Obi-Wan in Ep. III: questions that need answers

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith (Non-Spoilers)' started by Rilina, May 26, 2002.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    Having had a dislike of politicians from the beginning, he can accept the idea of Palpatine as a deceiver more easily than others--and thus act quicker.

    Well thats what I thought. I still do in fact, but he said something in AotC which made me wonder. I can't quite remember the correct quote but he said something like:
    "Do you think it is true that the senate is in control of a Sith lord. Something doesn't feel right."

    The way that he said it made me think that he was doubting what Dooku told him. I'm just wondering why Lucas put that line in. Either what Dooku told him is a lie and Obi-Wan can feel it or else maybe Obi-Wan will assume that it was a lie and so he won't figure out what is going on until the very end. But then you've got to wonder why such a big deal was made of Obi-Wan not liking politicians not to mention Palpatine himself.
  2. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    I can't quite remember the correct quote but he said something like

    You know, the more time passes since I saw AotC, the less able I am to remember anything for these sorts of discussions. I've tried very hard to think of something vaguely intelligent about Obi-Wan and politicians, but I failed miserably.

    So here's a different thought--will Anakin be a Jedi/padawan when Ep.III opens or will he have been thrown out of the order? Will his marriage still be secret? And how will Obi-Wan react when he finds out what has happened? I thought one major weakness in AotC was the development of the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationships. There didn't seem to be much fondness there--more like mutual irritation. So much for them being "good friends." That's going to take away from the emotional impact of their inevitable confrontation in Ep.III.

  3. starkillah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 1
    OK...I've been lurking in here far too long.

    This thread motivated me to reply:

    Rilina,

    I agree...AOTC does not fufill my interpretation of the Anakin and Obi-Wan relationship. I guess I expected Lucas to show a more friendlier fondness between the two Jedi...especially after seeing and hearing Obi-Wan's telling of Anakin to Luke in ANH. When he is reflecting, Obi-Wan seems to be proud and warm about Anakin...Of course Luke is present...so Obi-Wan sort of has to be diplomatic about Anakin.
    But AOTC showed us mostly that "mutual irritation" was starting to occur...right around the time of Anakin becomming a rebellious teen-ager. Perhaps we don't see the suppossed fondness between them because it happens when Anakin was much younger...This probably happens before AOTC, right after TPM. Would also explain why Anakin views Obi-Wan as a father rather than a friend.

    Wingless,

    "Maybe Obi-Wan would even send R2 with a recording for Luke Which Owen would stumble arcoss:


    Obi-Wan: [hologram]'Help me, Anakin Skywalker. You're my only hope.'[/hologram]

    Owen: 'Who is he? He's beautiful.' ... oh no forget I said that."
    [face_laugh]


    "Heehee. Those crazy Alderaanians ... uh Alderese? No maybe, Alderaans ... or Alderaaners ... bah!"

    You are just too funny! 8-}
  4. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    Welcome to the conversation, starkillah! :)

    Obi-Wan's character has an inherent warmth in AotC that Anakin is sorely lacking. With Obi-Wan, you get a sense that he has matured without becoming a stick-in-the-mud (no matter what Anakin may think). I think that's probably largely due to the work of Ewan MacGregor, who always brings so much life to his characters. Consequently, I always sided with Obi-Wan when he squabbled with Anakin.

    In the CT, when Obi-Wan speaks of Anakin/Vader, you get such a strong sense of regret and guilt. He distinctly feels like he failed Anakin. In fact, I always assumed that his failure was the result of being too indulgent with Anakin--Obi-Wan was sort of the good cop to Yoda's bad cop in terms of Luke's training, and I found it easy to imagine that Obi-Wan could have been too nice with a prodigy like Anakin. From what we've seen in the PT, Obi-Wan has hardly been too indulgent on Anakin; in fact, Obi-Wan seems very aware of Anakin's weaknesses as a padawan and tries to address them. I hope Obi-Wan doesn't spend twenty years in the desert simply because Anakin was a hopeless case from the beginning. I think Obi-Wan's repentance and self-sacrifice in ANH would be so much more powerful if, after the PT is finished, we saw how he is truly atoning for some major mistake he makes. Perhaps that major mistake will be asking Anakin to follow him on that crusade? Who knows...


