"Obi-Wan once thought as you do"

Discussion in 'Revenge of the Sith' started by Darth_Turkey, Dec 30, 2005.

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  1. inkswamp Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 14, 2004
    star 3
    There isn't a direct quote or conversation that matches up with it (i.e., Obi-Wan saying something like "Anakin, there is still good in you. You can turn back.") But then, there doesn't need to be.

    A lot of us got attached to certain specifics with the OT that were not provided, but merely hinted at. Many of us reasonably assumed that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" is hinting at some events unseen wherein Obi-Wan tries to turn Vader back to the good side. However, if you view the SW films in numeric order, you'll see that the line makes just as much sense without that assumption.

    How? Vader doesn't specify himself in that statement. The statement can be read more generally, that Obi-Wan once believed that someone who has turned to the dark side could be turned back. Think about it. It is all a matter of dueling assumptions.

    Someone watching the films in numeric order will have a different assumption about Vader's comment than someone watching the films in release order. From numeric order, one would assume that Vader is referring to some off-screen discussion that Obi-Wan and Anakin must have had at some point where Obi-Wan expresses a belief that someone turned to the dark side could be saved. It makes sense. Obi-Wan taught Anakin a great deal, must have expressed a lot of his own opinions and knowledge. At some point, Obi-Wan told Anakin that but not in the context of trying to turn Vader back as a lot of us assumed.

  2. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Good call :0)

    Nice Sig by the way too.

    It's just my personal oppinion i guess, i would have liked to actually see Obi-wan try to turn Anakin back, rather than talk about politics and democracy. But there you go . .
  3. mastersith69 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    star 1
    i believe that line fits perfect because obi wan did try to turn anakin away from the darkside and i'll explain: before there fight obiwan tries to reason with him by showing his allegence to freedom and democracy and trying to show anakin that sidious is evil but anakin ignores and attacks. I think obiwan failed because at the time anakin was young and dumb and headstrong and full of distrust to listen his best friend.

    now jump forward to rotj and where luke is talking to him and telling vader to come with him. that line where he says come with me does not mean run away with me it means come with me to face the emperor. luke knew how to turn anakin back from the darkside where obiwan did not. of course when rotj rolls around vader is more able to listen to reason and decide more calm and cool. so when sidious attacks luke in the final moments with lighting vader see how his son stood up to evil where he could not and was able to redeem himself.

    so luke and obiwan did think alike but luke knew where to capatilize on the situation.
  4. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    Fair enough.

    So to turn your answer round (just for instance)

    Do you think that Anakin would have come back to the good side, had Obi-wan gone to face Palps, and Anakin whitnessed palps frying him? Is there anything in ROTS that suggests Anakin is at all redeamable at any point, or is it meerly through years of reflecting on his losses and finding his son in later life that aids his turning back to the good side?
  5. mastersith69 Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2005
    star 1
    like i said before my good online chatter, i think through years of looking back and maturing over what he had done when he faces luke he is able to make a calm cool right decision. in rots anakin was so dead set on keeping padme alive he would do anything. he had to loose everything in order to learn what the right decisions are in life. thats why i believe in rots anakin was unable to see through the lies. when rotj happened luke was able to talk to vader in a calmn cool collect conversation and also he saw luke as a last attempt to redeem himself.
  6. YYZ-2112 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2004
    star 4
    Part of being a Sith apprentice is being completely dominated by the Sith Master. It's like being hypnotised. The power hungry nature of the Sith demands such obedience. The rule of two was forged because of that demand.

    When Vader tells Luke that Obi Wan once thought as you do, he's referring to what he consideres a naive understanding of the dark side. In his mind, once you go to the dark side you can't go back. Vader even admits "It is too late for me son." Part of him wants to leave but he feels it's beyond his power to leave and so he obeys his Master and perhaps even plans to leave his Sith legacy for his son to inherit after he is dead; according to Sith tradition. See Anakin was never afraid to die; he only fears the loss of others. At this point in the story (ROTJ) he doesn't want to kill Luke but he feels he can't go good either. So his only option is to turn Luke and either join against the Emperor or let Luke kill him.

