Obi-Wan in Ep. III: questions that need answers

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Rilina, May 26, 2002.

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  1. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    (Admins--please delete if this is redundant. I feel like there must be a thread on this subject, but I couldn't find one in the first 10 pages.)

    How is GL going to connect Obi-Wan from the end of Ep. II to old Ben from ANH?

    During Ben and Luke's first meeting, there are a few comments about and by Obi-Wan that need explaining. Hopefully some of this will be addressed in Ep. III. Of course, anything that Ben says in this first conversation is a little suspect. But let's assume that everything that he says is true from a certain point of view--in other words, that he wasn't making things up from scratch in this conversation.

    So, here goes:

    1) "I haven't gone by Obi-Wan since, oh, before you were born." Huh? Will we see him using the name Ben before the birth of the twins (which will presumably be shown in Ep. III)?

    2) The whole "General Kenobi" business. There's already a thread on this, but it's worth throwing into the mix here as well.
    See General Kenobi and Bail Organa

    3) Obi-Wan and Owen Lars: In ANH, Owen obviously knows and dislikes Obi-Wan. Will we see their meeting and the origin of Owen's hostility in Ep. III? On a related note, will there be any explanation of: "He feared you might follow old Obi-Wan on some damned-fool idealistic crusade like your father did." What crusade would that be?

    So, any opinions or theories about Obi-Wan's story arc in Ep. III? For argument's sake, let's assume that GL doesn't decide to throw continuity out the window.


  2. KaaShamau Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 15, 2000
    star 4
    Could the crusade be the Geonosis rescue? I hope not, but it does seem like EpIII has a lot of ground to cover here.
  3. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    My personal theory is that the crusade is some military action in the clone wars that Kenobi is leading--hence the word "follow" and the title "General."

    The major problem with this theory is: Why would Owen be involved at all in Anakin's decision process? We can hardly expect Anakin to check in with Owen before he goes rushing off to weird corners of the galaxy.
  4. lavjoricso Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 25, 2001
    star 4
    Perhaps Anakin and his bride spend some time on Tatooine with Owen and Beru.I believe that Anakin won't be a Jedi in Episode 3,and i think that General Kenobi will come looking for Anakin to ask him for help in the Clone Wars.A battle that he and the Jedi carn't win which could also be called a 'damn fool idealistic crusade'.

    Owen might want Anakin to stay with him and his wife away from the civil war in the republic.Anakin out of love and respect for his Father figure,might follow General Kenobi back into the War,which Owen doesn't agree with.Owen thinks that Anakin should have stayed on Tatooine and "not gotten involved".

    I don't think that the cast and crew will return to Tunisia,but they can shoot alot of the Tatooine stuff on sound stages,so i believe there is every chance that George will tie in all of old Bens ANH past reflections !!!

  5. YodaJeff Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2001
    star 7
    1) "I haven't gone by Obi-Wan since, oh, before you were born." Huh? Will we see him using the name Ben before the birth of the twins (which will presumably be shown in Ep. III)?
    I think that Obi-Wan will start to go by Ben Kenobi when he first goes to Tatooine to deliver Luke to the Lars family. It might not be "before" Luke was born, but at approximately the same time.

    2) The whole "General Kenobi" business. There's already a thread on this, but it's worth throwing into the mix here as well.
    Bail Organa will have a larger role in Episode 3, and as a senator he probably will have a role in the Clone War. I think that most of the remaining Jedi will become generals to help lead the troops into battle.

    3) Obi-Wan and Owen Lars: In ANH, Owen obviously knows and dislikes Obi-Wan. Will we see their meeting and the origin of Owen's hostility in Ep. III?
    As of now, Obi-Wan has never even met the Lars family. I think Owen is a little bitter because Obi-Wan just stops by and drops off a young Luke, making them take care of him. Also, Anakin did leave Tatooine to go help Obi-Wan on Geonosis, which could be seen as following him on a crusade.
  6. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    I think Owen is a little bitter because Obi-Wan just stops by and drops off a young Luke, making them take care of him.

    But in ANH, Owen doesn't seem bitter about having Luke with him. He's more bitter/angry about the possibility of losing Luke--whether to Obi-Wan or to the academy.
  7. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    1) Remember, Owen says "he died about the same time as your father" when talking about Obi-Wan. So Obi-Wan probably takes the name Ben when Anakin takes the name Vader. This event must happen before the twins are born otherwise Vader would know about Luke and Leia. Maybe he knows about Luke, but he certainly doesn't know about Leia until ROTJ.

    2)Leia specifically says that Obi-Wan served her father in the clone wars. So what I'm hoping is that there is a battle that takes place on Alderaan. I would be nice to see the place before it gets blown up.

    3)I always thought that Owen's bitterness came from the fact that he blames Obi-Wan for what happened to Anakin and he doesn't want it to happen to Luke.

