Discussion in 'Attack of the Clones' started by Old Juan, Jun 23, 1999.
Up this thread goes .
Wow. I remember reading this back in 99!
I brought it back up because there are a couple threads active right now that have the intelligence and depth that this one does . A very interesting thread to read through.
My God, this one's an oldie-but-goodie...
Seriously, there should be a "hall of fame" for the first bunch of pages of this thread (the older stuff, mostly).
Definately something that should recent guests to the Episode III board should be able to take a look at.
Kenobi rules. =D
Great post. This makes me proud to be a Star Wars fan. Great discussion. This kind of thread means that Star Wars is back with a vegence. With Episode I we didnt get into this type of conversation. AOTC is a geat film and a great Star Wars addition. Anybody who doesnt think so is wrong. obi Wan is great.
I second that!
(Huge Obi-Wan fan here!)
The depth of Obi-Wan's sacrifice and the tragedy he has to really endure won't even be totally understood until Ep III. Man, I am so glad GL cast Ewan as Obi-Wan. A pure stroke of genius!
(In my opinion!)
Crazy old Ben Kenobi
Obi Wan is the epitomie of the Jedi dedication to do good
I have always adored Obi ....he had excellent perceptive skills, could fight well with a Sabre, was brilliantly diplomatic.
He is my idol
Star Wars is back
Whew! Just read the entire thread. Great stuff. I'd like to add this chestnut, which I did not see mentioned anywhere:
What do people think about OWK's drinking? He appears to have two drinks in AOTC, and he's very gregarious in both establishments. And in ANH, he's very familiar with Mos Eisely and the Space Port -- like he's been there before. Everyone speculates that OWK was meditating for 20 years and completely alone on Tatooine, but maybe in fact he visited the city quite a bit, meeting up with friends. It makes his "exile" seem a little less sad.
I'm looking forward to really reading *all*
the posts on this great-looking thread!
I'd love to think that Obiwan had more of a life on Tatooine than meditating for 20 years...it is so sad to think of him alone.
Just to add a couple cents:
I think ObiWan had real affection for Anakin, really cared about him.
It will be so wrenching to see their battle in Ep3.
I think that the tensions between them stem from a mutual mistrust that they try to get past but just can't easily. Obiwan had sensed Anakin to be dangerous, and though I believe that ObiWan got over any hard feelings about Quigon's apparent rejection of him in favor of Anakin, I think Anakin doesn't fully trust that ObiWan has
gotten over this or gotten over the feeling that Anakin is dangerous, so Anakin questions Obiwan's
That aspect of their relationship is truly
sad, because so much of it is unsaid and
frustrating....they can't get past it, neither man can. And they realize that it very much affects their master/padawan relationship. Obiwan acts like
Anakin is at core just 'off', and that's because a small part of him really believes it and he's worried about him. But the worry isn't just fear, or annoyance, it is
genuine concern for him...He's "concerned about his padawan" genuinely. But Anakin can easily read that concern, with the small
festering part that still can be read as "the boy's dangerous", as jealousy, or more accurately resentment. Resentment
for destroying his relationship with
Quigon, perhaps even resentment for
the destruction of Quigon. And that's why
Anakin will rail against Obiwan, saying that
he's holding him back. Or at least that is
why it is easier for him to do this with
Obiwan than it would be for him to do this
with another master.
If we think about how say in Jedi apprentice
we are shown the process whereby Jedi
choose apprentices, the way Obiwan and Anakin came together was way way off...
obiwan would never have chosen anakin in
normal circumstances. that certainly
is sad for obiwan, who valiantly tries
to live up to his task of being the master
to the boy who will indeed be dangerous!
Pandawan, you basically, and quite eloquently, I might add, summed up why "Obi-Wan Kenobi is the saddest character in Star Wars". I second everything you said! As for Obi-Wan drinking, I can't really see it, but that, I suppose is left up to our imaginations.
I guess I'll leave with a resounding,
Obi-Wan is the saddest character in the Star Wars saga. This man efforts never amounted to nothing. As a padawan learner he lost his master in a battle with a Sith Lord, barely escaping with his life. Gaining a powerful padawan to teach the force to. Fighting and barley survived the Clone Wars. His pupil becomes a powerful Sith Lord and killed thousands of people. This man has gone though a lot in his life time. He never or hardly any happiness in the sage only when Luke defeated Vader and when Anaikin Skywalker was at peace.