  5. starkillah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 1
    Rilina,

    I don't think Anakin was a "hopeless" case of training...I agree with some here, that since Anakin was a special case, some sort of adaptive training and guidance should have happened...especially from Obi-Wan and the council. Now I'm not knocking Obi's guidance...I think he did pretty well considering the special circumstances of training the choosen one(Anakin doesn't say it, but I think he believes he is)...but I do think that his timming at disciplining Anakin was a bit unessesary in certain events.
    A small example of this can be seen in the beggining of the movie when Anakin looses his lightsaber in the speeder chase.
    Was it Anakin's fault that he lost his lightsaber trying to defend himself, high above Courscant with some Assassin trying to kill him? Yet Obi-Wan lectures him on this shortly after...and at this point Anakin can't believe Obi and doesn't even defend himself...He's like ok...whatever..."Yes Master"..."Yes Master"..."I'll try Master"
    I believe Obi-Wan realizes his strictness a little to late(Vader), and that is why he is a little less forcefull when training Luke. In ANH, he has way more compassion and experience. Lessons learned from past mistakes.
  6. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    Ooooooooo, a new person! Hello starkillah and welcome. :)

    Well, where shall I start? There's a lot to reply to so I appologise for the length.

    Rilina,

    "I've tried very hard to think of something vaguely intelligent"

    :eek: Oh ... were we meant to be saying intelligent things in here? ;)

    "So here's a different thought--will Anakin be a Jedi/padawan when Ep.III opens or will he have been thrown out of the order?"

    I've been wondering about this also. I wish it had been made more clear at the end of AotC. Apparently the novelisation of AotC has something interesting to say about this. OldieVonMoldie posted this in another thread:
    "Anakin has already begun the trials. And failed miserably. In the AOTC novel, his being sent on his own with Padme to Naboo was his trial, as both Obi wan and the rest of the council are aware of his strong personal feelings toward her. His trial is to overcome these feelings. Apparently, unlike a midterm or final exam, jedi are not told just when they are facing the trials. Anakin's task was to overcome his personal feelings. Obi Wan comments in the book that "He hopes Anakin sees this mission for what it really is". As I said earlier, he fails miserably."
    Now I'm not interested in a cannon debate, but I think that this is interesting. I'm pretty sure that something this important would have been run by George before they put it in the novel. So my guess is that Anakin will not be a Jedi in EPIII. Obi-Wan may have called Anakin a Jedi-Knight in ANH, but that really doesn't mean anything considering what a big fat liar George has made of Obi-Wan. However I do wonder if a padawan gets kicked out of the Jedi order for failing the trials. I wonder if they get another shot at it?

    "I thought one major weakness in AotC was the development of the Obi-Wan/Anakin relationships."

    I agree. I'll try not to rant but I find it really annoying that so many things that we were told about in the OT have turned out to be wrong or at least very different in the PT. I mean, I like the PT and all, but surely if you are going to do a backstory, you should get all of the details correct before you worry about anything else. The real culprit here is Obi-Wan and his big fat lying mouth. Perhaps Obi-Wan was just losing it in his old age.

    "That's going to take away from the emotional impact of their inevitable confrontation in Ep.III."

    Which brings me to my second point. If you are going to make changes to your backstory, they should at least be good ones that improve the nature of the story. What they shouldn't be is things which actually make the story worse. Obviously it's not fair to judge it yet since we have yet to see EPIII, but I wonder about these things.

    "I always sided with Obi-Wan when he squabbled with Anakin."

    I did too a lot of the time, but I can see where Anakin is coming from. I too have been through the whiny stage, although adimitidly it was when I was like 12 or 13 not Anakin's age. But it's hard when everyone treats you like an idiot just because you're young and inexperienced. Actually I'm still young and inexperienced, I just don't care what other people think anymore. :) While Obi-Wan was usually right, I didn't feel that he handled Anakin as well as he could have.