    As for that idealisic crusade, is it possible that Obi-Wan comes around and sees the corruption in the republic like Qui-Gon and Dooku. We have already seen his low opinion of politicians in AotC. Perhaps all of the Jedi decide to break away from the republic. Maybe that's why Dooku told Obi-Wan about Sidious, to make the Jedi leave the republic and give Palpatine a reason for the Jedi Purge. Well I'm rambling now, so I'll just stop.

    [singing] It's the end of the world as we know it.[/singing] Damn Rilina, you got that song in my head. ;)
  8. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    [singing]That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and snakes and aeroplanes.Lenny Bruce is not afraid. Eye of a hurricane...[/singing] Great song, huh?

    As for that idealisic crusade, is it possible that Obi-Wan comes around and sees the corruption in the republic like Qui-Gon and Dooku.

    Perhaps Obi-Wan begins to catch on to Palpatine? He gets Anakin to join him in his fight against the Emperor (hmm, wonder when in Ep.III or after he takes that title?). Anakin comes along but he fails the test Luke passes in ROTJ; he kills Dooku using his anger and rage and and seduced to the dark side. Whenever Obi-Wan drops off Luke with Owen and Beru, he tells them that Anakin is dead. Owen thinks Anakin died because he followed Obi-Wan. Hence the hostility. But I suppose that would have to mean that Anakin was with Owen when Obi-Wan asked Anakin to join him...

  9. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    "[singing]That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and snakes and aeroplanes.Lenny Bruce is not afraid. Eye of a hurricane...[/singing] Great song, huh? "

    Oh, definately a great song. At least, it was great before it got stuck in my head. ;) But that's OK. It's gone now. I think.

    "Perhaps Obi-Wan begins to catch on to Palpatine? He gets Anakin to join him in his fight against the Emperor "

    Hmm, I don't know about getting Anakin to join him. It seems that George has already set up a Palpatine conflict between Anakin and Obi-Wan in AotC. Anakin likes the guy, but Obi-Wan isn't too sure about him. Somehow I just don't think that Anakin will go after Palpatine.

    "But I suppose that would have to mean that Anakin was with Owen when Obi-Wan asked Anakin to join him..."

    I still think that Anakin will have to be with Owen or at least on Tatooine when Obi-Wan comes to get him.

    Obi-Wan: 'He didn't hold with your fathers' ideals. He thought he should have stayed here and not gotten involved.'

    I suppose this could happen off-screen though. We probably don't actually have to see this since Obi-Wan explains it all in ANH. Or maybe George will just add a scene into AotC where Owen says: 'Hey Anakin. Stay here! Don't get involved!' Nah, that would be lame. ;)

    Anyway here?s my new theory. I apologise for the slight off-topicness:

    How about if Obi-Wan gets Anakin to join him in defending the republic. Since the republic has basically become a dictatorship, maybe there are now other Jedi like Dooku who aren't happy with the way things are going. Yoda's line about arrogance being a common amoungst Jedi might be relevant here. So the Jedi are fighting amounst themselves and the republic-Jedi need all of the help they can get which is why Obi-Wan goes to get Anakin.

    This Jedi war fits in with the whole idealogical crusade thing since Dooku is a political idealist. This would be an idealogical war based on the serperatist-Jedi argument that Jedi shouldn't mindlessly serve such an obviously corrupt republic, which also happens to be becoming a dictatorship. So, they are crusading around the galaxy, and Obi-Wan discovers Palpatine's true identity, but Anakin refuses to believe him. This could be just another factor which leads to their inevitable fight.

    This whole Jedi war thing would be a good excuse for the Jedi purge. It would seem like the Jedi are tearing up the galaxy and Palpatine will be ready to step in and restore peace by killing them all. This will happen after Anakin becomes Darth Vader but just before the twins are born. The purge will start and Obi-Wan will be forced to use the name Ben because he is too well known.

    Anyway that's my ramble. It's all off of the top of my head so don't take it too seriously. I really don't know what I'm talking about half of the time. :D




  10. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    I still think that Anakin will have to be with Owen or at least on Tatooine when Obi-Wan comes to get him.

    I hated this idea the first time that I heard it. But it's really growing on me--because it really seems like the most logical explanation of all that's said. This could also explain (slightly off-topic) how Luke ends up on Tatooine. Maybe he's born there--and Padme just leaves with Leia later. But that's speculation for another thread.

    Back to Obi-Wan: Your theory has a lot of great points. When I take that approach, I feel like the rift in the Jedi may happen differently. Perhaps the rift is not over whether they should support the Republic, but how. We've already saw glimpses of this. There are no longer enough Jedi to police the galaxy, and Mace and Yoda don't really seem to like the idea of seeing the Jedi leading the army.