I do feel sorry for Obi-Wan and all the things that he has to go through. But I think that if you're going to pick out the saddest character in Star Wars, that award should go to Anakin Skywalker.
True, Obi-Wan was one of the lone survivors of the Clone Wars, and his apprentice turned to the Dark Side and became the most powerful and feared man next to the Emperor. But did he change through all this? He lived on Tatooine by himself for many years, but when R2 brought the message from Princess Leia in ANH to him, he didn't hesitate to dust off his lightsaber and go back into action.
But, if you look at what happend to little Ani, it's a little more traumatizing. He and his mother are sold into slavery, has no father figure, he's freed but must leave his mother behind, Qui-Gon dies, the Jedi Council refuses to train him, Obi-Wan trains him but he still believes that Obi-Wan harbors bad feelings for him, Shmi dies, and [Padme` dies we assume]. As we all know, Anakin didn't take all this real well and became Darth Vader. But who can really blame him? All that would mess anybody up!
Here was a young boy who had so much potential for good among the Jedi, yet he became bitter and powerhungry and turned to the Dark Side, until Luke was finally able to redeem him. Even though Obi-Wan watched a lot of sad and disappointing things happen, he, like Yoda, stayed true to himself and his ideals and remained a Jedi to the bitter end--even after that!!
I agree that Anakin is also a very 'sad' character, but he is
so 'big', so powerful, so painful, that it is a less 'human' kind of sad.
Maybe 'sad' just isn't very precise...
Obiwan experiences and projects so many of those
little human sadnesses. Regret. Survivor's guilt. Feeling
powerless (relatively speaking of course..) in the face of events. Knowing loss but forging on anyway. Feeling unsure of how to proceed. Those little pangs, but constantly
experienced. Those nagging anxieties that he tries to get
Perhaps he is not so much the saddest, as the most
resilient really in the face of all the sadnesses that people
can face. They're just not so much the great ego-involving ones that Anakin faces, because of his status as a Jedi, with the eveness that this life is supposed to aspire to...so
there aren't the really big sadnesses of losing a mother, losing a wife, losing a child...
such complex issues...so fun to contemplate!
Where has this thread been? I've never seen it before! What an excellent thread though.
One major difference between the kinds of tragic loss that Obi Wan and Anakin suffer is that, (and this may be an obvious point but I'll point it out anyway) is that Anakin chooses his own path, whereas Obi Wan has his imposed upon him. That is, unless Obi Wan were to abandon the Jedi path and refuse his responsibilities as a Jedi, something he would not do and certainly not during and post AOTC, he must deal with what the consequences, not so much of his own actions, but the actions of Anakin, bring about. At several points, Anakin could choose a different path, but instead insists he cannot be rational, that he has no choice but to do as his heart tells him. Later, not only he but Obi Wan will have to deal with the repercussions of this pattern of behaviour. So, personally, I would say that yes, Anakin is a tragic figure, but Obi Wan more so, because it is his sense of love and duty which condemn, not his actions.
The rift that grows between Obi Wan and Anakin though, is based on a tiny element of mistrust that neither of them could have helped (this in reference to Pandawan's comments). I honestly believe Anakin fears that Obi Wan blames him for the death of Qui Gon. The situation brought it about, not one person, so both are blameless, which only makes it sadder. I believe that the situation with Qui Gon and the beginnings of Anakin's training will be the seed that destroys Obi Wan's and Anakin's relationship. I prefer that idea to some lame manipulation on Palpatine's part concerning Padme. I think Padme may simply be killed outright in Episode III.
One other tragic aspect of Obi Wan is that he engineers the redemption of Anakin, not carries it out. That is, he brings it about through Luke, but probably feels that he should/wants to do it himself. He does, in a way, of course. He never wants to kill Vader, for he only fights defensively in Vader's "showdown", and allows himself to be killed, thus becomimg more powerful and using that power to help Luke and ulitmately Anakin. His goal was always to redeem Anakin, through Luke, not to slay Vader.
Poor Obi Wan. He does the most of any character in SW, yet always gets viewed as being in a supporting role. Also tragic!
Well, that's my rant for now.
PS. Astroanna, you're an Obi Wan fan?! Really? I never noticed!
