Obi-Wan once thought as you do...or did he?

Ramred, what do you mean?


Because Padme was right there, and he was afraid if he went at Anakin she would be hurt. But in reality, Anakin choked her anyway

That move on Anakin's part would have been the perfect excuse for him to leap into action. Not only does he not once Padme is unconscious he still doesn't move on Anakin until Anakin pulls his "you're either with me, or you're my enemy!" line. Even at that, Anakin made the first move.

 

I'll tell you what might have helped here.

If Lucas had left the following exchange in (it's in the novel, I believe, and may have been in the shooting script):

Obi Wan: The flaw of power is arrogance.
Anakin. You hesitate. The flaw of compassion.

Not only is this a great exchange, and not only would it have boosted the minimal verbal sparring of the duel, but it shows us how the two perceive each other, and firmly indicates that Anakin believes Obi Wan is holding back out of love for him, with him perceiving it to be a weakness. So, we are shown that Anakin sees that Obi Wan still loves him, and we are given a realistic context in which Anakin would state that.

 

Yes, I'm pretty sure I saw that in a script on the tbonz site. I would assume it's in the RotS novel as well, though I haven't read that novel so can't say. It would have been good to leave it in. It is a good exchange, and it mirrors nicely with the RotJ novel, which has Palpatine reflecting on how compassion has always been the "weak underbelly" of the Jedi. The Sith have no compassion and think it is pointless and weak, but of course, they are proved wrong in the end.

 

That's an interesting way to look at it. I never thought about it that way. Maybe he was thinking of Padme and her trying to dissuade him, and just used "Obi-Wan" as a metaphor, because saying Padme would have been too painful.

 

I loved those lines and agree it would have shown that Obi-Wan did care for him still. Obi-Wan could have killed him on the banks of Mustafar but he doesn't, true to his Jedi nature, he let the Force decide his fate.

 

Even though Obi-Wan never comes out at asks Anakin to come back to the light, he certainly seems to be sending out feelers. It his argument with Anakin, Anakin answers every one of Obi-Wan's jabs as a Sith. Obi-Wan is looking for some hint that Anakin isn't completely lost, but Anakin doesn't give him any. I think Obi-Wan was looking for an opening to try and bring Anakin back, but he was never given one.

 

That's certainly one way to interpret those scenes. For myself, I would have liked to see a bit more of Obi-Wan explicitly imploring Anakin to return. Given Obi-Wan's anguish over the whole thing, and his obvious reluctance to kill Anakin, such lines would have fit in perfectly.

 

But were Luke and Obi-Wan completely right in the end? Sometimes, it doesn't pay to be absolute.


Sorry but I don?t really understand that you meant by that. Could you explain please?

What was Obi-Wan and especial Luke not right about? That Anakin hade been a good man, that he let himself being mislead and forgotten that he was? In the end they was right their belief that Anakin hade been good saved the galaxy .

 

After wathcing ROTJ tonight, when Luke turns himself in and he and Vader are having their conversation, I do think it doesn't fit. Luke says "Come with me" which is more similar to Padme's "Come back" line from ROTS. I think the line needs to be changed. I still think Obi-Wan thought he could come back in ROTS but I can see why this line brings up questions. Vader also might say Obi-Wan because Luke didn't know his mother and Vader would have lost it if he mentions Padme, he was already struggling which is why he had the Stormtroopers take Luke away. I mean they were going to the same place but Vader looks deep in thought and has to almost keep himself up after their conversation especially since Luke says that his father is truly dead...that just rips your heart out

 

Obi-Wan (and Yoda, for that matter) was not right about Anakin being completely 'lost' to the darkside, with only Vader left. And Luke was wrong in assuming that 'saving' or 'redeeming' Vader/Anakin meant being able to "walk off into the sunset" with his father (iow, that it wouldn't have costed Anakin his life in order to fulfill his destiny).

 

I don't think Vader was talking about Obi Wan's thoughts of trying to turn him back to the light. I think Vader was talking about Obi Wan's thoughts and ideals as to the light side being more powerful than the dark. Thus trying to convince Luke that the 1. He cannot be turned back because the darkside is so powerful and 2. luke's ideals of the light side and darkside are wrong same as Obi Wan's.

 

"They stand for a moment, the Vader extinguishes the lightsaber.

LUKE: Come with me.

VADER: Obi-Wan once thought as you do."


Padme also says "Come with me. Help me raise our child. Leave everything behind while we still can!"

