Obi-Wan Kenobi: v4 Fan Club a/k/a Appreciation Society

Discussion in 'Star Wars Community' started by Valairy Scot, Sep 4, 2012.

  1. serendipityaey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2004
    star 4
    I hate the characterization of Yoda in the beginning of WS as well. Ugh. I also think it's okay to grieve, it's an important process! But one must then move on and let go. Everyone should strive for this
  2. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Yeah, I really like Wild Space but there were a couple of bits where I just went "uh, no..." That was one of them. At least she showed that Yoda was fond of Obi-Wan too, which I think is tru canon!

    On the subject of the Jedi, Buddhism and love, I just found this (longish) article while surfin' the net: http://moonpointer.com/new/2009/06/how-should-a-jedi-love/ I think it has some interesting points.

    I don't remember any Jedi saying in the movies that love was forbidden, as some people seem to think. Obi-Wan's reaction to Qui-Gon's death certainly suggests to me that he loved his master and that he experienced grief. It was how he dealt with those emotions that mattered. Definitely the ultimate Jedi! :)
  3. ruth baulding Jedi Grand Master

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    Sep 3, 2012
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    "No attachments" very hard to really pin down, I agree. In grad school I spent an entire year studying (trying to study!!) Buddhist philosophy with a practicing monk from SF who taught at Berkeley as adjunct (histry of religion, but he was dedicated, ie. believed it to his core) -- I really agree with what Val said about delving into the eastern philosophy for some "sense" of the Jedi - I think GL definitely had Buddhist elements in mind, however vaguely (after all he got it all filtered through Joseph Campbell and that's a whole other discussion) So when doing fan-fictiony things I always think back to that year spent poring over translated mantras and trying to wrap my head around Hinayana and Mahayana ideals. It took some serious paradigm shifting to get into this teacher's head space.
    Now mind you, when I challenged about myself (I had my first baby at the time) he would always say that relationships based on self-abnegation COULD be a legitimate dharma, so he was a softie ;)
    Anyway, not to be abstruse but I really found that adopting some of his vocabulary and ideas helps flesh out what the Jedi "position" might be... it can definitely run contrary to instinct in places!
  4. ruth baulding Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 3
    I think the only place love is mentioned specifically was in one of the Episode II /trailers/ - I'm not kidding - the tag line was "A Jedi shall know not anger, nor hate.... nor love" - dramatic pan sweep to Anakin and Padme kissing, etc..

    And the reaction to Qui-Gon's death is obviously one of love. In fact, it looks like attachemtn if you squint. Sobbing "no" over somebody as they die in your arms is not quite serene acceptance.... but Obi-Wan certainly cast in a heroic role. The question is whether that apparent departure form the ideal makes him "imperfect" or better than the ideal itself - I mean, Anakin's story also is a kind of imbedded critique of the Order's stance, AS WELL as Anakin's own failings. I thnk the ambiguity here fules a lot of the (good) fascination with a "love" interest or story for Obi-Wan. Take away Anakin's flaws, and what does a good man, and a good Jedi, do in the face of the ultimate challenge to the human heart? Canon leans toward tragic renuniciation, but fandom doesn't. It's fascinating
  5. serendipityaey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2004
    star 4
    Canon, largely, is at it's core designed for broad entertainment mediums - and to some (a lot?) extent for younger audiences - which lends itself entirely to (over) dramatic storylines meant to invoke (manipulate) the emotions of the viewer/reader the quickest, easiest way possible - and in very black and white terms for younger audiences to understand more easily instead of telling more depth-ful, shades of grey, realistic struggles of accepting, overcoming, dealing with, enjoying and regretting all the facets of being a Jedi and being human, having needs and having discipline - all at the same time - taking on those challenges and doing okay some days and not okay the next, succeeding and failing and learning and instructing and all. Only my happy, humble opinion - but a major 'failing' of canon of which I abhor (that particular failing not all of canon).