    "He distinctly feels like he failed Anakin. In fact, I always assumed that his failure was the result of being too indulgent with Anakin"

    I kind of agree with starkillah on this. Maybe Obi-Wan's flaw is that he was too harsh on poor Anakin. After all, it seemed to me that Anakin was trying his hardest and all Obi-Wan seemed to do was criticise Anakin over and over again. That can be quite a blow to the ol' self esteem. Of course you've got to correct your student but I just felt that Obi-Wan wasn't as gentle and understanding as he should have been. As Qui-Gon would have been. Also, if you look at how Obi-Wan treats Luke in ANH you will see that he is much more relaxed and layed back with him. He's more of a kind old man. Even wh
  7. starkillah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 1
    "Hee hee. You can just imagine what Obi-Wan would have said about Anakin if he wasn't such a compulsive liar:


    Obi-Wan: "He was the most annoying little punk in the galaxy. I understand you've become a whiny little brat yourself. And he was generally irritating. In fact, I didn't like the guy at all. You know what? I don't like you either. Yes, that's right! You whiny little brat! You heard me! Get out! Go on, get out!"
    [face_laugh]

    Man...Wingless...you ARE Obi bashing today aren't you! [face_mischief]

    Yes...Yes..Obi-Wan may have stretched the truth about some VERY important issues concerning Anakin... but how do you really explain to Luke that Anakin had a hand in wiping out the jedi and joinning the Empire? In ANH, Luke is hearing about his father from someone who actually knew him, you can see the anticipation on Luke's face...Obi-Wan decides to tell Luke the truth about it all by splitting Anakin's life and personality into two different people...one a jedi, the other a sith...Which actually is true from his point of view.
    I would call Owen more of a liar because he never told ANY truth about Anakin to Luke...the choosen one was a touchy and uncomfortable subject to those who knew him. They all delt with it in their own way.
    In getting this thread back on topic, I wonder about Obi's line from ANH:
    "Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough, but your uncle wouldn't allow it."...etc... into the idealistic crusade line.

    Does Anakin know Luke is born in EpIII? Does he tell Obi-Wan he wants his son to learn the ways of the force? Or is this one of those infamous Obi-Wan lies...where he is sort of manipulating Luke to "learn the ways of the force" by implying that Luke should continue in it like his father.
    I always imagined that Obi-Wan came to Owen between EpIII and ANH to teach Luke, but Owen didn't want Luke to become a Jedi...maybe fearing he would end up like Anakin...and maybe because he loved Luke like his son and didn't want him to leave.
  8. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    "Man...Wingless...you ARE Obi bashing today aren't you!"

    Sorry about that! Obi-Wan is actually one of my favorite characters and I have nothing but the greatest respect for him. Even if he doesn't exist. I just don't know what came over me before. [face_blush]

    "Does Anakin know Luke is born in EpIII?"

    I like to think that he does. I know that Rilina disagrees and there is certainly some strong evidence to support her:
    Obi-Wan: "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born."
    However I just like it better if he knew about Luke all along. It makes ESB much more interesting for one thing. Another theory is that Anakin did not know about Luke but that he said something like "if I ever have a son Obi-Wan, I want him to have this lightsaber". But I'm not sure about that one. It would be kind of lame. Of course we should never discount the possibility that Obi-Wan was just being his usual big fat lying self. :eek: Sorry, I'm doing it again! ;)
  9. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    A good thread, this is... :)

    On the issue of Obi-Wan disappearing that was brought up on the previous page; Lucas has indeed said it would be adressed, but not that it would be adressed in AOTC. He also said it was an important plot point, so let's wait for Episode III before we make any judgments on this.

    Wingless;

    I enjoyed reading your posts, although I do not agree all the time. ;)
    One thing I'd like to ask is what exactly you're refering to when you claim that the 2 PT films so far have messed up the backstory as presented (or more accurately - hinted at) in the OT? I can't see how what Kenobi says in ANH, for instance, can be seen as wrong in the light of the PT. Well, Vader killing Anakin is the obvious exception, but apart from that there's not much wrong as far as I can see. Are you sure it isn't more about what you personally pictured and mentally elaborated based on the very few words Kenobi said...?

    I'll enjoy continuing to read and perhaps contribute to the debate! :)
  10. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    Welcome to the discussion, Adali-Kiri! :)

    Wingless, you're too funny!

