"Obi-Wan once thought as you do"

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Darth_Turkey, Dec 30, 2005.

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  1. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Is there any moment in ROTS that supports this? Is there any moment in the OT that even supports this? From the moment Obi-wan see's the recordings of Anakin in the temple, Yoda sends him to kill Anakin, and though Obi-wan does not like the thought of going through with this, he at no point tries to redeam Anakin back to the good side. He heads to Padames apartment where Padame says "You're going to kill him are'nt you" to which Obi-wan replies "He has become a very great threat" . . . does'nt sound much like Obi-wan thought like Luke does at all.

    He talks briefly to Anakin before the duel, but nothing about trying to turn Anakin back. Perhaps the odd line could have been thrown in about his unborn child, the woman he loves or the person he used to be would support the "Obi-wan once thought like you do" line.

    Luke feels the good in Anakin, Obi-wan does not, commenting in the OT that Vader is "More machine than man, twisted and evil"

    Luke tries to turn him back to the good side, thats Lukes whole plan when he turns himself into Vader. He does'nt want to fight or kill him. Maybe if Obi-wan had not sneaked aboard Padames ship on a mission to destroy him, but had instead tracked him down himself and approached him without an egender, Anakin could possibly have been talked back from the brink of destruction.

    Any thoughts?
  2. Darth-Zame43 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2004
    star 4
    I think Obi-Wan try to turn him back in a less obvious way by trying to use Anakin's own reasoning to get him to see what he was actually doing.


    "You were the choosen one, it was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them!"

    "You have become the very thing you had sworn to destroy."

    "I fight for the Republic, for DemoCRACY!"

    "Palpatine is EVIL."


    But once Anakin says that he believes the Jedi are evil, Obi-Wan gives up, saying:

    Then you truly are lost.

  3. Outer_Rim_Girl Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 3, 2005
    star 1
    Shouldn't this belong in either the 'Saga' or 'Classic Trilogy' board since it's a quote from ROTJ?
  4. Sidious_T Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 2, 2004
    star 4
    ^^^^^

    Why Yes, Yes it should
  5. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    I always look at it this way.

    Luke thinks that being a Jedi is the "right" way for himself and for his father.
    Obi-Wan was a Jedi and, therefore, thought that the Jedi way was the "right" way.
    Anakin grew to adopt the Sith point of view.
    When Obi and Vader clash on Mustafar - it is pretty clear that it is a collision of points of view.
    "My way is right - for me, for you, for everybody."
    "No - my way is right!"

    In that way, I think pretty much the whole PT shows how Obi once thought like Luke now does - they are both Jedi.
    And when Obi meets Vader on Mustafar, Obi makes it quite clear that he feels he has chosen the wrong path by choosing the Sith.
    Simply by making that distinction, he is thinking like Luke.
  6. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    My apologies.

    Just trying to find if there was any point of reference from ROTS to back up the quote from the OT. So i think it is still relevent here.

    I think from the moment Obi-wan steps out of the ship he is intending to battle Anakin, not turn him back. The phrase . .

    "You have become what you swore to destroy" is more of an insult, and will do Obi-wan no favours if he is indeed trying to reason with Anakin.

    The line "You were the chosen one . . ect" is said after Anakin has been hacked up, so we can take it as pretty firm proof Obi-wan was'nt trying to turn Anakin back to the light side at this point.

    I believe there was origonally some conversation durin the duel. I believe this sould have been left in, if it had anything to do with Obi-wan trying to make Anakin see the errors of his ways, and not simply goading him, as he has done so far.
  7. yankee8255 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2005
    star 6
    1. It belongs here, as it focuses on what Obi Wan did or didn't do in ROTS.

    2. To answer DT's question: You're right, another case of something being said in the OT that simply doesn't match what we see in ROTS. The statements quoted by Darth-Zame43 are not an attempt to convince Anakin to come back, OB1 has already decided that Anakin cannot be saved.
  8. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Obi-Wan: "Don't try it."

    Ergo - Obi-Wan, who has been sent specifically to destroy Anakin, is now warning Anakin not to make him have to kill him. Because he doesn't want to kill him. And if he doesn't want to kill him, he wants him to live.

    Makes perfect sense to me...
  9. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4

    Obi-wan does not want anakin to stike because he knows anakin will lose and he does not relish the idea of killing his "brother". This has nothing to do with trying to save him or indeed even believing that Anakin could be saved. (by saved i dont mean from death, i mean from the darkside)
    I see no evendence that from the time Obi-wan learns anakin is a sith, to the time he hacks him up, that Obi-wan even concidered Anakin was still good. Padame believes this right up until her death and she tells anakin as much, but we know he does'nt believe it from what he later tells Luke.



    yankee8255, thanks for your comments :0)

  10. DINVADER_RETURNS Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2003
    star 3
    You can interpret those lines more than one way.