    My understanding is that George Lucas seems to clearly have touched on eastern religions; but has also made it clear that the Jedi were not supposed to be, or ordered to be, monks, although I'm sure some were like that.
    Last edited by serendipityaey, Jan 29, 2013
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  6. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 18, 2012
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    Funny thing is (for me anyway), I'm not a Buddhist but a lot of what I read about it fits in with my natural inclinations, even when some of it rubs up against my 'official' beliefs. And the Jedi always struck me as having similarities to Buddhist philosophy, so I didn't have a problem with it. Of course, a lot of people aren't familiar with Buddhism.

    Yeah, that tag line has a lot to answer for!

    I think that, throughout history, the struggle to reach the ideal has always been considered more 'heroic' than the actual attainment of such an ideal. After all, if you find it easy to adhere to all the Jedi principles then you aren't really 'achieving' anything. I don't think any of the Jedi found it that easy anyway - even Yoda who had nine centuries to get the hang of it.

    That's why, although the Code, the 'philosophy' and all the trappings of the Jedi Order are an interesting subject to explore, it is the interactions of the individual Jedi with that philosophy that are truly fascinating. The path of a Jedi is a rocky one with many obstacles and challenges - just as well, or there would be a lot less fanfiction!
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  7. serendipityaey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2004
    star 4
    "Obi-Wan, love... Your - 'attachment' is showing..." ;):p

    The 'departure' from the ideal is what makes him human, and real, and relatable. Every day after that, every reach for 'better' and 'acceptance', every attempt at truly letting go is what makes him a Jedi, and a darn good one. But I don't think they have to contradict each other. I don't think anyone is meant to achieve this perfect state where they just float on through all possible challenges, but rather work at it every day, like any commitment. From what I can tell a Jedi's day to day life and duty is intrinsically too complicated and broad with too many expectations (as opposed to a monk's) for the Order to expect the ideal to be a rule, a must, for each of them.

    I do remember that ad, the 'shall not know...' and it's a prime example to me of *not* thought out canon, but an attempt to manipulate a broad audience - it's a tag line, designed for a completely different purpose than to add depth and reason to the mythology.
    Last edited by serendipityaey, Jan 29, 2013
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  8. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Think of Voyage of Temptation when Obi-Wan tells Anakin that Yoda always forgets to mention the "undercurrent of remorse" that sometimes follows in the wake of certain actions (in that case, leaving Satine & Mandalore for "duty" although I have to say what did Anakin think Obi-Wan should have done if he wanted to remain a Jedi - disobey and stay with Satine?).

    This KM idea in the early (most noticeable) chapters of Wild Space that one does NOT care about feelings, about others is too chilling to be even somewhat realistic. You don't care that your teacher/father-figure is dying in front of you? I call bull. IMHO the "Jedi" behavior would be concern, sorrow and grief and IF Obi-Wan had died, the slow release of sorrow and grief over time, culminating in an appreciation for the time one had because truthfully, one cannot hold onto one's friends, teachers, lovers...all in life is impermanent and in trying to make them permanent you transform them and yourself into something unrecognizable.

    Going along with those early chapters and view of Yoda, Obi-Wan is all but killing himself trying to "appear" to be the Jedi he is "expected to be" and clearly isn't. He's sublimating himself to this "ideal" and I don't think that's really true of the character. He tries to live up to it, yes, but not at the cost of half-killing himself - he internalizes it.
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  9. serendipityaey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2004
    star 4
    Very well said Val.

    And a nice call back to Voyage. In character I think - there would be natural remorse that things couldn't just work out especially with Obi and her being young before and emotions running high. From what I can tell though Satine wanted a level of commitment, she would've wanted him to stay, and neither would be free to entertain that idea at all. Satine seemed to want him to be something he was not, and continued to press this and that crosses over into a infatuation/romantic love that isn't healthy. I think while Obi would always regret having to hurt her and would care about her, he would also see this and know it wouldn't work, nor would it be okay.
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  10. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

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    Sep 16, 2005
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    Yeah, I see Satine and Obi-Wan in positions that would never allow them to be together and happy. If they "could" be together and separate at the same time, possibly, but Obi-Wan is too vested in being a Jedi to be just a husband/potential father and Satine was too vested in reuniting her people and fostering peace to be able to wave a cheery good-bye to Obi-Wan when Jedi duty pulled him away.