    As far as Anakin's lightsaber, right now I'm working on the assumption that old Ben just made that up. I can't imagine Anakin telling Obi-Wan during their fateful duel, "Hey, if you kill me, can you give this lightsaber to any unborn child Padme might be carrying?" But I think Obi-Wan knows that the most important thing to Anakin is his family--witness his overprotectiveness of his mother and Padme--and he's making an educated guess about what Anakin would have wanted (not flat out lying). The fact that Obi-Wan's guess very conveniently helps his own grand scheme for Luke along...well, that Obi-Wan was a sneaky one. ;)

    I like that bit from the AOTC novelization a lot. It's a shame that didn't make it into the movie (if that was GL's idea and not just the writer's idea), because I think that would have made the romance much more interesting. Not to mention the fact that it would have covered up a huge plot hole ("Why on earth would they send some out-of-control padawan to protect the Senator of Naboo?!?") It also would have been an interesting contrast with Luke's own trial in ROTJ. Both Anakin and Luke are being asked to give up their family/loved ones, and both resist those orders--with very different results. And it could have added an entirely different dimension to Obi-Wan and Anakin's relationship--we could have seen how Obi-Wan was trying to help Anakin pass his trial, and Anakin's failure to do so would have been that much more poignant for the audience.
  11. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Thanks Rilina! :)

    Having Anakin escort the Senator home doesn't quite seem like a "huge plot hole" to me. After all, the Council assigned him to protect her at the beginning of the AOTC story, and they see him as a Jedi with great potential. It makes sense to me that they wouldn't choose his path for him by separating him from Padme. Anakin has to choose the path himself and prove his worth in the face of trials. That's why they are called just that, I think. And imo, Anakin couldn't have become a true Jedi by being shielded from conflicts by the Council. That is not the Jedi way at all.

    But now I'm getting slightly off topic...
  12. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    But now I'm getting slightly off topic...

    Don't worry--we've been off topic for a while. ;)
  13. starkillah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 1
    Ahh...someone new is here. Welcome Adali-Kiri. :)

    "I like to think that he does. I know that Rilina disagrees and there is certainly some strong evidence to support her:
    Obi-Wan: "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born."
    However I just like it better if he knew about Luke all along. It makes ESB much more interesting for one thing."


    I totally agree Wingless...What if Palpatine(please lets not get into this here!)doesn't know about Luke, but Vader does. He doesn't want the Emperor to get his hands on his son, so he allows Luke to be hidden. The line Wingless mentioned above from ROTJ could maybe mean just that. Vader could have allowed Luke to live freely until the perfect opportunity arose so that he could get to him first, before the Emperor. Of course, he really didn't know about Lea.
    Vader: "So..you have a twin sister?! Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me."

    "As far as Anakin's lightsaber, right now I'm working on the assumption that old Ben just made that up. I can't imagine Anakin telling Obi-Wan during their fateful duel, "Hey, if you kill me, can you give this lightsaber to any unborn child Padme might be carrying?"

    Heh...Well ok Rilina. ;)
    Maybe Wingless and I are being little fanboys for wishing that Anakin knew about Luke...but..you have to admit that it really would make ESB a more powerful movie. Especially the Line: "Your destiny lies with me Skywalker...Obi-Wan knew this to be true."

    Ooh who am I kidding...It's all wishful thinking! :D
  14. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    Man, this thread is getting busy. Hello Adali-Kiri. :)

    "On the issue of Obi-Wan disappearing that was brought up on the previous page; Lucas has indeed said it would be adressed, but not that it would be adressed in AOTC."

    I'd swear that Rick McCallum (who loves you!) had said that it would be covered in EPII. Maybe it was just a rumor. Or maybe it was those voices inside my hea- ... oh ... um ... never mind.

    "One thing I'd like to ask is what exactly you're refering to when you claim that the 2 PT films so far have messed up the backstory as presented (or more accurately - hinted at) in the OT? I can't see how what Kenobi says in ANH, for instance, can be seen as wrong in the light of the PT."