    "Obi-Wan once thought as you do. (pauses) You don't know the power of the darkside, I must obey my Master."
  11. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Explain?

    Do you mean he is saying Obi-wan once thought the darkside was'nt as powerful as it is, and that there was no way Anakin could be turned, had he even tried?

    If so, i'd like to know how Obi-wan thought this, having never even tried to turn him back from the Darkside.
  12. THE_JEDIPURGE20 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2001
    star 2
    Obi Wan may have believed at some point between ROTS and ANH that Vader could be turned. I think Vader's point is that he (Vader and or/ Anakin) knew that he couldn't because once you start down the dark path, "forever will it dominate your destiny".
  13. thechozn1 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 15, 2005
    star 4
    I love mini-mods [face_plain]

    I've actually put some thought into this in the past. I think it was something that Anakin sensed within Obi-wan. One of the little moments that I like in the film is when they're on those lava skiffs, or whatever the hell they are, and Anakin is making his way towards Obi-wan. Notice the look on Obi-wan's face here. It's almost as though he's not sure of what Anakin is going to do. He still has hope for him even though Anakin had just spent the last 30 minutes or so trying to kill him.

    Plus we know that GL didn't have every piece of dialogue written out for the PT back when ROTJ came out. Back at that time he may have envisioned more effort on Obi-wan's part to try and bring Anakin back. Things ended up moving very quickly though.


    $CZ1$
  14. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Right.
    He doesn't want to kill Anakin.
    He has been sent there with that one task to carry out, and he does not want to do it.

    In your opinion, of course.
    Personally, I have yet to see how making an conscious attempt "not to kill" is not the same thing as sparing or saving someone.

    But if you follow that through, how can they not be mutually exclusive?
    If Obi-Wan spares Anakin's life, it is because he thinks that life has some inherant value.
    How can it not?
    What is he planning to do if he "saves his life" but does not think he has any reason to be "saved" - keep him in a little cage as his Sith pet?
  15. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    I would of liked a line or two of Obi-wan trying to pull Anakin back to the light. They were after all brothers, best friends, one-time master and apprentice . . . and Obi-wan did'nt even try. This is the only part of the film i felt was a little weak, just prior to the duel.

    Obi-wan says after the duel how much he loved Anakin . . . but he does'nt say these things before the duel, when it really counted and could have done so real good. Instead Obi-wan lectures him and talks about democracy. I think it could have been more powerful to see Obi-wan breakdown before the duel, slowly realising his friend is no more, then pull himself together for the big fight, rather than simply "Only a Sith deals in Absolutes, i will do what i must"
  16. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    No. Obi-wan does not want Anakin to attack because he knows Anakin will lose, but he knows he muct strike or else Anakin will kill him. Anakin is forcing Obi-wans hand.

    Obi-wan was not trying to save Anakin from death at this point, he was simply trying to disuade Anakin from forcing him into killing a brother and good friend, something Obi-wan did'nt want to do from the start. It's not an attempt to save Anakin, more an attempt to get out of doing the job he was sent to do, killing someone, doing something which is not the Jedi way, and against everything he believes.
  17. voodoopuuduu Classic Trilogy Trivia Host

    Game Host
    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2004
    star 5
    Whether or not Anakin can be turned back from the Dark Side has more to do with Anakins frame of mind than Obi-Wans. Because the line "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" was said by Anakin, its his frame of mind or what he thought, that is important.
  18. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    But isn't that in itslf trying to show Anakin the error of his ways?
    By expressing "Sith" in the third person like that?
    "You shouldn't think like that, that is how Sith think. I'll keep thinking like a Jedi, and you should too."

    Anakin: "Don't lecture me, Obi-Wan."

    Anakin obviously feels he is being lectured.
    What could Obi be implying if he is lecturing, other than that Anakin is "wrong"?
  19. Get_in_Gear Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 29, 2004
    star 5
    Exactly.
    We shouldn't be looking at what Obi is doing and saying - more what Anakin is thinking.

    For me, it is not just about Obi literally saying to Vader "you must turn back", it is about the whole conflict of ideologies.
    Obi-Wan once "thought as Luke does" for two whole movies - for 13 years!
    We see it in TPM and AOTC - that is when Obi thinks that his beliefs are the beliefs that Anakin should also cherish and uphold.
    Throughout that time, Obi is training Anakin to be a Jedi and wants him to be a Jedi because being a Jedi is "right".

