Obi-Wan/ Luke parallel that IMO proves Yoda was wrong

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by i_dont_know, Oct 9, 2005.

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  1. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    Revenge of the Sith:
    Obi-Wan:
    Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin.
    Yoda:
    To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not.
    Obi-Wan:
    He is like my brother. I cannot do it.
    Yoda:
    Twisted by the darkside, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained... gone he is. Consumed by Darth Vader.
    Obi-Wan:
    I do not know where the Emperor has sent him. I don't know where to look.
    Yoda:
    Use your feelings Obi-Wan, and find him you will.

    Return of the Jedi:
    Luke:
    There is still good in him.
    Obi-Wan:
    He's more machine now, than man. Twisted, and evil.
    Luke:
    I can't do it Ben.
    Obi-Wan:
    You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again.
    Luke:
    I can't kill my own father.
    Obi-Wan:
    Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.


    I have repeatedly said that Yoda was wrong to claim Anakin was already totally consumed.
    When I noticed how similar Yoda's instruction was to ROTJ Obi-Wan's, I realised that it fits in perfectly with my theory that Yoda was wrong in this Ep3 scene.
    The similarity in he and Obi-Wan instructions backs up my point really strongly.
    Obi-Wan also said Anakin was gone, but Luke knew otherwise. Yoda said Anakin was gone, but we know he is still partly there until the second-last Vader scene in the movie.

    I think Anakin could (possibly) have returned in Episode 3 if Yoda hadn't given Obi-Wan this advice.
  2. Evil_Imp Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Aug 18, 2005
    star 1
    Yes ,ROTS Yoda was wrong to believe Anakin was lost. but that was the Point. It's not till many years later When Vader's son will see the Good and Conflict in him that the Jedi still do not . proving that in the OT , Luke becomes even more enlightened than the Jedi are . as for Anakin coming back in ROTS . by the time he and ObiWan face off , Anakin has already tried to kill Padme , and has destroyed the Jedi Order. he was too far gone at this point. that will change when he meets Luke , later .
  3. starkiller63 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2005
    star 1
    That is very interesting. I think the only thing that allowed Anakin to free himself from the clutches of the darkside was to see his son stand up to the emporer. It gave him the courage to do so as well. IMHO.

    I do like your idea though.
  4. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Obi-wan gave up on Anakin because he couldn't sense the good in him. He wanted to believe that there was good in him, but he could not find it. Luke could because he felt it on Bespin, which stems back to the death of Padme all those years ago. Anakin had grown to hate Obi-wan, which is why all the Jedi Master could feel was anger and hate. But Luke could feel the internal struggle that Vader was dealing with, it just took a while to realize that's what it was.
  5. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    you are kind of agreeing with me and contradicting me at the the same time.
    My point is that Anakin was not yet lost at the time Yoda had this conversation with Obi-Wan.
    You mention that Anakin has already tried to kill Padme. This is indirectly a result of the very conversation I posted! That would never have happened if Obi-Wan hadn't snuck aboard Padme's ship, on Yoda's advice - "Use your feelings, and find him you will."
    Besides, I don't think there is proof Anakin was actually trying to kill her.


    Ah, but this is 20 years later, and Vader needed something much more intense to jolt him back by then. Good point though.

    Thanx :)
  6. DS_Emp_Viper Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 30, 2001
    star 4
    I agree, but then again Yoda and Obi-Wan made a lot of controversial decisions throughout the PT.
  7. EwokThatCried Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 22, 2003
    star 4
    These scenes are so similar and it is clear that no one but Luke considers the small sliver of good in Vader by the time of ROTJ.

    Yoda says he is consumed in ROTS. Obi-Wan says he is destroyed. They don't believe it's Anakin anymore at all.

    Now, consider if Obi-Wan had not followed Padme.

    Padme and Anakin were arguing and she was trying to convince Anakin to come away with her... but he would not. When Padme withdrew, she made the choice not to go with Anakin.

    Had she turned her back and attempted to leave, do you really think he would have let her go? Or would he still think she betrayed him?

    I believe he would have still harmed her in a fury because he is totally possessive at this point and would never let her go.

    She would have been enslaved and the twins would have been turned over to the Emperor.

    Obi-Wan saved the twins.
  8. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    Nice post. But I doubt if Anakin would have harmed her had Obi-Wan not been there. The thought of betrayal, feelings of jealousy had taken a hold of him and without Obi-Wan being there, without Anakin spotting him, I doubt if he would have Force choked her. I can't see him just forcing him to be with her if she didn't want him anymore.

    As far as Yoda goes, I think he made an incorrect assumption. After Anakin killing Jedi, after seeing him bow down to this Dark Lord of the Sith, there's no reason for Kenobi and Yoda to think that Anakin's spirit was still intact. Luke was able to think it because he felt good in Vader. Leia even ask Luke why oh why must he confront Vader and Luke tells her why.
  9. Skillwalker Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2005
    star 2
    Thats a very good post which sums up why Ben could not see the good still in him and why Luke could.

