Obi-Wan Kenobi: v4 Fan Club a/k/a Appreciation Society

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by Valairy Scot, Sep 4, 2012.

  1. obimom Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2010
    star 4
    Edit: Aagh!! my first post wasn't there, and now it is!!

    Grrr...anyway, so here is a wasted post...

    I'd try to put something worthwhile in it, but I have nothing mroe to say at the moment...

    except..Obi-Wan rocks



    Just ask Siri...:D
    Last edited by obimom, Mar 1, 2013
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  2. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Heh heh, good way to fill an unwanted double post! :D

    JA era is my favourite time for SW fanfics and, fortunately, there are some very good ones out there. I think I've run out of new ones to read though (apart from the obvious) so I may end up knowing some of them by heart!
  3. benknobi1 Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 12, 2002
    star 6
    Siri would know...[face_mischief]
  4. hlc88 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 4
    @benknobi1 @Valairy Scot @Eryndil

    Thank you for the help! Hopefully I'll be able to use the material well and maybe add a bit more depth... I really want to portray Qui-Gon's and Obi-Wan's relationship as being very close by the time of TPM!

    Long, long time ago I did used to own both the JA and JQ books... then I sold them... because I grew away from Star Wars... Which was probably a silly thing to do admittedly. Still I never actually thought that I'd return to this fandom! I'm glad I did though!
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  5. roguegirl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 29, 2001
    star 4
    i still say that Quigon was rather unfair to Obiwan.he made lots of excuses about not taking Obiwan as his apprentice,but he was gung- ho into taking Anakin.so who went to the dark side? certainly not Obiwan.
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  6. Jedi Master Kenobiwan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2011
    star 5
    Wasn't that that Qui-Gon took Obi-Wan as his apprentice after the event on Bandomeer? After a fight with Xanatos or something like that. Why then? Is it because that it was then Qui-Gon realize how the true Obi-Wan is?
  7. Jedi Master Kenobiwan Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 8, 2011
    star 5
    Maybe Qui-Gon thought that it would be cool to train "The Chosen One" [face_dunno] Just a guess.
  8. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    I think Qui-Gon felt that it was the will of the Force. Anyway, his experience with Xanatos put him off training Padawans but after Obi-Wan, he changed his mind. Obi has that affect, you know :)
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  9. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    According to JA, Qui-Gon was not open to listening to the Force, which wanted him to apprentice Obi-Wan. Due to this, Obi-Wan had some insecurities which lingered and helped lead him away from the Jedi on M/D. Qui-Gon then realized, like it or not, he was bound to Obi-Wan in ways beyond mere "teacher/student" and did care about the boy. He and Obi-Wan worked hard on reestablishing trust - a major issue for Qui-Gon. He told Tahl after deciding he did care for Obi-Wan that it might not be fair to take Obi-Wan back as a padawan "if he could not trust him."

    After they reconciled and Qui-Gon had forgiven Obi-Wan but not decided whether to take him back as his padawan, he cuttingly told Obi-Wan (about Xan) that he "understood betrayal" which Obi-Wan took personally. Qui-Gon didn't mean to sound so harsh or personal, and reflected "it was his own flaw...he could not take the leap to trust again..although he felt a connection to others beings, he was slow to trust them [editorial comment: contradicted by who he chooses to trust in those very books]...once his trust was given, it was solid. When it shattered, he was at a loss as to how to refashion it again."

    All in all, with some prodding from Tahl, they reconciled fully.

    Now we leave JA for fan speculation - he was able to trust and like Anakin from the beginning because of Obi-Wan - he had grown as a man. And so he could extend to Anakin what he had been unable to give Obi-Wan at the beginning of their relationship (and coincidentally, what he had given Xan all along until Telos).

    So - Anakin is Obi-Wan's fault! :p

    There's also some thought that Qui-Gon was besotted enough with the prophecy of the Chosen One that he was quick to grab onto what he saw as the embodiment of it. I do believe there was at least an element of truth to this as he did refer to Anakin as "the Chosen One, you must see it" to the Council rather than focusing on Anakin, the individual, although some allowance must be given for the circumstances.

    I wonder if subconsciously Qui-Gon wanted the "chance" he didn't have with Obi-Wan, to start out right from the beginning. Knowing his mother Shmi may have also influenced him, as did the fact they were slaves - all things that would stir his compassion.