    Or, to back off that slightly, Obi-Wan might have been largely happy, but a bit remorseful at what he gave up with an "undercurrent of regret" that he was not able to be "what" he was although he was "who" he wanted to be.

    Does that make sense?
  11. serendipityaey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2004
    star 4
    Obi-Wan might have been happy as just a husband/father? Or Obi-Wan was happy as a Jedi, but still remorseful at what he gave up?
  12. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    I always have trouble with the Satine storyline (possibly because I knew the Siri story first) - it seems to have come out of nowhere and Obi acts rather OOC, compared to how his character has been established up to that point. In that kind of situation (as we saw with Siri), there was no happy outcome - I don't see him leaving the Jedi without massive and damaging repercussions for him.

    With regard to KM's portrayal of Yoda in Wild Space, he is unrealistically harsh in the early chapters. Unfortunately, this makes him seem a bit hypocritical later on, when he is concerned about Obi. Still, it's only a minor niggle for me.
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  13. serendipityaey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2004
    star 4
    I think in general Obi-Wan could've been very happy as a father and husband and... what's it called? A consort? And he might've actually helped Satine run Mandalore well but being a Jedi is the very fabric of who he is and not something he could give up (without a ton of loss). It would be like giving up his right arm. On the surface, their duty kept them apart and always would no matter what their personalities, but I feel it runs far deeper than that - Satine's unhappiness with the situation stems, again, from her wishing Obi was something he's not - wishing he could conform and sacrifice so as to fit into her life and love her. So even without duty, I don't think they would work at all - because a person can never just be exactly what you want them to be. And maybe young Obi wouldn't see this, but I think older Obi would see it clearly. I think the character of Satine is really interesting and I enjoy seeing what they do with her, but I don't think she's a good match for Obi and I think he would know this, but still do his best not to hurt her and care for her as a friend.

    Despite all that, I do think he cares for her, and I do think it's in character for him to be remorseful that he can't be everything everyone needs to everyone. I think he wished he could make her happy, or could've.

    I think were Obi to have left the Order to stay on Mandalore solely, I think in the end he would've been more than remorseful, and I don't think it could work - I just feel he was meant to be a Jedi very much, to help as many people as possible.
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  14. serendipityaey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2004
    star 4
    This is all highly distracting me from posting my chapter! Running out of time!
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  15. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    See the next bit I quoted - it says better than I what I was attempting to say: in short, Obi-Wan the man might well be happy as a clam being a husband/dad but he would also miss something that was at his very core and always feel that a part of him was missing.

    ^:)^=D=

    Exactly. Well said. Wish I could put it as well as you did. Brilliant post.
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  16. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
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    When it comes down to it, being a Jedi is (supposed to be) a life of service and self-denial. Your time is spent either learning how to do your duty, practicing how to do your duty, or actually doing your duty. It simply doesn't fit with any real personal life, especially romantic relationships.

    Of course, this is why people say that the PT Jedi Order is wrong and the OT Order had it right, but it's another thing that depends on your point of view. If you believe that the most important thing is to follow the will of the Force, then your own needs and wishes become irrelevant. Anything that distracts from doing your duty must be removed. It's incredibly strict but it has its basis in human history.
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  17. serendipityaey Force Ghost

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    Jan 24, 2004
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    Only building off your ideas!
  18. serendipityaey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2004
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    Personally, I don't agree with this, and taglines aside, I don't see evidence that this level of stricture was required of the Jedi based on what's in the movies or what GL has said. Again, I feel their life (as an active Jedi) was too complicated by nature to enforce or require this.