    It is why Luke had to be the one to face vader and not Ben or yoda. Vader failed due to his love of Padme, equally it is love for his son that he succeeds
  10. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Thing is, Yoda is right, at that point in ROTS, as not even Padame can bring him back. Or Obi-wan, his oldest most trusted friend. And i doubt Yoda would have faired much better. It's only Luke that can bring Anakin back, cos he see's in him the person he once was, plus he see's a connection to his familly. Familly is the one thing Anakin found hardest to let go of, familly and Love. Thats why Palps is so pleased when he tells anakin Padame is dead, cos in his eyes there is now no redemtion for Anakin cos everything Anakin loved and cared about is gone, he will forever be Darth Vader.

    I dont believe anyone would have turned Anakin/Vader back to the good side except Luke (or Leia has she been a Jedi) and for this reason Yoda was right in ROTS. IMO
  11. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    But I don't think Yoda thought anyone could bring him back, including his future son. Perhaps Yoda was correct that no one at that time could save Anakin, but he doesn't seem to believe there is ever hope of Anakin returning.


    Yeah
    What Sidious does in that scene is so totally evil, because he knows that telling Anakin this will "kill" what remains of him.
    Anakin previously confided in Sidious about this very point:
    "Just help me save Padme's life. I can't live without her."
    Anakin meant it metaphorically, but at the end of the movie it is proven to be absolutely true.
  12. mjerome3 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 11, 2000
    star 6
    Yes, you're absolutely right. And then Sidious smiles at the very end. He knows Anakin has no soul at this point, or barely has one. He knows Anakin is a slave to the dark side now and belongs to him.
  13. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4

    Yeah agreed, thats what Palps wants, an obibient servent with no ties to his former life, no chance of turning back and no one who can turn him. Thats why The Emporer fears Luke so much.

    "There is a great disterbance in the force"
    "I have felt it"
    "We have a new enemy, Luke Skywalker. He could destroy us"
    "He's just a boy, Obi-wan can no longer help him"
    "The Son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi"

    Palps does'nt think Luke is powerful enough to destroy him, thats not what he fears. He fears what Luke represents to Vader. Here Palps should have ordered Vader to kill Luke, not turn him, but allas his sith greed gets the better of him.

    Vader and Palps both have the same plan, to turn Luke, have him destory the other guy and then rule the galaxy together. Thats why Vader suggests turning Luke, and Palps agree's. They know there can be only two, but Luke must kill the other for him to be turned to the darkside. Vader thinks Luke will chose him as he is his father, thats why he tells Luke the truth about himself. Palps thinks Luke is just like anakin and can be made to kill Vader through his hate of what Vader has become, thus turning Luke to the Darkside. Thats why Vader takes Luke to Palps, and why Palps wants Vader to bring Luke to him. Luke must choose to turn and strike either one of Vader or Palps down for this to happen.

    Episode 4 is'nt called A New Hope for nothing, up until that time there was no hope for the galaxy. Yoda was right, Anakin was lost and Vader now stood in his place. It was'nt until Luke matured and Obi-wan watched over him that they collectivly reaised Luke is their new hope. And that (IMO) is the only reason they send Luke to face Vader again in ROTJ. Not becasue they think Luke could kill him and the Emporer (i mean come on, Yoda got beaten by Palps, what hope has Luke got?) . . . No, it's cos Luke has made a connection with Vader after ESB, he's felt there is good in him, Luke has put the first chink in Vader's armour and now it is time to exploit that chink.

    On the bridge of the SD after the MF jumps into hyperspace and eludes Vader at the end of ESB you can tell Vader is genuinly upset. We see no facial expression under the musk but his posture tells us everything. He's sad, he's feeling emotion again, the good person he once was IS still alive, and he knows it.

    It is from this point on that there is finally hope of Anakins redemtion, but prior to this he was truely lost, and Yoda and Obi-wan were right.
  14. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    I agree with you, but I think we have a different opinion on when exactly Anakin was definitely lost. It doesn't matter that much to the grand scheme of it all.

    Yes, and I think it is very significant that Sidious uses the phrase "destroy us" here. It isn't that Luke could kill them (although this is probably what Vader thought he meant), it is that he can break the "bond" between Sidious and Vader.

    I'm very thankful he was greedy, it gave us a great saga :D

    Good explanation. I especially like the part about Sidious assuming Luke was just like Anakin. Watching ROTJ since Ep3 came out gives me the same impression. I think this was actually a large part of his downfall - he thought "he'll be as easy to turn as Anakin", and thus tried to turn Luke in almost exactly the same way. But this time he was too confident, and didn't bother with the whole "Palpatine" charade.
    "You, like your father... are now mine. Famous last words.