    But perhaps Obi-Wan does. He called Geonosis a success (until Yoda scolded him). Perhaps other younger and impetuous Jedi like Obi-Wan disagree with Yoda and run off to become part of the military heirarchy. For all we know, Obi-Wan could have been General Kenobi for years by the time Ep. III starts. And if Obi-Wan had defied the Jedi council (Yoda, Mace, etc.) once, that would explain a second defiance--going back to get Anakin who has presumably left the Jedi because of his marriage. Perhaps Obi as General needed a good pilot like Anakin--he does mention Anakin's ability as a pilot in ANH.

    As for the Jedi Purge: well, aren't their numbers low already? Sure seemed that way in AOTC. More could die in the war--especially if they ran off to join the army--and then, if the mainstream Jedi were being pacifist during the Clone Wars, that would explain why the Republic would turn on them.



  11. Obi-Paul_Otremba Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    I have been wondering about the whole "General Kenobi" thing since i saw AOTC the first time.

    One of the first things that Mace Windu says is "We are keepers of the peace; not soldiers."

    I find it hard to believe that this line is in their for no reason. By the end of the movie, I was totally confused. Yoda is leading the clone troopers all over the place like a general and it doesn't make sense.

    Somewhere there must be some Jedi Council rules broken.
  12. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    Rilina,

    I hated this idea the first time that I heard it. But it's really growing on me--because it really seems like the most logical explanation of all that's said.

    Of course there is the possiblity that Ankain isn't living on Tatoooine, and that he just goes back temporarily for some reason. After all, he did have that dream about freeing slaves which he hasn't done yet. Sure, sometimes a dream is just a dream but I don't think that Lucas would have put that line in TPM for no reason.

    Perhaps other younger and impetuous Jedi like Obi-Wan disagree with Yoda and run off to become part of the military heirarchy. For all we know, Obi-Wan could have been General Kenobi for years by the time Ep. III starts.

    Ooooooh, I like this! That wouild definately explain the whole general Kenobi thing. I still wonder why Obi-Wan serves Bail Organa though. Mr Organa didn't seem like the type who would be interested in fighting a war.

    As for the Jedi Purge: well, aren't their numbers low already? Sure seemed that way in AOTC.

    To my understanding, it was the number of available Jedi that was low. I think that there are still many Jedi left by the end of AotC, but they're are spread throughout the galaxy in an effort to maintain peace. However, as you say, it is likely that many Jedi will die in the clone wars. Still, Obi-Wan said that Vader helped the empire to kill Jedi, so there will have to be some kind of Jedi purge at some point.

    and then, if the mainstream Jedi were being pacifist during the Clone Wars, that would explain why the Republic would turn on them.

    I'm not sure about that. Maybe people wouldn't be happy with the Jedi for not fighting but I can't see them killing Jedi for it. It would be like us going around killing buddhist monks for not helping us fight a war. Then again, if Palpy is in full control of the galaxy at this point, I suppose he can do whatever he pleases.

    Obi-Paul_Otremba,

    When Mace says that line he is talking about the possibilty of the speratists breaking away from the republic. My point is that it is possible that he wasn't talking about Jedi rules. Maybe he was talking about the simple reality of the situation. That there aren't enough Jedi to fight a war. They're job is to make sure that a war doesn't break out in the first place because if it does there's nothing they can do about it. You need large numbers to fight a war.
  13. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    Well, perhaps there will be a battle in Alderaan--it does seem like there has to be some explanation of why Leia ends up there. The only problem with a battle in Alderaan is that its supposedly a peacable planet (according to Leia in ANH). Of course, I guess Naboo is also a peacable planet, and we know how much good that did it. :)

    I suppose the Senate would have some authority over the military--which might explain the serving Bail Organa comment. Or maybe Leia's just trying to remind Ben how she's connected to him--and she uses the word "serve" since her (adoptive) family is royalty?

    I would love to see General Kenobi in action during Ep. III. The PT need a good space battle--and that would also be an excuse to get Anakin back into a cockpit (I'd hate to think his reputation as a hotshot pilot is solely based on events in TPM).

    Here's a can of worms: Any chance that Ben's ability to disappear in ANH will be explained in Ep. III? And, of course, if so, how?
  14. thenink Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 2002
    star 2
    How about this: When Ben says "He (Owen) thought your father should stay here and not gotten involved" meaning that Anakin should have stayed on Tattoine as a little boy and not ran off with Qui-Gon.

    Of course that's kinda like getting a 400 pound woman in a pair of hot pants....it's a 'big stretch'! :D
  15. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    I'd really love to see a battle on Alderaan. However, even though both Alderaan and Naboo are peacable the difference is that according to Leia there aren't even any weapons on Alderaan. I think a battle between battledroids and people wielding broomsticks and chicken rotisseries would be kind of sad. Maybe Organa Obi-Wan will lead an army of clone troopers in defense of Alderaan.