    "I do not fear the dark side as you do." Whethor or not this is true; it shows that from Vader's perspective, Obi Wan and the Jedi in general don't understand what the dark side means. It means absolute lifelong servitude. Yoda however states plainly "Once you go down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny. Consume you it will, as it did Obi Wan's Apprentice." I would wager that after the battle on Mustafar Obi Wan probably feels the same way, which is why he refers to them as separate personas.

    Luke however feels the good in him. Perhaps this is a family bond that only the Skywalkers can sense and more acurately that only Luke discovered when Vader spared him on Bespin because of that family bond.

    At any rate the context of the dialogue ROTJ is simply that Luke thinks Anakin can abandon the dark side and Vader feels that he is doomed to it; "You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my Master."

    Obi Wan felt this way too but his approach at turning Anakin was presented through conceptual logic and sypathy for duty and the Jedi mandate. But these were not things that Anakin cared about over his love for family. So Obi Wan's attempt failed. Later when Luke tries, it's because of love for family and it's through that love that Luke refrains himself. And ultimately it's the reason Anakin comes back.
  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 10
    "He (Anakin) doesn?t want to do it because it's his duty. It's his destiny. Now he must confront his friend who wants to bring justice -just like him. So they both want to do the same thing. One is doing it out of strength and power and doing things he knows is wrong; and the other one (Kenobi) is doing the inevitable things that he has to do, but he really doesn?t want to have to do which is get rid of his friend."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.


    In other words, they both know that this is coming. They're just trying to avoid it. That's why Anakin doesn't attack Obi-wan right away and even gives him a chance to join him. And Obi-wan doesn't want to kill Anakin.
  8. farrellg Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Mar 17, 2005
    star 4
    And Obi-wan doesn't want to kill Anakin.

    I think this is a good explanation for Vader's line in ROTJ. Obi-Wan doesn't go through the efforts that Luke does to turn Anakin back. Kenobi never even says that he thinks there is good in Anakin. However, he does try to talk some sense into Anakin instead of just preparing for battle the way he did with Maul, Dooku, and even Vader during their rematch.

    Anakin understands that Obi-Wan was reluctant to kill him. In addition to trying to get Anakin to see the error of his ways, Obi-Wan even begs his "brother" not to make the fateful jump. Both Luke and Obi-Wan tried to avoid fighting or killing Anakin. During the Mustafar duel, Obi-Wan still had some sympathy for his former friend. Obi-Wan's attitude is similar to Luke's, even if Kenobi's words aren't the same as Luke's.
  9. Alley_Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2005
    star 4
    I truly think that Obi-Wan went to Mustafar with good
    intentions to try to talk sense into Anakin and
    stop him from doing any more harm.
    He couldn´t believe what he saw in the hologram in


    I strongly disagree. I think Obi-Wan had very intention to fihgt Anakin. He might have not wanted to do it much but je was going to. And I don't think that he couldn't believe the holos. He was just kinda shoked but not disbelieving. I really thoughtthat Anakin could be brought back he wouldn't protest so much about Yoda because he would realize that better he go and try to bring Ani back instead of Yoda who wouldn't even try. and yt Obi-Wan fights it.

    He still tried to convince him to rethink and realise
    that this was the wrong way to go but he was
    attacked and the duel started.


    Oh please! Do you really think that Obi-Wan doen't know Anakin at all? It is so obvioue that LECTURING HIM "Yuou di so-and-so" wasn't gonna bring him back. Only push him further way.
    And just because Anakin takes the offensive doesn't mean that he was the one to "attack" Notice that Anakin doen't even have his saber hilt out. He actually turns his back to Obi-Wan. He's giving him a chance to leave. The whole looking-the-other-way thing. Kenobi however says "I will do what I must." Which translates to "I'm gonna kill you." And then draws and activates his 'saber. I personally consider that not just a highly provocative move but also making the firs move.


    Later on he tried to calm him down once more
    but once again he could tell how far gone
    he was and in desperation to try to wake
    him up from the evil spell he yelled
    "Well then you are lost!"


    how is something like that gobba calm him down?

    Very reluctantly mind you.
    Remember that he didn´t even answer Padme


    Don't you think that he simply didn't want to hurt her? They were friends, not very close but still. I mean would you want to go to your firend and say "Hey! I'm gonna go kill you boyfrien whom you love very much but don't hate me for it ok?" Of course he didn't ell her outright but he didn't deny it ether because he new that he'd be lying.