    I think he would have been more right if he said it after the duel :p

    I love that moment, and he was starting to feel emotion again, as you said. But IMO he doesn't know he is returning. He still denies that in Return of the Jedi.

    He was indeed lost after ROTS. But I still think Yoda pronounced it way too early.
  15. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Yeah, perhaps Yoda has never seen a Jedi return from the Darkside and therefore assumed Anakin could never come back. Right up until Lukes training on Degobah he still holds this to be true.

    "Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate you, consume you it will, as it did Obi-wans apprentice"

    So Yoda is still sticking to his guns all those years later. They held back telling Luke Vader was his father, but he rushed off and found out too early. In the eye's of Ben and Yoda this was a terrorbal mistake and Luke was'nt ready for this because they wanted Luke to kill him.
    But as it happened this was preobably the best thing that could of happened, becasue although Luke was reluctant to destroy Vader now, Vader was also becoming obsessed with getting Luke on his side which eventually led to Vader having to choose his son or his master, and we all know how it turned out. :0)
  16. THEFORCEROCKS Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 2004
    star 4
    Mjerome
    Nice post. But I doubt if Anakin would have harmed her had Obi-Wan not been there. The thought of betrayal, feelings of jealousy had taken a hold of him and without Obi-Wan being there, without Anakin spotting him, I doubt if he would have Force choked her. I can't see him just forcing him to be with her if she didn't want him anymore.
    />

    Dont be so sure Mjerome. He tried that same galactic stuff with Luke and yes he is more than able to hurt the people he loves. Padme was not going to be a part of his plan and Anakin was not going to Naboo to raise children so either she get in sync with him or its problems. What did he do to Luke?Chopped off his hand and told him dont let yourself be destroyed as Obi-Wan was.
    So yeah because he is filled with jealousy, rage and anger he could and would force choke Padme either on Mustafar or Coruscant. In fact the Visual Dictionary states "Darth Vader shows no remorse for force choking Padme or dueling his master to the death."/>/>
  17. mustardlyman Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 14, 2005
    star 1
    Of course Yoda was wrong. Vader fulfills the prophesy because as a father he loves his son. Something the Jedi know nothing about because they deny themselves this experience.
  18. rhonderoo Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 7, 2002
    star 9
    That's one of the nice things about ROTS. When Obi-Wan says, "He will not let me down" in ROTS, in effect it's true. He does fufill the prophecy, but it's twenty years later.
  19. ObiWan506 Former Head Admin

    Member Since:
    Aug 5, 2003
    star 7
    And in an ironic sort of way, instead of letting the Jedi down, Anakin let Sidious down .... down a reactor core!


    Ba-Dum-Crash!

    :p
  20. DarthSapient Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 2001
    star 10
    I believe both Obi-Wan and Yoda feel from the time of Anakin's turn until he actually saves Luke, that Vader could not be turned. Yoda says in RotS that he failed. It's not just that battle he failed, but in a greater sense the order.
  21. jedibri Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 19, 2000
    star 4
    I also don't think Yoda or Obi-Wan think Anakin can be redeemed.

    Yoda: "Destory the Sith we must!"

    Not redeem the Sith or Anakin/Vader.
  22. Hypernova Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 2
    One thing I do know.

    Had Obi-Wan gone to face Sidious instead of Anakin in ROTS, Mr Kenobi would have become one with the force a lot sooner than he expected.

    Much as I love Obi-Wan Kenobi, Sidious would murder him left, right and center.
  23. DARTH_FIRE Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    May 7, 2005
    I think Padme could have brought Anakin back if she had stayed on Corus****. Sidious would have tried to destroy her as he later tried to destroy Luke in ROTJ. This would have forced Anakin to kill Sidious.

    What was required here was a more subtle approach from Obi-wan and Yoda. Try and find Anakin's achilles heal. Problem was neither one of them could think in that way whereas Sidious could.
  24. Yodas_Got_Bed_Head Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2004
    star 2
    Excellent post. Like Darth Sinister posted earlier, it seems as if Yoda nor Obi-Wan could sense anything but Anakin's anger & hatred at this time...regardless if there was an ounce of good in him. As Yoda stated, "the darkside clouds everything." IMHO, I think from Yoda's point of view that Anakin is no more. However from view of characters like Padme (and later on Luke), they can still sense/feel the good in Anakin/Vader.
  25. yoshifett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2004
    star 5
    According to GL, Obi-Wan and Yoda were wrong about Anakin:

    "There's always this good in you. And the good part is saying 'what am I doing?'. Then the bad part kicks in and says 'I'm doing this for Padme, I'm doing this for the galaxy and so we can have a better life'. But the good part is always saying 'WHAT AM I DOING?!"

    --George Lucas to Hayden Christensen, Hyperspace webdoc.
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