    Although I do feel their primary priority is self-less service, I feel there's always room to be human as well, even if only a little sliver of it. Relationships and positive interactions are essential to overall well-being. I find it very unlikely and hard to come by that a personal romantic relationship would/could happen but definitely not impossible. Just to explore the idea and try to learn more myself about what i think non-attachment and the jedi path is all about I've put a ton, ton, of time and thought, more than 10 years of time and thought into exploring and figuring out what could be one possibility of that rare circumstance might be where it could work :)
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  19. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Key word of course, is the "you" - the Jedi's choice. In Anakin's case, he chose to combine a personal life with a Jedi's life because to him the most important thing was to have both (and yet he was not satisfied with what he had and focused on what he had not enough of).

    I think a LOT of fans just can't comprehend this universe with a Force and an order dedicated to serving it, even at the cost of self. Most folks can't understand in THIS world folks who cloister themselves for religious reasons, either.

    That does bring up an interesting point for discussion: there is the view as you express - Jedi give up everything self-based for the good & the will of the Force, to serve others. They give up family, they give up comforts, they give up their very selves.

    Then add in the more middling view of the above, with the addition that many Jedi are not satisfied with the life, even if accepting of it.

    Then swing more to the view that a Jedi can serve others but doesn't have to be totally selfless - that one can serve AND one can find room and time for self. (Ash, is this you? ;))

    Does your "view" swing with the fanfic you're writing, or does it control the fanfic?

    In my case, my views are not so set in stone that I can't adapt my views to what story my muse directs or I consciously will to happen. Perhaps that is because we are not Jedi, there is no Force for us and so we're working off conceptualizations more than realities.

    Thoughts?
  20. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    Hmm, I think this is part of why I prefer the Siri story - she has a better understanding of what it means to be a Jedi. There's a point where they are discussing what to do about their feelings and she says that she won't let him leave the Jedi for her as she knows what it cost him before (Melida/Daan).

    Actually, I see that Qui-Gon does say "love is forbidden between the Jedi" in that book. I guess that's partly the author's interpretation again, but I also suspect that it means in this particular context (ie as a synonym for attachment).
  21. Valairy Scot Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 16, 2005
    star 5
    Obi & Siri were what age? Teenagers, anyway in that book and at that age, it would have been tough for them to balance being a Jedi, training for knighthood, and handling first love.

    I don't particularly care how Qui-Gon handled it, or brought in Yoda so soon, but I think the "confrontation" was inevitable alhought it could have been handled better.

    As adults, I think Siri and Obi-Wan could balance Jedi with the other far better than as teenagers.
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  22. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 18, 2012
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    Well, yeah - that's pretty much why I added 'supposed to be' in there! I think it's another of these lofty 'ideals' that don't actually reflect the reality but that provide a goal to work towards (even if it is an unachievable one). The Jedi Order seems to have held up these ideals as an example of the 'perfect Jedi' without expecting individual Jedi to be 'perfect'. Certainly, the whole 'attachment rule' fits into that ideal and they do seem to enforce that one. On the other hand, finding a way for a Jedi to experience a loving (romantic) relationship without falling foul of that rule is definitely a worthwhile undertaking ;)
    Last edited by Eryndil, Jan 29, 2013
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  23. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

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    Dec 18, 2012
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    Yes, I think that the latter part of that story does suggest that they may have been able to deal with it as adults. Of course, then she goes and dies...
  24. Eryndil Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 18, 2012
    star 3
    For me, I try to find a balance between what I 'see' in the movies (and books) and how I would like it to be! I love Siriwan stories, for instance, but I know what Jude Watson said in 'Secrets' so I end up with a kind of cognitive dissonance there. In the end, you kind of have to say 'stuff the canon, I like this story so I'm going with it.'

    So far, I am unable to write AUs, even if I would like to. I also find the extreme views very interesting to explore as a concept so this is what I focus on (except with parodies). I'm in the middle of writing a fanfic about sacrifice at the moment -it's very angsty of course. I would like to write something happier for Obi-Wan but I'm strangely drawn to the whole 'tragic martyr' image right now [face_worried]
  25. serendipityaey Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 24, 2004
    star 4
    Happy! Write Happy next! I can give you Happy vibes!! :D:D:D
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