    I suppose the Senate would have some authority over the military--which might explain the serving Bail Organa comment.

    Do senators usually get directly involved in war? Then again, this is SW. If George can have Queens getting elected, then he can have senators performing 'Lord of the Dance' in the senate rotunda if he wants to. (I hope George doesn't read this. He might get some funny ideas. :eek: Anything's possible after that jedi rocks travesty.)

    The PT need a good space battle--and that would also be an excuse to get Anakin back into a cockpit (I'd hate to think his reputation as a hotshot pilot is solely based on events in TPM).

    Don't forget the wonderful skills he demonstrated in his cool yellow speeder in AotC. But you're right, there's a definate absense of wholesome space battle goodness in the PT so far.

    Any chance that Ben's ability to disappear in ANH will be explained in Ep. III? And, of course, if so, how?

    Well that was supposed to be explained in Aotc wasn't it? I was quite disappointed about that actually. But, I think it's central to the plot somehow so I'm sure we'll see something. There was a really good thread about this in the Aotc forum, but I doubt if I could find it in all of that mess. Threads in that forum are like shifting sand dunes.
  16. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    The AOTC forum tends to give me a headache--I mostly lurk there. They do have a great Obi-Wan thread--well, it sometimes descends to drooling over Ewan, but still has some great posts. ;)

    As for the clonetroopers--did you ever imagine that Jedi would be leading a clone army? I always assumed that the Jedi would be fighting the clone army--a big shocker from AOTC. Well, it's nice to know that GL can still surprise us. But there definitely seems to be a big potential for conflict between Yoda and Obi-Wan in this case. Remember Yoda says "Wars not make one great" in ESB--and he did already seem to be regretting (in part) the use of the clone army at Geonosis.

    Which brings me to the Jedi Purge. I've been thinking about how non-Jedi in the CT talk about the Jedi and the Force. They either don't really know anything about it, or they think of it as something outdated. Examples:
    TARKIN: The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the universe.
    You, my friend, are all that's left of their religion.
    ----
    MOTTI: Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Lord Vader.
    Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure
    up the stolen data tapes, or given you clairvoyance enough to find the
    Rebel's hidden fort...
    ----
    HAN: Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good
    blaster at your side, kid.

    There's no sense at all that the Jedi are a group of people who have been banned/publicly disgraced. The general sense is that the Jedi have just faded away or are no longer relevant. So I'm beginning to think the Jedi purge is something much more subtle and sneaky: not something as obvious as an attack on the Jedi temple. I wonder how much of the Jedi purge will actually be seen on screen in Ep.III--maybe we'll just see a hint of what's to come.

    This sense of the Jedi as no longer relevant might also explain why Leia addresses Obi-Wan as General Kenobi (not Master Kenobi)--they're not expecting help from the Jedi or the Force, they just want his military expertise. Perhaps Obi-Wan never officially becomes a fugitive--perhaps his hiding on Tatooine is solely the result of his sense of the hidden threat to all Jedi and (of course) the need to be near Luke.


  17. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    Obi-Wan disappearing: Well, I braved the Aotc forum to find this thread. I found it on page 18 no less. You may have read it already but it has some good posts on theories of why Jedi disappear.

    Clonetroopers: Yeah, before AotC, I'd always thought that the clones were going to be the bad guys in the clone wars. Then again, they kind of are the bad guys. Or are they the good guys. I'm so confused ?[face_plain]. It doesn't help that they look so much like stromtroopers. My brain seems unable to shake the idea that stormtroopers = bad guys. Everytime I watch AotC I keep expecting the Jedi to start taking swings at the clonetroopers. But I do love the irony of having the Jedi leading the armies of the future empire. Not to mention the irony of having the Jedi being partly responsible for giving Palpy his army.

    Jedi Purge: That's a really good point about the Jedi fading away. Nobody expresses any hostility towards the Jedi which yoiu would expect if Palpy had made them look like bad guys. Also, Obi-Wan still walks around in his Jedi robes so you'd think that if the Jedi had been disgraced then he would get attacked or something. It just seems like nobody gives two hoots about the Jedi anymore. But then again, why does he change his name to Ben? Also remember that Vader 'helped the empire hunt down and destroy the Jedi Knights'. That sounds pretty violent to me. I suppose if Palpy is in complete control then he doesn't need to discredit them.

    But its not even just the Jedi who have faded away. It sounds like even the very idea of the Force has been debunked somehow. Don't ask me where this came from, but is it possible that midi-chlorians could have something to do with the Jedi Fade? Maybe midi-chlorians are discovered to be false thus undermining the Jedi's existence. I doubt this would happen since simbiosis is such a central theme of SW, but it would certainly make the nay-sayers happy.