    Anakin always knew in his heart that
    Obi-Wan had faith in him, cared for
    him and could never believe that
    the chosen one could let him


    Or did he? Did Anakin every really know that Obi-Wan cared at all for him. That he wasn't just a prophesy and promise to him?

    As for the line itself I think Ani would be refering more to Luke thing as a Jedi like Kenobi did. That they had the same, Jedi, POV. Not on him personally but on what is right and what is wrong.

    No offense meant, really. This is just my opinion.
  10. JBRO13 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 29, 2003
    star 3
    The line from Vader is said in response to Luke's "come with me".

    It had nothing to do with either side of the Force.

    They should change the line in ROTJ to "your mother once thought as you do" because Padme begs Anakin to "come away with me".
  11. DINVADER_RETURNS Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 10, 2003
    star 3
    The line from Vader is said in response to Luke's "come with me".

    Not necessarily, but it could just as much be a response of everything Luke has said up to then.

    It had nothing to do with either side of the Force.
    Notice immediately after he says "Obi-Wan once thought as you do." he also says "You don't know the power of the darkside...I must obey my master."

    They should change the line in ROTJ to "your mother once thought as you do" because Padme begs Anakin to "come away with me".
    Possibly, but it works fine the way it is."
  12. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4
    I like the way that during the Vader - Luke chat, Vader is really concentrating on the force and the power of the darkside, rather than Luke, Obi-wan or his past (the things Luke is trying to make him think about) and Vader believes that the darkside is stronger. He believes he is on the right side becasue Dark concoured light. He was the chosen one and he was not able to resist, why should Luke?
    I think this is one of the main reasons for his turning to the light side. Apart from the love of his child and the fear he again faces from the possibility of losing Luke at the hands of the Emporer . . . i think Vader realises The light side of the force is actually stronger than the dark side when Luke refuses to turn.

    Previously:

    Vader: You dont know the power of the Dark side, i must obey my master.

    Vader: The Emporer will show you the true nature of the force, he is your master now.

    After the duel:

    Luke: I'll never turn to the darkside, you've failed your highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me.


    Vader now see's that the pull of the darkside is not as strong as he believed and see's the strength in Luke that he should have had. He then makes his mind up to turn, after the frying starts . . :0)

    I'm coming round to the idea that Maybe Vader says "Obi-wan once thought like you do" to make Luke dispare a little, give him a lack of hope. Make Luke think "Wow, if Obi-wan could'nt turn him, what chance do i have" and give up. Many of the things Vader and The Emporer say to Luke are meerly to get a reaction from him, make him anger, fear, dispare, aid in his turning to the darkside . . . maybe this line was also one of them?
  13. Alley_Skywalker Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 27, 2005
    star 4
    I'm coming round to the idea that Maybe Vader says "Obi-wan once thought like you do" to make Luke dispare a little, give him a lack of hope. Make Luke think "Wow, if Obi-wan could'nt turn him, what chance do i have" and give up. Many of the things Vader and The Emporer say to Luke are meerly to get a reaction from him, make him anger, fear, dispare, aid in his turning to the darkside . . . maybe this line was also one of them?

    Yea I think you're right. That's a good explanation.
  14. Sweetcurse Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 10, 2004
    star 1
    This is a repost from another thread I participated in.

    "Obi-Wan once tought as you do." Some believe this should have happened durnig the duel. But I believe this meeting actually happens at the Star Destroyer platform before Obi-Wan leaves for Utapau. In that scene, Anakin feels all bad about himself and Obi-Wan comforts him saying that he IS a good Jedi and that he will overcome his issues...that he believes in him, in his goodness. But Anakin knew better, he knew the dark side had overtaken him already. Ben believed in Anakin like Luke at that point.

    Most people place Ben believing in Anakin at the end of the story, during the duel, but by that point it's too late to assume Ben would try to bring Anain back. I firmly believe the "Obi-Wan once tought as you do" part happens at the platform.
  15. Obi-Chron Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2003
    star 4
    YTZ-2112 said: "When Vader tells Luke that Obi Wan once thought as you do, he's referring to what he consideres a naive understanding of the dark side. In his mind, once you go to the dark side you can't go back. Vader even admits "It is too late for me son." Part of him wants to leave but he feels it's beyond his power to leave and so he obeys his Master and perhaps even plans to leave his Sith legacy for his son to inherit after he is dead; according to Sith tradition. See Anakin was never afraid to die; he only fears the loss of others. At this point in the story (ROTJ) he doesn't want to kill Luke but he feels he can't go good either. So his only option is to turn Luke and either join against the Emperor or let Luke kill him.