    It seems that I was just in a bashy mood that day. Not sure why. I actually don't think that anything came out 'wrong' in the PT. You're probably right when you say that it is mostly the PT not living up to my interpretations of what we'd already been told. But I still feel that some of the things said in the OT just don't sound right once you've seen the PT.
    Obi-Wan: "When I first knew him, your father was already a great pilot. But I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda. I was wrong."
    Now nothing in that quote is 'wrong' but I still feel that it sounds a little funny. Do you really think that that is what Obi-Wan would have said to Luke if he was describing the PT. If nothing else he should have said: "I thought that I could instruct him as well as my master instructed me." You see, Yoda didn't instruct Obi-Wan in the same way that Obi-Wan instructed Anakin. So to say "I thought I could instruct as well as Yoda" doesn't really make sense. Also, as Rilina pointed out, 'good friends' doen't really describe the relationship that we see in Anakin and Obi-Wan. Don't get me wrong though, I love the PT and I certainly don't let stupid little things like this ruin it for me.

    Rilina,

    I like that bit from the AOTC novelization a lot. It's a shame that didn't make it into the movie (if that was GL's idea and not just the writer's idea), because I think that would have made the romance much more interesting.

    I've been thinking that perhaps they didn't want to make the ending seem too dark. It would have made it more interesting but maybe we will hear about it in EPIII. Obi-Wan will give Anakin a hard time about failing his trials.


    starkillah,

    "He doesn't want the Emperor to get his hands on his son, so he allows Luke to be hidden. The line Wingless mentioned above from ROTJ could maybe mean just that."

    Good point! I hadn't thought of that.

    BTW I don't think that this is wishful thinking at all since it makes SW more dramatic. Some people found Vader's redemption to be a little unbelievable. But if we see right from EPIII that there is a conflict in Vader between Palpy and Luke, it will all make much more sense. It would really tie the saga together. What I really want to know is why Vader is so loyal to Palpy when he seems to really hate him in EPVI.

    Anyway we'd really better start talking about Obi-Wan a bit more before we get locked. So starkillah and Adali-Kiri or anyone else, what do you think of Rilina's summary of our thoughts of Obi-Wan in EPIII on page 1? Do you have anything to say about 'general Kenobi' or anything else Obi-Wanish?
  15. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Starkillah and Wingless - thanks for welcoming me! I'm honoured to be here! :)

    Wingless ---

    I agree completely with your last post. But I do think the line "I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda" can be read many ways. I agree that the fact that Jinn instructed Kenobi during the PT's beginning chapter does confuse this a bit, but not too much. After all, Yoda is Kenobi's mentor in AOTC, and he'll probably play an even bigger part in guiding Kenobi through Episode III. But that's a bit beside our discussion, I guess. Jinn was dead when Kenobi decided to train Anakin, and it IS true that he "took it upon himself".

    "I thought that I could instruct him just as well as Yoda" has always sounded to me like a way of admitting his fatal pride, actually. Like he says in the RotJ novelization - "my pride has had terrible consequences for the galaxy". Obi-Wan is actually admitting that he wasn't ready to train Anakin! And when he says "...as well as Yoda", this makes all the more sense. After having seen what Yoda can do, as both teacher and warrior, in AOTC - who would have the ego of thinking he or she could be as good as him in instructing the Chosen One?

    This is Obi-Wan's big mistake, I think. And that's why he says he thought he could instruct him just as well as Yoda. Not because Yoda could have instructed Anakin (he wouldn't have wanted to), but because Obi-Wan thought too highly of himself. That kind of arrogance is discussed in AOTC's dialogue and it's evident in Kenobi's character - all the way to the end of the film when Yoda has to scold him for calling the battle of Geonosis a victory.

    The line really means that Kenobi is acknowledging Yoda as the greatest teacher, and that he foolishly thought he could measure up to the green little Master..

    Not far enough into the future, did Obi-Wan see...
  16. Wingless Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 28, 2002
    star 1
    Well Adali-Kiri, all I can say is that you've convinced me. That's not something you see around here very often. Somebody acutally convincing someone else of something is unheard of really. [mock gravity]I hope you appreciate how rare this is.[/mock gravity] Anyway, I take back what I said. Whatever that was.