    This sense of the Jedi as no longer relevant might also explain why Leia addresses Obi-Wan as General Kenobi (not Master Kenobi)--

    I think that's a really good point. Surely Kenobi should be refered to as master Kenobi. Surely they should be more interested in him as a Jedi Knight than as a general. That 'general' thing is really bugging me now. Perhaps it will just be another one of those things that doesn't quite match up with the OT. What I mean is it might end up being a line like 'when I first knew him your father was already a great pilot'.
  18. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    Thanks for the thread on Jedi disappearing. Did you read that entire thing? Sheesh, I thought I wrote long posts...

    But its not even just the Jedi who have faded away. It sounds like even the very idea of the Force has been debunked somehow.
    Well, many of the Rebel leaders still refer to the Force (the classic "May the Force be with you" line). I believe that line is said to the pilots at Yavin in ANH and in the briefing room in ROTJ.

    In ANH (quoted in my previous post) a lot of people sarcastically referred to the Force/Jedi way as a religion. The reactions of characters in GFFA to the idea of the Force very much reminds me of the reaction of people in our world to the idea of God. Some people are sure God exists in a certain form (say Christianity or Judaism). Other people don't really believe in religion, but do have some belief in a vague higher power. And of course, there are skeptics everywhere--some people simply don't believe in God in all.

    In GFFA, the seeming disappearance/fading away of the Jedi would be a perfect reason for general society to stop believing in the idea of the Force. The Rebel Alliance--being a group of people dedicated to the idea of restoring the old ways of the Republic--would naturally be more open to the "old" ideas of the Jedi and the Force.

    This goes along with my previous idea that Palpatine doesn't need to overtly attack the Jedi--just make them look impotent or outdated. General society would forget about or dismiss them, and then Palpatine could more secretly hunt them down and destroy them with Vader. Kenobi (having won some sort of acclaim in the Clone Wars) would still have some respect, but more as a General than as a Jedi Master. Still, knowing that Palpatine was a Sith and in power, Kenobi is smart enough to hide himself on Tatooine.

    That 'general' thing is really bugging me now. Perhaps it will just be another one of those things that doesn't quite match up with the OT. What I mean is it might end up being a line like 'when I first knew him your father was already a great pilot'.
    Well, I really hope that doesn't prove to be the case. Jake Lloyd as a pilot in TPM=urgh. That was pretty annoying. I suppose it could just be an honorific for something Obi-Wan does in Ep. III. You know, in German they'll call just about anyone "Herr Doktor", and in Korean, anyone worthy of respect is called "Teacher." I really dislike the idea of people casually tossing about military titles, however--those have such distinct meanings that people are more generally careful with them. Then again, the Rebel Alliance does make Han Solo and Lando Calrissian into generals pretty quickly in ROTJ--of course, they are probably a little more lax about military protocol given the urgency of their situation. Perhaps Obi-Wan is given the same sort of emergency field promotion in Ep.III (or in the events between AOTC and Ep.III)?

    All this speculation regarding General Kenobi makes me hope that there will be at least one big space battle or land battle in the first half of AOTC. It could establish Obi-Wan's involvement in the military--still leaving plenty of time for the core story of Anakin's seduction by the Dark Side and the chaos that ensues.

  19. Padawan716 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Feb 7, 2001
    star 6
    they are keepers of the peace, so if there is some kind of uprising in the republic, they protect the peace by fighting for the republic, I think.
  20. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    Well, many of the Rebel leaders still refer to the Force (the classic "May the Force be with you" line). I believe that line is said to the pilots at Yavin in ANH and in the briefing room in ROTJ.

    Yes that's true. But, I did a project on etymology (word history) for a linguistics course this year and I discovered that 'good bye' actually comes from 'God be with you'. Now everyone says 'good bye' or some variation, but as you pointed out, not everyone believes in God. My point is that 'may the Force be with you' could just be their way of saying 'good bye'. It could be a kind of cultural hand-me-down from a time when belief in the Force was more prominent. It doesn't necessarily mean that they believe in the Force.

    The Rebel Alliance--being a group of people dedicated to the idea of restoring the old ways of the Republic--would naturally be more open to the "old" ideas of the Jedi and the Force.

    I think this is also likely. It could be another symbolic type of thing to make us like rebels so that we automatically think of them as the good guys. This would also make the rebel's final victory that much sweeter since we could infer that the religion of the Force had been restored to the galaxy. Not to mention that if Leia became the Queen like she was meant to then she would be the first ruler who could be guided by the Force itself. She'd be like a cross between the senate and the Jedi order. But I digress.

    In ANH (quoted in my previous post) a lot of people sarcastically referred to the Force/Jedi way as a religion.The reactions of characters in GFFA to the idea of the Force very much reminds me of the reaction of people in our world to the idea of God.