While OB1 does what he can to turn Anakin back, he doesn't use the words "Come with me."
Unfortunately, I believe this to be an oversight on GL's part. Clearly when Luke said "Come with me" Vader was remembering back to when someone else said those words, but it wasn't OB1. However, it would certainly have been rather jarring when ROTJ first came out to have Vader say "Your mother once thought as you do". We could always assume, since Vader was obsessed with OB1 from ANH - ROTJ, that Vader merely transferred Padme's words to OB1.

 

The whole 'Obi-wan once thought as you do' line was a little weird even before the PT as Ben and Yoda seem to be pushing Luke to just go and kill Vader in all the scenes leading up to that. Of course, back then we reconciled it by saying to ourselves, "Once upon a time, in the nice little imaginary backstories we've all created, Obi-wan DID feel it". Of course, the PT came and sort of didn't really decidedly make that clear.


As much as I really don't want Lucas fiddling anymore with the movies than he has, I think having JEJ come in re-record that line to say, "Your mother once thought as you did..." would be a nice touch. It ties the scene to the PT, it ties the scene to the previous "do you remember your mother?" scene, it hits on probably the critical moment in the Anakin-to-Vader descent and his subsequent change from loving his power to hating himself. All in all, it would increase the drama of the scene when the two trilogies are taken as a whole and it's small enough that it won't stand out as a sore thumb like the ESB shuttle line change.

 

I think what Vader means by the line "Obi Wan once thought as you do" is that Obi Wan like Luke feels they can bring Vader back through reason and plea bargaining. For Luke and Obi Wan it was about people not sides; atleast in Vader's mind. I think for Vader there is no going back, it's not a choice for him. He MUST obey his master. Also I think with the new films this line also lends to the idea that Anakin may not feel he made the wrong choice. Obi Wan and Luke plea with him but it falls on deaf ears because Anakin is lost. For him the greatest power is immortality of the flesh not the spirit. And when he remarks that "It is too late for me ,son" I think he's referring to his broken body and the loss of his wife, but now his son can master the great power and carry on the bloodline.

 

Sure, it could be all of these things mentioned above. But it could be quiet simple really.

"Obi Wan once thought as you do" - i.e. like a Jedi.

Its very possible that Vader is just saying that Luke thinks in the same way Obi Wan did about, well, everything. The next line - "you don't know the power of the dark side", could mean that Luke is clouded like Ben was in thinking that the evil can be defeated.

Another view links to the part where Obi Wan says to Anakin "You were the chosen one...". Vader could be saying "Obi wan used to have faith in me like you do...but the dark side is the true power and I can't walk away".

But these are just two other POV's. Its of course more than likely that its referring to the notion that Kenobi hadn't truly given up on Anakin in ROTS and the fact that he spent the time talking to him and trying to lecture him, which in turn proved, to Vader at least, that he was trying to turn him back - just like Luke is doing.

 

... Too bad George lucas doesnt clarify alllllll the questions we have about star wars lol. Actually, that'd be like talking to God about real life

 

Hee hee, another in depth thread on one line....

Full respect to everyone's opinion, but I never understand why we can't just fit the film lines around a slightly different interpretation to the story to our own. When I first saw this thread title, I just thought that this related to Obi-wan's dialogue on Mustafar. If he truly believed that Vader should be destroyed, as Yoda told him, what would be the point of all the dialogue? (Yes, I hear you cynics saying 'It'd be a boring fight!) Obi-wan would have just been on a killing mission if he really thought that Anakin was lost. Why would he bother trying to convince Anakin that he'd made the wrong decision? I see all the dialogue here as an example of how 'Obi-wan once thought as Luke did'....

 

"I'm very proud of you."
"He won't let me down. He never has."
This indicates that Obi-wan thinks plenty good of Anakin until the trouble starts.

 

- Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!
- From my point of view the Jedi are evil!
- Well, then you *are* lost!

Obi-Wan wouldn't try and reason with Anakin like this if he wasn't trying to, on some level, persuade him to come back. Just because he didn't use the exact words "come with me" doesn't mean that he didn't try. Unfortunatly, Anakin showed no signs of turning back.

It is only when Anakin says the Jedi are evil that Obi-Wan deems Anakin a lost cause. And even then is he hesitant to finish him off ("don't try it").

 

They should have James Earl Jones record "your mother" and put that over "Obi-Wan", since Padme clearly tried the 'come with me' bit.

