobody seems to get preferential treatment. Haven't most of the Chosen Ones throughout history/fiction suffered the same deprivations as their comrades? And if, indeed, Anakin is the Chosen One (which he pretty much is), shouldn't he, more than anyone else, be able to rise above both the mundane and extraordinary circumstances of his life?

read what YOU wrote: The Jedi have ceased to exist physically- this answers how they did not interfere with Luke's life, which I was saying was by choice, not just because they weren't there, but what you said fits, not the way you meant, I'm sure.

I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying here. The only thing I meant to say was that even though both Yoda and Obi-Wan were ethereal by the end of RotJ they continued to influence Luke's thought processes and actions.

What motives you may have for denying Anakin's birthright, I cannot guess, but include yourself with those Jedi who see Anakin as not the Jedi that they are, who make his plans for him, I guess because he is too bratty or something.

Hey, the only one who denies Anakin's birthright is Anakin himself. He's the one who walks down the path of fear, terror and self-loathing. Luckily, he had a great kid who believed in him.

I am part of the lonely self who believes that Luke tried to the very end to redeem a Darth Vader, but realized that he couldn't and gave up, and tried to die with the Sith in the Death Star.

Oh, okay. Personally, I don't think that's what GL had in mind, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Luke did turn out different.

Yes, he did. Thank the Force.

Anankin arises in ROTJ, he is the Chosen One, bratty or not.

So says The Flanneled One. I guess he does redeem himself, but IMO, he'll never, ever atone for all the harm he's done.

Ben nor Yoda can step away from their roles as Jedi, even AFTER they die.

Again, I'm not exactly certain what you mean here. If you're saying that neither of them can step away from their roles as Jedi, then I would agree.

 

Why would they step away from their Jedi roles? If anyone noticed Anakin becomes a Jedi again at the end--so obviously a Jedi is the thing to be and Yoda and Obi-Wan have managed to hold the course despite the betrayal and destruction of their entire culture(and the Jedi are a culture as well as a faith) in Obi-Wan's case by someone he was probably closer to on a personal level than anyone other than Qui-Gon. Yet despite all that he didn't turn to the dark side. The fact is what Anakin does to Obi-Wan and the Jedi is far, far, far worse than anything that ever happened to him.

Yes his mother died a terrible death. But he isn't the only person to have had a loved suffer a terrible death--it's not even remotely, closely an excuse for what he does. Other than that, Anakin had the sort of life alot of people would dream of having--rescued from slavery, he was getting the best education, he had access to the greatest technology and training and more than that it was a life that HE chose to have, him and his mother. It wasn't an easy life, in that he was held to a high standard, but certainly no higher than any other Jedi trainee. In TPM Obi-Wan was held to just as high, if not higher, a standard.

 

If you remember, in TPM, it was Anakin's good nature and intellectual savvy that came up with the plan to leave Tantooine. Qui-Gonn chose to follow Anakin, and had so much faith in young Skywalker's plan that he even initiated his own side bet. This is the kind of humility and trust that Anakin has been denied since his arrival before the Jedi Council.
In AOTC, when Mace says "if Anakin is the Chosen One, then only he can bring balance to the Force." After 10 years amongst the Jedi, perhaps Mace should have said "Since Anakin is the Chosen One, only he is bringing balance to the Force." Or even better, an excited Obi-Wan could have reported to the Council that the Chosen One had raced to Kamino to take care of this bounty hunter.
We get a Chosen One, but somehow the Jedi do not receive this gift. They are already all the Jedi they need.
The Jedi are not willing to fit the Chosen One into their ideals of what a Jedi should be. Tradition used to be the answer, but now the Chosen One is right before their eyes, but they cannot give away/up what they have been taught and what they think they know.
I am not saying it is someone else's fault Anakin turns to the Dark Side, but most assuredly he did not have any sort of Chosen One status, amongst his peers especially.
First the Jedi thought they could contain any sort of things Anakin might be or might turn into, they thought they could control him and they thought they could handle him. Later, what they really come to terms with, inside themselves, is learning how to fight him.
No more issues.
Also a fall to the Dark Side on Anakin's part seems like a real big "I told you so;" looks like passivity to me, but it is par for the course for big-time Jedis.