    "That kind of arrogance is discussed in AOTC's dialogue and it's evident in Kenobi's character - all the way to the end of the film when Yoda has to scold him for calling the battle of Geonosis a victory. "

    One question: Do you actually think of Obi-Wan as arrogant? I mean it just seems that arrogant is not a word that I would personally use to describe Obi-Wan. Obviously ANH Obi-Wan isn't arrogant but I'm talking about AotC Obi-Wan.
  17. Rilina Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 3
    Maybe Wingless and I are being little fanboys for wishing that Anakin knew about Luke...but..you have to admit that it really would make ESB a more powerful movie. Especially the Line: "Your destiny lies with me Skywalker...Obi-Wan knew this to be true."
    No, I don't think that interpretation necessarily makes ESB a more powerful movie. Consider: Anakin/Vader is very obsessed and possessive about his family: Shmi, Padme, Luke. Look at the lengths he goes to in ESB to try to get Luke for himself. Look at how he rushes off to look for Shmi. He isn't just possessive--he is always acting on it. Not just standing by and waiting. Consider how much of an effort it took Obi-Wan to keep Anakin from going after Padme near the end of AOTC. With what we've seen of Anakin/Vader in the five existing SW movies, I can't believe Anakin/Vader would allow his son to be separated or hidden from him. But we'll see in 2005, I guess.

    Getting somewhat back on topic, I don't think Vader is entirely lying about Obi-Wan here. Obi-Wan knows that Luke's destiny--as a son and as a Jedi--is inextricably linked to that of Anakin. Obi-Wan understands better than anyone Anakin's obsession with his family. He understands that Vader's family is a threat to him--because family is Vader's weak spot. This is why I think it's likely that a threat to Padme will be used to turn to Anakin in Ep.III. And this is why Obi-Wan goes to such lengths to hide and protect Luke--first by being a desert hermit for twenty years, and ultimately by sacrificing himself on the Death Star. Obi-Wan knows that Luke is the ultimate weapon against Anakin--and he's proved right. Vader can't stand by and watch his son die.

    So with that particular line, Vader apparently has learned some tricks from his old master. He's taken a core of truth and twisted it to suit his own purposes. The certain point of view strikes again!

    One question: Do you actually think of Obi-Wan as arrogant? I mean it just seems that arrogant is not a word that I would personally use to describe Obi-Wan. Obviously ANH Obi-Wan isn't arrogant but I'm talking about AotC Obi-Wan.
    Personally, I don't think Obi-Wan is arrogant. From his line in ANH, I think Obi-Wan is saying it was a mistake to train Anakin at all--and who would blame him for thinking that after seeing Vader in action? Perhaps the pride that Obi-Wan refers to was his determination to fulfill his promise to Qui-Gon. As for his little mistake about the battle of Geonosis, I think that's the result of Obi-Wan failing to see the big picture. Yoda always sees the big picture--or at least tries to. As a single engagement, Geonosis is sort of a victory, but in the grand scheme of things, it's a failure. The Jedi haven't managed to keep the peace; rather, they've started a war.


    Now going back off-topic...

    But if we see right from EPIII that there is a conflict in Vader between Palpy and Luke, it will all make much more sense. It would really tie the saga together. What I really want to know is why Vader is so loyal to Palpy when he seems to really hate him in EPVI.


    Isn't that the nature of the Sith? The master and the apprentice work together, but they also work against each other. In ESB, Vader tempts Luke to help him overthrow the Emperor, and in ROTJ, the Emperor tempts Luke to take Vader's place. Both the Emperor and Vader are ready to turn on each other whenever it suits their interest. The relationship between two Sith Lords is based on hate, aggression, and deceit--there can be no true trust or loyalty there.
  18. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Wingless ---

    Very good question.

    I agree that I don't really find "arrogant" to fit Kenobi too well. But when you think about it ... hmmm, he sure was arrogant in TPM, I think. "Why do I sense that we've picked up another pathetic lifeform?" ... he seemed maybe a little too eager to follow the Council's instructions, and not too able to pick up on important things along the way. Then again, it was he who said something was fishy at the start of the movie, not Jinn.