 

Obi-1 did think that he could be saved. Anakin even accused him of 'lecturing' him. It's falls directly in line with how Luke was trying to turn him back before he was brought to the Emperor. Hence, Obi-1 and Luke did share the same thoughts about Vader being saved.

 

I tend to take a very flexible interpretation of Obi-Wan's words in ROTJ regarding killing Vader.He never directly says "Luke, you're going to have to kill your father for the good guys to win." He says that Luke has to confront him, which could mean a whole range of things.

As for him trying to turn Anakin back in ROTS, absolutely. I reckon people were expecting a rehash of Luke's attempts in ROTJ, which frankly is an overarching problem for how people perceive the prequels, but I digress.

Obi-Wan in ROTS is not Luke in ROTJ. Obi-Wan has been trained from birth to think of Sith as the enemy. The only things he ever has to say to Dooku is attempts to break down his confidence, and he says absolutely nothing to Maul. The only reason he acts differently with Vader is because Vader was once his best friend. But otherwise, the prequel Jedi response to Sith is to kill them, not turn them, as it's believed it's impossible.

Luke, on the other hand, has not had 40 years of Jedi dogma as his entire existence. Things are less absolute for him-I think Luke thinks like this:

My father was a good man, according to Obi-Wan.

Darth Vader is my father.

Therefore, Darth Vader must still be good somehow.

Even Yoda has changed his tune somewhat on Vader and the Emperor-"Only a fully trained Jedi Knight, with the Force as his ally, will defeat Vader and his Emperor."

Again, defeat does not necessarily mean kill.

 

I think Obi-Wan gave a cautious effort on Mustafar. If he really really thought Anakin was a Sith Lord beyond redemption, Padme was not getting off of the ship. He would not let a normal person try to reason with a Sith Lord. So he lets her talk to him and sees that an agreement is not going to be reached. Anakin starts CHOKING Padme. Obi-Wan screams to let her go. Hey, perhaps he was startled. He did let go. Let's see if he comes to his senses after choking Padme. "I have brought peace justice and security to my new Empire!" At this point, Obi-Wan doesn't now what to say....Anakin is obviously demented. "Your new Empire? Anakin, I serve the REPUBLIC, DEMOCRACY" he taunts him and tries to show him what a Jedi is and how far he went. "Either you are with me, or you are my enemy." Obi-Wan's tone of voice changes. He isn't yelling, he is sad that his friend is so far gone, "Only a Sith Deals in Absolutes" "Don't make me destroy you." Obi-Wan was starting to see this was inevitable. Still, he doesn't say "Oh I don't think so" he says "I will do what I must" as he pulls out his weapon, obviously still not thrilled about having to fight Anakin. In the novel, Anakin is pretty wild and out of control and presents many opportunities for Obi-Wan to score a killing/delimbing blow. There were three outcomes to the fight and only one truly was a victory - to bring Anakin back to the light. Killing Anakin (Or maiming him) is better than getting killed, but certainly not the desired outcome. Of course, Obi-Wan getting killed himself was the least desireable. Obi-Wan probably knew he could hold the defense for a long long time. Maybe if Anakin wore himself out and cooled down a bit. He went through the initial onslaught and the final conversation came. "I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over" Obi-Wan is again flabbergasted. What do you say to that? "ANAKIN (YOU KRIFFIN IDIOT!), Chancellor Palpatine is EVIL!" "In my mind the Jedi are evil!" That's it. "THEN YOU ARE LOST!" Very very true. It is at this point that I believe Obi-Wan stopped believing. Out of all the other crazy things that were done over the course of the battle, Obi-Wan asks Anakin not do make the jump. I think this is because he has finally resigned himself to finishing this. It's over. Once Anakin Jumps, he's going to have to kill him. Anakin jumps, Obi-Wan slices him up and pretty much leaves him for dead.

Short answer, yes. I think Obi-Wan thought there was some good in him when he went to Mustafar.

Carnage

 

The saga is great and I hate to say it but it would be exponentially better if Vader had said " Your mother once thought as you did ".

 

The ROTS novel makes it clear that Obi-Wan believed he could bring Anakin back....right up until the end of the duel.

I'll admit I was hoping for a bit more verbal effort during the blade clashing. Heck, Obi-Wan tries, but Anakin's twisted mind has to go and change the subject.

"I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you." (Already starting to take the blame)

"I should have known the Jedi were trying to take over." (already too twisted to listen to reason)

The novel makes it clear beautifully, when Obi-Wan comes to the epiphany that Anakin is truly lost and he has to let him go. At this point, he lets go of his attachment and gains the upper hand.