    Another factor I think is overlooked is that Anakin was a civilian - he didn't behave as Jedi children and Qui-Gon was a bit enchanted by his youthful enthusiasm. Having no need to curb his personality, he was amused. Had he survived to train Anakin, I think over time he would have asserted the same discipline as he did on Obi-Wan (unless he indulged him as he did Xan) although I suspect Anakin would have affected him to a "softer discipline" over time. All padawan and masters have some affect on the other.
    serendipityaey, obimom and benknobi1 like this.
  10. obimom Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2010
    star 4
    Very true...nice summary...:)
  11. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Kind of a shame that in order to start off right with Anakin in a sort of amends to how he started off with Obi-Wan, he "slighted" Obi-Wan by pushing him away for Anakin.

    Now - it's of course very possible he truly did think Obi-Wan was ready for the trials and had neglected to say so, making his timing extremely poor.

    But his "he is capable" is not very supportive of the man who he seemingly was eager to push forward to make room for Anakin. Heck, even a "he is more than capable" would have been better.

    And since the script read that Obi-Wan was angered in response (it came across as hurt in the movies to me), it's quite possible that Obi-Wan's anger and breach of protocol to declare himself ready (to loyally support his master? or in actual belief? or both?) is what prompted Yoda's retort. If he was angered he was not in command of himself and thus not ready.

    Eh - what a series of posts we could make on this subject.
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  12. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    If that was what Yoda had in mind, it does seem a bit harsh as even masters seem to get moments of anger. Obi-Wan didn't act on any anger he may have felt.

    I tend to think that Qui-Gon did believe that Obi was ready for the Trials. Obi-Wan obviously read it that way as he told Qui later that he was grateful he thought he was ready. And, given that he defeated Maul and was knighted not long afterwards, it seems that he must have been ready!

    I guess I'm easier on Qui-Gon than some people are with this. I never saw his behaviour as a desire to be the 'Chosen One's master' or to have a 'better Padawan'. He didn't say anything about training Anakin himself until the Council made it clear that they would not have him trained. He's obviously convinced that Anakin is the Chosen One and must be trained, so he does 'what he must', regardless of any consequences. It seems typical of Qui (by the time of TPM) to follow what he thinks is the will of the Force no matter what anyone else thinks.

    I agree on both of these. With regard to JA, Obi does seem to be the main reason for Qui's 'change of heart'

    Bad experience with Xan = I never want another Padawan
    Good experience with Obi = OK, so maybe I like having a Padawan! Obi is enough to bring anyone round :D
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  13. obimom Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2010
    star 4
    I like your take on Qui-Gon's motives for taking Anakin. But I also see the hurt on Obi-Wan's face when Qui-Gon first blurts out his taking Anakin as his padawan.

    Obi-Wan did quickly recover and asserted his own readiness to be knighted..but that may have been partly to back up Qui-gon..you know...loyal to the end, but he was still hurt.

    That little look that passed between them told the whole story to me.
  14. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Oh yes, it makes sense that Obi-Wan was hurt (and taken aback). He wasn't expecting his master to claim the little rugrat as his Padawan and it must have been both shocking and somewhat distressing. He did very well not to react more than he did.

    I don't think Qui-Gon meant it to have that effect though - I rather suspect that he just acted as he felt he was being guided. Qui is putting what he feels is 'right' before the needs of his Padawan (as he does later on too). Oddly, that fits in with the Jedi philosophy, but his ideas of what is 'right' doesn't tend to agree with those of the other Jedi!
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  15. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Speaking of "that look" - just how do you fully explain it? I really can't decipher it to a degree that satisfies me. Qui-Gon doesn't exactly look remorseful, or sorry - and yet not really "be quiet like a good boy" either.

    I know I originally took Obi-Wan's "I am ready" as a sign of support of his master, regardless of his personal feelings (and to possibly cover up his hurt and/or anger).

    Ah, Erynndil, saw your post after I posted. I agree, but whether Qui-Gon acted appropriately as a Jedi or not is the issue (to me). It's his absolute lack of tact. He could have conveyed through facial expression or body language (later, Obi-Wan - sorry but now's not the time) or added another sentence or two ("He is capable and I would have recommended him before this but..."), but instead he shoots him this inscrutable look which I cannot decipher. There's really no hint of apology or "later" in it at all.
    Last edited by Valairy Scot, Mar 2, 2013
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  16. ruth baulding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    That look is one of the toughest bits of that scene to understand. I always interpreted QUi-Gon's "I take Anakin as my Padawan learner" to be a decision made at that very moment, on the spur of the moment, whatever - without warning and without at all thinking through the effects. Obi-Wan's face in the movie is shocked/hurt. (Though how shocked could he be? He had just said to Qui-Gon on the balcony, "dont' defy the Council - not /again/" -- and Qui-Gon says to him "I will do what I must") I think QUi-Gon's look is little more than "I told you I would do whatever I must." without apology or censure - it's just a "this is how it is, Obi-Wan." I wish we got to hear the rest of the subsequent conversation that ends "... it's not disrespect, master; it's the truth, etc etc."
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  17. obimom Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2010
    star 4
    I"m going to ponder that look for awhile...I'll be back. (trying my hand at homemade Spanish rice...[face_praying]
  18. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Hey, that makes sense, actually. "Grow up, Obi-Wan, I as much as said I'd do what I have to do regardless of who it hurts." :D