    Good point. But, I didn't mean to imply that the idea of the Jedi/Force had disappeared but rather that they had lost their relevance and that maybe people didn't belive in the Force any more. Actually, I've just had a thought. If Anakin is hailed as being the 'chosen one', a kind of Force champion, how are people going to feel about the Force when he goes psycho? They're either going to judge the Force by the actions of its champion which, means they'll hate it, or else just stop believing in it. Aside from the 'Foorcebye' ;) people, the only other non-Force users to speak of the force at all were imperials who had spent their time watching people being Force-choked by a very large man with a silly helmet. These people had reason to beleive in the Force because they had seen it in action.But, I must admit that although Han thought of the Jedi religion as hokey, he still had a good opinion of the Jedi. "A Jedi Knight? I'm out of it for a little while, everybody gets delusions of grandeur." Hmm, what did all this have to do with Obi-Wan again?

    Jake Lloyd as a pilot in TPM=urgh.

    Yeah, even worse was the portrayal of 'But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi.' That = uuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggghhhhhhhh!!!! Well, maybe it wasn't quite that bad, perhaps just uuurrrgggghhh!! :)

    I really dislike the idea of people casually tossing about military titles

    Yeah, me too. I really hope the general thing is not just some random honorific. But that's a good point about Lando becoming a general. I don't have a problem with Han since he'd been around for a while, but what were they thinking when they made Lando a general. I guess Leia forgot to mention how untrustworthy he is. I mean I like the guy and all, but it seems that main reason he helped them in ESB is because Vader kept dicking him on the deal.
  21. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    Well, in an attempt to get this thread somehow back on topic, here's my thoughts on a possible way that Obi-Wan's story arc may work out in Ep. III. I've tried to incorporate all the ideas that we've come up with:
    Opening crawl: The Clone Wars are raging, and Obi-Wan has received a field promotion to general to lead the clone troopers (against the trade federation?). Perhaps Bail Organa is a "Secretary of Defense" type in Palpatine's government (to explain that whole serving business). We see Obi-Wan and Yoda disagreeing about Obi-Wan's role in the war; Yoda's not sure that it's a good idea, while Obi-Wan is enjoying his life as a hotshot general. Obi-Wan receives a particularly critical mission--for which he needs a great pilot. Palpatine, being a helpful sort of guy, recommends that young Skywalker fellow. Obi-Wan goes to Tatooine to find Anakin, who has been peacefully living there with Padme. Anakin, who loves to fly, jumps on board (over Owen's protests). The mission is a success (and a big exciting action sequence). It also feeds Anakin's pride and puts him back in the path of Dooku and Sidious. Sneaky old Palpatine tells Anakin that Dooku is after Padme. Already angry about losing his arm and fiercely protective of his wife, Anakin attacks and kills Dooku. In doing so, he is seduced by Palpatine into using the dark side of the force. Anakin takes Dooku's place as the new Sith apprentice.

    Not being an utter idiot, Obi-Wan begins to sense that all is not right with his former padawan--perhaps here he gets in touch with Padme and learns she is pregnant. He tells her to keep it secret as long as she can while he figures out what is up with Anakin. Meanwhile, Palpatine uses the success of his military operations to make the Jedi look irrelevant (General Kenobi is the hero--not Master Obi-Wan Kenobi) and to declare himself Emperor. Palpatine then begins secretly to send his new Sith apprentice Anakin out to wipe out the Jedi, one by one, at a time when the general public hardly cares about what happens to the Jedi. Months pass: many Jedi have died. It's not clear that there's some concerted effort against them. Perhaps at this point Mace dies at Anakin's hands.

    Obi-Wan suspects Anakin of the murders and confronts him. They fight, and Obi-Wan gives Anakin serious injuries. (Perhaps Obi-Wan overcomes Anakin's greater talent because Anakin's aggressiveness makes him vulnerable.) Anakin is forced into Vader's suit as part of his long recovery. While Anakin is briefly out of commission, Obi-Wan talks with Yoda and his buddy Bail Organa, and they all begin to realize how they have been manipulated. They realize that Palpatine is behind everything, and they realize that Anakin's children could be their hope and saviors. Obi-Wan goes to Tatooine, where Padme (who was pregnant when Anakin left to go to war) has given birth to twins. He tells Owen and Beru that Anakin is dead--hence Owen's hostility toward Obi-Wan later. He tells Padme the truth, and explains why the twins must be hidden. Luke is left with Owen and Beru; Padme and Leia go to Alderaan under the protection of Bail Organa. (Maybe Padme fakes her death around this point, so that's why Anakin doesn't come after her.) Last shots are a sad montage: the rise of the empire on various worlds, a shot of Vader w/ the famous breathing, Padme in hiding with Leia, Luke with the Lars, and Yoda and Obi-Wan together one last time before they go into hiding. Obi-Wan thinks his old name is too famous and decides to call himself Ben. They part. Closing music. The (tragic) end.