    In ROTS, Anakin rejects Obi, the Jedi and their beliefs.
    And when he does that, then Vader is basically in a position where he thinks "Obi wanted me to be a Jedi, now I have found something better - Obi was wrong."
  20. Obi-Wan-1000 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2005
    star 4
    I think when Obi-wan told Anakin that "chancellor Palpatine is evil " I think that was tryig to get him back.
  21. Master Chbel Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2000
    star 4
    Obi-Wan doesn't appear in this scene until AFTER Padme has tried. He gives her the chance to turn Anakin back to the light (what he would have done if she had succeeded, I'm not sure). Even after she collapses, he tries with words to convince Anakin...
  22. RolandofGilead Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2001
    star 7
    You're forgetting the entire conversation before Obi-wan says Anakin is lost. He tells him to come to his senses and realize he's been duped by Palpatine. That Palpatine is evil and he's blind to it. But Anakin proclaims that it is the Jedi who are evil, a truly delusional claim that proves to Obi-wan that Anakin is gone.

    Yet throughout the duel he still tries to save him. Still avoids killing him on several occasions because he still loves him.

    Thus Obi-wan once loved Anakin and thought he was a good man as Luke does on Endor.
  23. Medi-Uu_ Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Dec 29, 2005
    i think one thing we need to consider, is WHEN Anakin makes this quote....which is 20+ years after his last confrontation with Obiwan. Anakin "is" referencing his total view of Obiwan, not just Obiwan's actions the last he saw him. I think Anakin could simply be referencing Luke's simple Right/Wrong ideology, which Obi certainly believed as well.

    As far as Obi's actions at the end of ROTS, his "brother" just murdered everyone at the Jedi Temple! What an inconcievable action! If the PT jedi didn't marry, due to the emotions it caused, imagine your "brother" turning on you, and your life long beliefs, murdering your entire "family" and the emotions THAT causes.

    I agree with GetinGear, and that Obi asking Anakin not to make the attempt at higher ground, pleading for his life, shows that he still cared for Anakin, but after Anakin did it anyway, Obi knew that he was not able to reach him. This comes back where Obi admits he failed with Anakin as a teacher.
  24. Anagorn Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2003
    star 3
    I truly think that Obi-Wan went to Mustafar with good
    intentions to try to talk sense into Anakin and
    stop him from doing any more harm.
    He couldn´t believe what he saw in the hologram in
    the Jedi Temple and he almost refused to kill
    Anakin because "he´s like my brother".
    But when he noticed how brainwashed and power hungry
    he actually had become when he heard what he said
    and indeed did even to Padme there could be no
    doubt in his mind that he had been part of
    the raid against the Jedi Knights and
    young Padawans.
    He still tried to convince him to rethink and realise
    that this was the wrong way to go but he was
    attacked and the duel started.
    Later on he tried to calm him down once more
    but once again he could tell how far gone
    he was and in desperation to try to wake
    him up from the evil spell he yelled
    "Well then you are lost!"
    Finally he gave Anakin a third chance and told him
    "It´s over Anakin!" and "Don´t try it!" but
    Anakin attacked him yet again and he
    had to do what was necessary to
    stop the madness from going
    any further.
    Very reluctantly mind you.
    Remember that he didn´t even answer Padme
    when she asked if he was going to kill
    Anakin.
    Simply because he didn´t know since it
    was really up to Anakin and how far
    he had gone to the dark side.
    Anakin always knew in his heart that
    Obi-Wan had faith in him, cared for
    him and could never believe that
    the chosen one could let him
    and the Jedis down.
    "He will not let me down" "He never has"
    The problem was that Anakin knew that
    what he was doing really wasn´t right
    but he was so confused that he tried
    to convince himself otherwise since
    he was desperate and had gone to
    far to turn back in his own mind
    and Obi-Wan had no idea that
    what Palpatine´s evil had
    done to his former pupil.
    So the ROTJ line "Obi-Wan once thought as you do"
    rings true in ROTS and the rest of the PT
    as well for that matter.
  25. darthOB1 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 22, 2000
    star 5
    Roland is right.

    The conversation while they were dueling on the lava skiffs was Obi-wans attempt to persuade Anakin he made a wrong choice and can turn back.

    "I have failed you" he claims in an attempt to shift the blame of Anakins turning onto himself. Anakin refuses to see this and says "I should have know the jedi planning to take over"

    "Anakin chancellor Palpatine is evil............ BLAH BLAH BLAH"

    After many years in a vacuum sealed suit he finally realized that perhaps what Obi-wan said was true. Luke just happened to be the catalyst in bringing out his true feelings that he thought he had forever lost. He sarted to think about the situation instead of blindly following his passions as he had on Mustafar.

    He said what he said to Luke so that he wouldn't let him think what he said was actually starting to make sense.

    "Obi-wan once thaought as you did.........(Doesn't matter,snap out of it) ...... YOU DON"T KNOW THE POWER OF THE DARK SIDE."
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