    Interesting observations -- this is a novel opinion I've not seen in my time on these boards, and yet it fits if one chooses to accept that particular take on the plot line.

    Sweetcurse said: ""Obi-Wan once tought as you do." Some believe this should have happened durnig the duel. But I believe this meeting actually happens at the Star Destroyer platform before Obi-Wan leaves for Utapau. In that scene, Anakin feels all bad about himself and Obi-Wan comforts him saying that he IS a good Jedi and that he will overcome his issues...that he believes in him, in his goodness. But Anakin knew better, he knew the dark side had overtaken him already. Ben believed in Anakin like Luke at that point.

    This is precisely the scene where I made the exact same connection between ROTJ Vader and your cited ROTS Anakin statements.

    I believe that Vader understands his son is the keystone to not just his, but the galaxy's destiny. Vader sensed something the moment Han blasted his Imperial fighter and Luke torched the Death Star. Vader sensed the strength of "this one's" force powers. 'Upon further review between ANH and TESB,' he concluded that this must be his son. It would be illuminating to know just how Vader arrived at the conclusion that the pilot who destroyed the DS was indeed 'Young Skywalker,' the son of his beloved Padme, and Shmi's only grandson. I can almost envision Vader in his solitude playing Barbara Streisand singing "Memories . . . like the colors of my mind. Misty watercolored memories . . . . of the way we were!"

    But what draws Vader to entice Luke to join him and destroy the Emperor and then stop Luke from striking the Emperor down on DSII instead of joining him in the act? I cannot fathom Vaderkin getting cold metallic feet. So this leads me to believe that one way or the other, Vaderkin wanted a Skywalker dynasty ruling the galaxy. Whether it was led by he, Lord Vader, or his son did not matter. As YTZ-2112 said, he too viewed Luke as a 'new hope.' If Vaderkin could not rule the galaxy, then perhaps his son (and Padme's) would! Maybe one day Luke would rise up and defeat the old man, take a new apprentice or even rule with his sister, extending the Skywalker dynasty far, far into the future in the galaxy far, far away.



  16. i_dont_know Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 6, 2005
    star 4
    Vader's line is proven true in the prequels in several ways.

    One instance that the obvious meaning of "Obi-Wan once thought as you do" is shown:

    LUKE:
    There's still good in him.
    OBI-WAN:
    He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.
    LUKE:
    I can't do it, Ben.
    BEN
    You cannot escape your destiny. You must face Darth Vader again!
    LUKE:
    I can't kill my own father.
    BEN
    Then the Emperor has already won. You were our only hope.

    -------------

    OBI-WAN:
    Send me to kill the Emperor. I will not kill Anakin.
    YODA:
    To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough, you are not.
    OBI-WAN:
    He is like my brother ... I cannot do it.
    YODA:
    Twisted by the dark side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is... Consumed by Darth Vader.
    OBI-WAN:
    I do not know where the Emperor has sent him. I don't know where to look.
    YODA: Use your feelings, Obi-Wan, and find him, you will.

    (Although Vader couldn't have known either conversation took place).


    Young Obi-Wan also acts similarly to Luke in several PT scenes

    *
    Luke watching Obi-Wan be killed by Vader, unable to intervene, shouting "No!", before going into a short frenzy of anger inspired accurate shooting.
    -
    Obi-Wan watching Qui-Gon be killed by Vader, unable to intervene, shouting "Noooo!", before going into the uber-speedy section of the Maul duel.

    *
    VADER: Luke, you do not yet realise your importance. You have only begun to discover you power. Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy.
    LUKE: I'll never join you!
    -
    DOOKU: You must join me Obi-Wan, and together, we will destroy the Sith!
    OBI-WAN: I will never join you Dooku.
  17. Darth_Turkey Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 5, 2004
    star 4

    I like this a lot, good observation. An obvious part of ROTS that had been overlooked. Obi-wan believes Anakin is strong and wise and a good person. The look on Anakins face after Obi-wan departs tells a different story. He knows what he has to do, he's already made up his mind to learn the ways of the darkside, which means betraying his friend.
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