Obi-Wan has long been my favorite character as well. Since his and Yoda's redemptions have been been mentioned many times in this great and very insightful thread, I thought I would post this chapter from my fan fic which I wrote last summer about a potential Episode III. This is the third to last chapter, and has Obi-Wan (with baby Luke in tow) heading for Dagobah, where he previously left Yoda in an all-out battle with Darth Tyranus.
Obi-Wan angled the Jedi fighter toward the planetary system he now knew to be Dagobah. He had researched the system briefly on Coruscant from the safety of the Jedi shelter, seeking to distract his mind from the stunning revelation that was Darth Vader.
Now he used the ship?s logs to recreate the flight pattern he had taken on his first trip there, taking into account that it was earlier in the day and that the planet was in a different phase of rotation than it had been when he and Yoda had fled here just ahead of Tyrannus? forces.
As he neared the murky blue-gray planet, he stretched out through the Force, searching for the signature of his Master, but instead found nothing. It was not that Yoda was not there, it was as if the Force itself was blocked from his registry here. It was a very odd phenomenon, not one he remembered during their initial flight.
Very curious now in addition to his anxiousness, Obi-Wan landed the fighter on the exact same hill where he had last seen Yoda, battling the Sith Lord with all his might. He shut down the engines and unhooked both himself and Luke from their restraints. Cautiously, he opened the cockpit and stepped out, holding Luke close to him. Obi-Wan cradled the baby boy and begin walking down the hill, moving in a slow circle until something caught his eye.
There, maybe one hundred yards from where had landed, a tiny house rose out of the bog, flickering lights emanating from its rounded windows. Standing solemnly outside the door, looking years older than the time that had passed since their last encounter, and leaning heavily on a wooden stick of a cane, stood Yoda.
Relief flooded Obi-Wan as he moved quickly, covering the distance. All the while, Yoda stared at him, without speaking or moving.
"Master Yoda, you?re alive... I feared the Sith ..."
"Unwise, your return is. Danger to yourself and the boy it could bring."
Obi-Wan was taken aback by Yoda?s gruffness, his Master was seldom cheerful, but considering the time he had clearly spent alone, Obi-Wan thought he would have at least been glad to see him.
"I ... I had to see if you were all right, Master. I have made some horrible discoveries and did not know where else to turn."
"The Emperor," Yoda said, nodding. "The Sith he is."
Obi-Wan was stunned, despite his Master?s infinite wisdom in such matters when he had been Obi-Wan?s teacher.
"You know?? How long have you known?"
"Since my battle with Tyranus ended," Yoda said with a sigh. "Realize did I that the Master he could not be. Too full of weaknesses, too full of pride. While my body began to heal, seek out with my mind the truth. Know of Palpatine do I ... and of Skywalker."
Obi-Wan?s head hung in shame. He could not make eye contact with his Master now, as his failure was brought fully to light.
"Palpatine remade him into a monster, Master. He murdered Master Windu before I could reach them. He calls himself Darth Vader now. I tried to find Anakin?s soul inside him and could not."
Yoda?s eyelids seemed heavy as he replied.
"Felt Master Windu?s passing, did I. A great friend he was, and a powerful Jedi. Now but two are we, where once stood ten thousand. Overconfidence, arrogance, lack of vision, all these things were our weaknesses, now our downfall they are."
"Two Jedi ... two Sith, " Obi-Wan ruminated slowly. "It is balanced, is it not Master? Qui-Gon was right, Anakin has brought balance to the force, the prophecy has come true."
"NO!" Yoda retorted loudly, shaking his head vigorously. "Balance is not in numbers in the Force, balance is in its harmony.
I was brought back to this thread while I was looking through some of my very old posts. This thread is truly a great read. I'm going to read through all the posts here again, although I doubt that I'll be able to come up with anything better than the wisdom that's already here.
Just found this thread - an excellent topic, Old Juan...
I also felt much sadness for Obi-Wan, especially with his death scene.... This great, but humble Jedi Knight seemingly waisted by Vader, even if to help Luke and the others get away - but as the Empire had put a tracking device on the Millenium Falcon, they wanted them to escape to find the hidden rebel base.
It seems that Obi-Wan was able to do more good for Luke in his spirit form than as a tired old man, and by continuing to guide Luke (along with Yoda) he indirectly helps to eventually redeem Anikin.
One thing that IS nice about Obi-Wan, is that he is the only main character (other than R2D2 and C3P0) that (except for aging and dying) will be in EVERY episode, basically unchanged (Anikin becomes Vader in Ep.3, then won't be back until ROTJ).