Obi-Wan/ Luke parallel that IMO proves Yoda was wrong

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by i_dont_know, Oct 9, 2005.

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  1. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4
    I also don't think Yoda or Obi-Wan think Anakin can be redeemed.
    Yoda: "Destory the Sith we must!"
    Not redeem the Sith or Anakin/Vader.


    Redeeming Vader is what destroys the Sith. Luke couldn't have destroyed Palpatine.
    If Yoda and Ben wanted Vader dead, then why is the cave on Degobah a failure?
    I can't for the life of me remember who first posted this question to me
    on this board, but it completely changed my opinion about Yoda and Obi Wan's
    intent on Anakin.

    If it was a matter of Luke killing Vader, why not encourage Luke to kill Vader
    in the starship battle at Yavin IV?

    They knew that Luke confronting Vader would end up with Anakin's death, not
    that Luke would kill him. That Vader would take out the Emperor on top
    of that only proves that Anakin is the one of the prophecy.

    As I've often said, Anakin is both powerful and at one point, a Jedi,
    but is not a powerful Jedi until he casts the Emperor down the shaft.
  2. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    yes, but Yoda had no way of knowing that.

    That is a really good point, but I'm still not convinced. IMO The cave is a failure because Luke still feared Vader, not because he wanted to kill him. It isn't like Yoda would have asked him not to take his weapons if the real Vader was in there. Or maybe he would have, who knows.

    I don't get this question... when did Luke ever have the opportunity to kill Vader in ANH?

    This is just speculation.
    Although, your point about the Dagobah cave has me wondering about Yoda's motivations.
  3. TheCRZA Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 29, 2005
    star 4

    yes, but Yoda had no way of knowing that.

    Yoda and Ben knew that Anakin was the chosen one and that meant
    he and he alone was destined to destroy the sith. Since Anakin turned sith,
    his redemption would not only entail Palpatine's, but his own.


    That is a really good point, but I'm still not convinced. IMO The cave is a failure because Luke still feared Vader, not because he wanted to kill him. It isn't like Yoda would have asked him not to take his weapons if the real Vader was in there. Or maybe he would have, who knows.

    Why not? Luke becomes a Jedi by tossing his jedi weapon aside.
    Obi Wan gives him Anakin's lightsaber and Yoda teaches him not to use it.

    I don't get this question... when did Luke ever have the opportunity to kill Vader in ANH?

    During the battle of Yavin, Vader was behind Luke. Luke had the opportunity to take out the DS
    or pull out and engage Vader. Ben encouraged Luke to proceed with the DS.
    The focus was not on taking Vader out.

    This is just speculation.
    Although, your point about the Dagobah cave has me wondering about Yoda's motivations.


    I'm sorry, but most of my posts are speculatory in nature. If everything were
    set in stone and clear stated, these boards would be quiet boring.
    Yoda's motivation is to save and restore what is left of the Jedi. Teaching Luke
    how to kill Vader does not accomplish this. Teaching Luke not to kill Vader does.

    One of his last coherent instructions to Luke was "pass on what you have learned."
    It was a nice Jesus Christ to Peter "go forth and make disciples of all men" sort of goodbye. Peter becomes the first Pope.
    Luke restores the Jedi order. Nice.

    I don't think Luke is ever afraid of Vader. Not in the hangar bay of the DS in ANH.
    Not in the cave on Degobah. Not on Bespin. Not on Endor.
    Luke has to master his recklessness, not his fear. He has to master himself.
    Yoda tells him at the cave he only takes in what he has with him. He has aggression
    and a pretty good shot at becoming Vader, if he doesn't change.

    I'm not saying that Yoda and Ben knew that Anakin would be redeemed, but I am saying
    that they suspected that he could be. And remember, the darkside clouds their ablity
    to see the outcome, they only know that Luke must master himself to become a Jedi.
  4. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    But they didn't know for sure.

    Yoda:
    "A prophecy that misread, could have been."

    I know what you are saying here, and I do realise the importance of the Dagobah cave scene to the overall ending of the saga.

    but the cave scene you are talking about happens before the Luke/Obi-Wan conversation I posted at the start of this thread.

    Luke:
    "I can't kill my own father."
    Obi-Wan:
    "Then the Emperor has already won."

    I'm assuming that you feel this was just for Luke's benefit then?

    I think Obi-Wan just knew Luke's true path at that point. I don't think whether Vader should be killed has much bearing on this moment.

    I doubt Luke could have anyway. Luke would probably have to take out the two ships flanking him before taking on Vader.
    Even if he was match for Vader in a dogfight, why would he choose this over destroying the battle-station that was 30 seconds away from destroying the Rebel base?

    Teaching Luke not to kill, yes. But I think they made an exception for Vader and the Emperor.

    He looked afraid in the Dagobah cave. Look at his expression when the "Vader ghost" appears.
    By the end of the movie when he faces Vader for real that fear is gone.
    As Vader stated (not exact quote):

    "You have controlled your fear. Now release your anger. Only your hatred can destroy me."

    Perhaps

    [/quote]

    Of course :)
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