    Pure speculation of course, but shaped by some of the discussion we've had. I got in the "General Kenobi," the "serving" Bail Organa, the Jedi Fade, the obligatory fight between Obi-Wan and Anakin, the Obi-Wan/Owen hostility. I don't think this scenario for Episode III has any major continuity problems. On the other hand, I feel like Padme would have to be doing more in the film than I've given her to do.

    On the other hand, even I can't i
  22. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    Well Done! Not only did you manage to get this thread back on track but you summerised what we've been talking about quite well.

    "On the other hand, I feel like Padme would have to be doing more in the film than I've given her to do."


    I wouldn't worry about that too much. I like Padme but so far it seems as if George has given her nothing to do but sit around looking pretty while trying not to be captured/assassainated. But maybe I would have Padme leave Tatooine with Anakin. Another thing I might change is Anakin's reasons for leaving Tatooine. I feel that the key is 'he didn't hold with your father's ideals'. I realise George could abandon this line like he has with some others, but I feel that there will have to be some real idealogical issue involved in EPIII. In your version Anakin jumped on board because he 'loved to fly'. I just feel there'll be much more to it than that.
    But otherwise, I like it! :)

    "On the other hand, even I can't imagine it would actually be the film GL would make. The great flannelled one has always had a knack for surprising me."


    Yeah, somehow I think that it doesn't matter what we come up with because he will always come up with something completely different.




    Also I have found some things around the place which support some of the things we have been talking about. In another thread AnaiNaberire posted this:
    "If I remember correctly, the radio dramas are canon. In episode 2 of the series, point of origins, it is said that obi wan kenobi helped alderaan survive the clone wars. I think this should be very interesting if we should see it!"


    Sounds good to me! It would explain why Obi-Wan served Organa. Perhaps on alderaan people who have provided service for the state are awarded with the title 'general'. This would explain why Leia refers to him as 'general'. Because she comes from Alderaan 'general' means so much more then 'Jedi Master'. Kind of like the cultural honorifics (Herr Doktor etc.) that you were talking about earlier. Also, she could use 'general' to remind him of the time that he helped Alderaan in the hopes of getting him to help again. In other words she is appealing the general who once helped save her planet rather than the Jedi master in exile. Also if Obi-Wan's on Alderaan then it would be safe to assume that Anakin might not be far away. If so then Padme might also be there. This would give her a chance to form some kind of relationship with Bail, and would be a good reason for her to live there if she survives EPIII. Besides, it would be a great chance for that Alderaan battle we want to see.

    Also, a bit off-topic, but on the official site I found this:
    The Republic is no more -- the corruption of the Senate and the inefficiencies of the Jedi have been swept away following the turbulent Clone Wars.


    That "inefficiencies of the Jedi" bit sounds a bit like your Jedi Fade theory. You could be on to something.
  23. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    I like Padme but so far it seems as if George has given her nothing to do but sit around looking pretty while trying not to be captured/assassainated.
    Tell me about it. I wish GL had given Padme a little more common sense. I always liked Leia's no-nonsense side. She could be the pretty princess when it was required, but she didn't mind getting her hands dirty. I don't think Leia would have worn such ridiculous get-ups on picnics or boat rides--or worn that black dress when she was trying to discourage a suitor. Sheesh.
    I realise George could abandon this line like he has with some others, but I feel that there will have to be some real idealogical issue involved in EPIII. In your version Anakin jumped on board because he 'loved to fly'.
    You're probably right there. In ANH, Owen reminds me of American isolationists before WWII. Stay at home, don't get involved, it's not our concern. That goes against the general Jedi philosophy: get involved--protect the weak--uphold justice--keep the peace. Now I don't think Anakin quite has the Jedi philosophy down in AotC, but he's definitely not passive and isolationist. He always has to go out and do something active. That could be the clash between Anakin and Owen. Anakin wants to be involved in the events of the galaxy; Owen just wants be a Tatooine moisture farmer. Obi-Wan asks Anakin to be involved and Anakin jumps at the chance. And I think Anakin would especially jump at the chance if he'd been rejected by the Jedi and twiddling his thumbs for a while, don't you think? (Hmm, maybe Anakin and Padme start out living on Naboo, but he leaves her with Beru and Owen ("good people" as he says in AotC) when he goes off the war. And that's when Owen registers his disapproval.)
    Also, she could use 'general' to remind him of the time that he helped Alderaan in the hopes of getting him to help again. In other words she is appealing the general who once helped save her planet rather than the Jedi master in exile.
    Excellent idea! She uses the title General because that's how he's relevant to her family and her planet. I like the idea of my proposed opening space battle being at Alderaan. That would make Obi-Wan's request to Anakin that much more appealing--assuming that Alderaan is already the pacifist planet that it is in ANH. And that seems likely--isn't Organa one of the senators against the formation of the army? Then Obi-Wan could say, "Hey Anakin, come help me protect this unarmed planet from the bullies of the Trade Federation!" Organa could know already Padme from the Senate, I suppose. I hope they don't put him in any more turtlenecks.
    :D

    I'm really looking forward to the scene where Obi-Wan figures out that Palpatine's been manipulating everything!
  24. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    "I hope they don't put him in any more turtlenecks."