    Actually, one of my old fanfics (hmm, published or not I don't know) had this scene...in fact, I think unpublished.
  19. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    This is similar to my interpretation. Obviously Obi-Wan is shocked, in spite of the vague 'warning' that Qui-Gon would do what he 'must' (also Obi must be used to Qui's ways by now, but I guess this is far beyond anything he has done before). However - and this may not be a popular interpretation - I also think that as a 25 year old man, brought up in the Jedi Order, Obi would not be suffering from an overwhelming feeling of rejection. It's not actually the same as a child being abandoned by its parent. I suspect that his concerns about Anakin ('he is dangerous') and worries about his master defying the Council also factor into his reaction.

    You are probably correct. Qui-Gon does not appear to be the kind of person who apologises for doing what he believes to be right. He seems to be like someone who is totally dedicated to a cause, to the exclusion of everything else (other people's opinions, feelings etc - or his own feelings and wishes). We see the same thing when he is dying - it's like 'yes, I'm dying, but that's not important - the cause must go on'. I think this is his state of mind by the end of TPM. And is this what enables him to become a Force Ghost?

    It comes across as hard and unfeeling, but you know how it goes - 'There is no emotion' etc. I think that Obi-Wan would understand this, even while he was feeling the effects of it. Now, some people say that Obi didn't show enough emotion to Anakin and that Qui-Gon would have been more affectionate, but during AOTC and ROTS Obi seems to be much more influenced by emotions than Qui is in TPM.
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  20. ruth baulding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    Oh ho! ANother unpublished manuscript!!! Let's have it :D
  21. serendipityaey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2004
    star 4
    I think it does come up multiple times and with other Jedi Masters as well, this idea that they will do what they must - and often comes across with very little tact or consideration. I feel like their reason is in that moment the Force, very strongly, told them what exactly it was to be done and so for them it is clearly the only path and especially when dealing with other Jedi (who should/would be able to understand?) they're expected to take it for what it is and trust that it's simply the way of the Force and what must be done.

    I do think, like in this case, it causes a disconnect, and a disregard for simple feelings that is unnecessary. As you say, Val, some very small change in wording could've gone a long long way. But I feel like this comes up over and over.
    laloga and Eryndil like this.
  22. ruth baulding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    I very much agree about a nearly-Knighted Jedi not being so self-centered. If there is shock, it's "holy cow, he did not just do that and drag me into it by extension - the boy is dangerous - I told him not to do this and he ignored my good advice - he never listens to me - this is not good - " etc. Not that there isn't room for some personal affront but it woudln't be the central issue there. And then the subsequent "I am ready" might be more of a "hell yes, I'm done with him and his definace and stubborness." Especially after the subtle dig "he is headstrong and has much to learn of the living Force - " ie, shut up Obi-Wan, you can disagree with this decision to train Anakin but you don't "get it" the way I do, you are siding with /them/ against me, or against the Force itself here. I -we-the Force will do what must be done whether or not you agree, cooperate, etc. THe scene is ripe territory for interpretation, that's for sure.
    Agreed too - Obi Wan is hardly "unemotional" around Anakin. Not sure where that comes from...?
    Valairy Scot likes this.
  23. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Of course, there is also this...

    [IMG]

    Given Qui-Gon's apparently obsessive focus on the prophecy at this point, I like to think that this gesture indicates a true affection towards Obi-Wan. And if anyone says otherwise, I shall be putting my fingers in my ears and going 'lalalalala I can't hear you' to preserve the fluffy feelings :D
  24. ruth baulding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    Yes, definitely a culture where you are expected to have a pretty thick skin, for better or for worse.... among themselves, at least in Council, the Jedi are fairly (painfully, even?) blunt?
  25. ruth baulding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    I love that bit. Without it, the whole scene and many of those preceding would have a different valence entirely.