    Then when he insists on training Anakin even without the permission of the Council (something even Qui-Gon didn't mean to do, mind you), this is surely down to his promise to his Master, but it still is quite arrogant to willingly go against Yoda's warnings.

    In AOTC (as well as the years between the 2 stories) I think Obi-Wan is as guilty as all the Jedi of being arrogant in not putting enough effort into solving the Sith mystery. Even after the events of AOTC the Jedi sit back and say they'll keep a closer eye on things. Hmmm, jeez. This truly IS arrogant, but possibly more so in hindsight than at the time. As Yoda says, Jedi are becoming more and more sure of themselves. This goes for all of them, Kenobi included.

    So I guess one could argue that he is arrogant, and I feel certain that the "retired" Obi-Wan will see it that way himself when he looks back on the events before and during the Clone Wars.

    By comparison, Qui-Gon Jinn is completely different. He would not have been willing to stand by under the shroud of darkness, that much seems clear. And he might very likely have been much more able to comfort the young Anakin, maybe to the point where Skywalker's path would not have been so tragic. I can't help but feel that Obi-Wan is a very "cold" Master compared to the fantastic Qui-Gon. Kenobi doesn't reach that status until years later, when he sets Luke off on the path of the Force.
  19. starkillah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 1
    Adali-Kiri,

    I agree completely...

    From the OS:

    "Obi-Wan incorrectly believed that he could train Anakin as skillfully as the revered Yoda. He would later admit that he was wrong. His arrogance had grave consequences for the galaxy."


    Obi's arrogance is present more in the PT than in the OT. My problem with Obi-Wan, especially in AOTC, lies in the fact that he is always forcefully trying to put Anakin in his place. Obi Wan from AOTC: "We will not exceed our mandate my young padawaan learner...you will pay attention to my lead....you will learn your place young one...your senses aren't that attuned my younger apprentice...Etc...blah, blah..I'm right, you're wrong...I'm the Master, you're the learner. Now do as I say or else I'll tell the council on you!"

    Sheesh! How Rude! :D

    Wow. Gues it's my turn to Obi bash! ;)

    You are right Adali-Kiri... by observing Master Yoda's statement of the jedi, they ARE too sure of themselves. The council might as well laughed at Qui-Gon when he brought up the Sith in TPM. Obi-Wan had the same reaction when Dooku revealed that the Senate was in control by Sidious. "That's not possible...the jedi would be aware of it."

    "So I guess one could argue that he is arrogant, and I feel certain that the "retired" Obi-Wan will see it that way himself when he looks back on the events before and during the Clone Wars."

    I am sure he did...



    By the way...Is it me or does Morpheus in the Matrix Reloaded teaser sound a lot like
    Vader... when he says this line:
    "I believe it is our fate to be here...(then staggering each word)It..is..our......Destiny!"




  20. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Up! This is a wonderful and important thread!
  21. starkillah Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2002
    star 1
    Sheesh...I hate killing threads. I'll try to not be so redundant.
  22. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Don't worry, Starkillah. That wasn't your fault.

    It would be cool to get back into questions that need answers regarding Kenobi, though! :)
  23. Adali-Kiri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2000
    star 4
    Oh my...what happened? [face_plain]

    OK, let's see ... back on topic ... what am I wondering about? Hmmm...

    I am wondering what happens in the Duel. Does Kenobi really defeat Anakin and inflict the wounds that give the Chosen One breathing problems? Or is it an accident? Do they fight or not?

    It seems inevitable to have a Clash of the Titans in EpIII, I think.
    But I still wonder if Kenobi actually deafets his pupil...

    Oh well, just trying to revive a good thread. :)

  24. stinrab Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jul 9, 1998
    star 5
  25. Garth Maul Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 6
    I think, as I've argued before, that Obi-Wan NEEDS to defeat Ani/Vader in The Duel.

    And how?

    Like the Ultimate Jedi Knight - by using the Force for defense and knowledge, not attack or aggression. I want to see a "wild and crazy" Anakin unleashing unbelievable Force stuff and lightsaber stunts, while Obi-Wan remains calm and unwilling to strike out at his student (which would also take a great deal of skill).

    I think Lucas needs to show that the Light Side can better the DS in a duel, because we really haven't seen that so far, have we?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.