    Heehee. Those crazy Alderaanians ... uh Alderese? No maybe, Alderaans ... or Alderaaners ... bah!

    Anyway, those Alderaan people sure have crazy fashion sense. Between Bail's turtlenecks and Leia's buns I'm not so sure that I actually want to see Alderaan anymore. ;)

    "Now I don't think Anakin quite has the Jedi philosophy down in AotC, but he's definitely not passive and isolationist. He always has to go out and do something active. That could be the clash between Anakin and Owen. Anakin wants to be involved in the events of the galaxy; Owen just wants be a Tatooine moisture farmer. "

    I agree. What you've got there is more than enough to justify Obi-Wan's statements to Luke. But somehow I feel that it might even be more than that. I'm not sure why, but I keep of thinking of the 'sound of music' political discussion scene from AotC:

    ANAKIN: "We need a system where the politicians sit down and discuss the problems, agree what's in the best interests of all the people, and then do it."

    PADME: "That is exactly what we do. The trouble is that people don't always agree. In fact, they hardly ever do."

    ANAKIN: "Then they should be made to."

    Whenever I think of Anakin and ideals it is always this scene that comes to mind. I'm not sure how it could tie in with the larger story though. Especially since Anakin is following Obi-Wan when he leaves Tatooine. I'm not sure what sort of ideals Obi-Wan has. We know that he doesn't trust politicians though.

    "And I think Anakin would especially jump at the chance if he'd been rejected by the Jedi and twiddling his thumbs for a while, don't you think?"

    To be sure. But I have an idea that he might be up to more than just twiddling his thumbs.

    "(Hmm, maybe Anakin and Padme start out living on Naboo, but he leaves her with Beru and Owen ("good people" as he says in AotC) when he goes off the war. And that's when Owen registers his disapproval.)"

    I think that you're right about them starting off on Naboo. I think that something might actually happen to drag Anakin back to Tatooine. I have no idea what though.

    "That would make Obi-Wan's request to Anakin that much more appealing--assuming that Alderaan is already the pacifist planet that it is in ANH."

    When you combined the words 'Obi-Wan's' and 'request' it made me think that this could make a good parellel with ANH. Maybe Obi-Wan would even send R2 with a recording for Luke Which Owen would stumble arcoss:

    Obi-Wan: [hologram]'Help me, Anakin Skywalker. You're my only hope.'[/hologram]

    Owen: 'Who is he? He's beautiful.' :eek: ... oh no forget I said that.
    ;)

    "Organa could know already Padme from the Senate, I suppose."

    I didn't think of that. In the original script of TPM didn't Bail support Padme in the senate of something? The reason I had Padme go to Alderaan was because I was searching to give her something to do other than sit around Tatooine popping babies out.

    Anyway, I've had another random thought. Is it possible that Padme is on Alderaan when Obi-Wan camoes to get Anakin? Perhaps one of the reasons Anakin leaves is to save his wife. This would also explain why Anakin doesn't know that she is pregnant. So Anakin would follow Obi-Wan and they would get into a battle and maybe in the course of that battle they never actually find Padme. Maybe Anakin thinks that she's dead or something. Anyway, I'm rambling again so I'll stop before I get too carried away. :)
  25. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    Alderaanians, I think. That's what I've seen in EU books, at least. (Yes, I know that EU isn't canon, but for this sort of point it can be useful).

    Hmm, I thought the 'sound of music' political discussion was to foreshadow Anakin's character development rather than an actual plot point in AotC. But I do wonder why they made it so clear that Obi-Wan doesn't like politicians. He seemed a little too cynical for a Jedi when he was making his snide remarks about politicians during AotC. I suppose it could be an explanation of why he ultimately survives all the events of Ep.III to fight another day. Having had a dislike of politicians from the beginning, he can accept the idea of Palpatine as a deceiver more easily than others--and thus act quicker.

    Owen: 'Who is he? He's beautiful.' ... oh no forget I said that.

    :D

    Though you could have a point here (seriously). If Obi-Wan contacted Anakin by holo while Anakin was with Owen, there would probably be enough reason for Owen to dislike Obi-Wan in ANH. Furthermore, Obi-Wan wouldn't actually have to travel to a backwater planet at a time when he's presumably very busy. It would be rather weird for a busy general to go all the way to Tatooine to get one person.
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