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PT "Obi-Wan Once Thought As You Do ..."

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by Darth Mikey, Oct 11, 2015.

  1. Darth Mikey

    Darth Mikey Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Sep 7, 2015
    I'm not really sure if this thread belongs here, or in the OT Forum. The reference is from the OT, but the discussion centers on events of the PT, so I thought maybe it belonged here more? LOL!

    ANYWAY.... in ROTJ, Luke and Vader have their conversation on Endor, where Luke tries to get through to his Father, telling him there is still good in him, how he feels the conflict inside between Anakin and Vader, tells Vader he won't take Luke to the Emperor,and at one point he implores his Father to "Come with me." - I'm assuming to leave the Emperor and the Sith behind. Vader's response is interesting : " Obi-Wan once thought as you do. You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I MUST obey my Master."



    My question -and the reason for this being here - is what does that mean, Obi-Wan once thought as you do? This is in direct response to Luke saying Vader still has good in him, that Vader won't kill Luke or turn him over to the Emperor, and Luke's plea for Vader to go with him.

    Um... at what point did this happen concerning Obi-Wan. Indeed, once Kenobi discovers Anakin is the new Sith, he goes from horror, to trying to get Padme to reveal Anakin's location so he can kill him, to finally the duel on Mustafar where Kenobi will "Do what I must." ... Maybe I'm missing something, but i never saw anything to make me think Kenobi believed Anakin could turn back, and DEFINITELY no conversation between Obi-Wan and Vader to make Vader think Kenobi thought as Luke does, that his Father can be redeemed. Once he turns Sith, Kenobi and Anakin only have antagonistic conversation, and then right into a life and death duel.



    Just wondering what everyone else thinks of this?
     
  2. thejeditraitor

    thejeditraitor Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    rots - obi - "palpatine is evil".

    rotj - vader - "You don't know the power of the Dark Side. I MUST obey my Master."

    ... and basically obi thought the jedi and the light side were the way to go.
     
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  3. _Sublime_Skywalker_

    _Sublime_Skywalker_ Jedi Master star 4

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    May 8, 2004
    It could also mean that Obi Wan once had high hopes for his former apprentice, before the whole Jedi slaughter thing, and thought Anakin was above being a Sith. I mean, I get what you're saying, there's not a single line where Obi tells him it's not too late... but he does witness Anakin force choke Padme, his whole reason for turning in the first place. That would put most people out of the view of redemption pretty quickly.
     
  4. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 10, 2015

    I think you brought up a good topic, Darth Mikey. I wondered that myself years ago. But I came to the same conclusion that Sublime-Skywalker did about the issue. Before Operation: Knightfall, Obi-Wan thought Anakin had some emotional issues and struggles, but he thought that Anakin would never lose control and go ape**** like that. Obi-Wan was horrified that Anakin would betray a kill so many Jedi, including children, betray a democracy, and become willing to harm good people like Padme. As Lucas described so well in his commentary of ROTS, Anakin/Vader no longer had any control of his emotions by that point. That's why Obi-Wan was so shocked and upset. And who can blame him?

    Obi-Wan never verbalize what Luke and Padme said about there still being hope for Anakin. He did it with his actions before and during the Clone Wars when he had faith in Anakin despite Anakin's problems. Anakin was a mixed bag and never a true Jedi, but Obi-Wan hoped that he could become one. The tragedy is that Anakin never really became one until the last moments of his life.
     
  5. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    I agree. While it would've been nice for Obi-Wan to try and say something like, "Anakin, I'm trying to help you. It's not too late for you Come with me, help me stop the Emperor. We'll do this together," he was a bit too pissed off at Anakin at the moment. Kind of hard to see a monster that murdered the only family you've ever known and throttle his own wife as someone worthy of being saved.
     
  6. SateleNovelist11

    SateleNovelist11 Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jan 10, 2015
  7. CT-867-5309

    CT-867-5309 Force Ghost star 6

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    Jan 5, 2011
    It's an incredibly wistful line that not only now has no solid basis, but actually has evidence to the contrary.

    Regardless of the reasoning, this is one of those inconsistencies that can be very disappointing and unsatisfying.
     
  8. JEDI-RISING

    JEDI-RISING Force Ghost star 6

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    Apr 15, 2005
    it's a refernce to Vader knowing Luke was on the light side and asking him to come with him was asking him to come back to what he had been.
    "you don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master" . the first sentence is a cop out . the second is a sign of his enslavement to Sidious. There's a part of him that is conflicted, that wants to come back, but he doesn't know how he can. He probably can't forgive himself for what he's done.
     
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  9. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2003
    I totally agree and with all the tinkering George has done over the years, this line could have been easily fixed to "your mother once thought as you do" it would have connected perfectly. The Obi Wan line was ok before the PT, but after should have been changed. Missed opportunity by GL for sure.
     
  10. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    Yeah, it's basically his way of saying, "Son, if you knew all the horrific acts I've either committed or ordered over the last 23 years, you would not be standing there asking me to come with you."
     
  11. PymParticles

    PymParticles Cruel but Fair Tyrant of New Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

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    Oct 1, 2014
    Unless they do an Anthology film depicting another confrontation of some sort between Kenobi and Vader post-RotS/pre-ANH, I think it's just best to chalk it up as a small inconsistency. It's annoying, but not really a big deal in the grand scheme of things as far as either trilogy goes.
     
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  12. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    It's based on what Padme told him.

    There's more than one way in which one person can learn what another person was thinking.
     
  13. Darth Mikey

    Darth Mikey Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 7, 2015


    All they needed was one line, either before,during, or after the Duel. Something along the lines of this:

    After Force Choke : Anakin - " If you're not with me, then you're my enemy! " Kenobi - " Only a Sith deals with absolutes. Come back, and don't make me do what I must."

    During Duel : Anakin - "From my point of view the Jedi are evil! " Kenobi - " Don't make me believe the boy I trained is lost!"

    After Duel : Anakin - " I hate you!!!" Kenobi - " You were my brother Anakin! I loved you! I don't want to kill you!"

    Just SOMETHING to show that Kenobi believed in front of Anakin, even for a second,that Anakin could make the choice to turn from the Dark Side.
     
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  14. LZM65

    LZM65 Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 24, 2015
    Remember . . . by the time of "Revenge of the Sith", Obi-Wan was the only one of the Jedi who was advocating faith in Anakin. Which is ironic, considering his previous views of Anakin's role as "the Chosen One' in "The Phantom Menace" and "Attack of the Clones". Anakin had no idea of Padme's views about his goodness, etc. But he was aware that just before he became a Sith Lord, Obi-Wan was the only one left advocating on his behalf.
     
  15. TCF-1138

    TCF-1138 Porg of New Films & Fan Films star 5 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Sep 20, 2002
    Maybe... Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, was lying?
    Luke's mentor was Obi-Wan, and Vader knows Luke cares about his mentor. If Vader tells Luke Obi-Wan had previously held that belief, but had later changed his mind, Luke might be less inclined to cling to said belief himself

    I don't know, I'm just speculating. I've noticed this before, but it has never bothered me.
     
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  16. lovelikewinter

    lovelikewinter Jedi Knight star 4

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    May 28, 2014

    Or you know he could have actually tried to address this when writing ROTS.
     
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  17. Admiral Volshe

    Admiral Volshe Force Ghost star 10

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    Sep 2, 2012
    Seems like enough for me.
     
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  18. DARTHLINK

    DARTHLINK Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 24, 2005
    I would've had something like:

    ANAKIN: If you're not with me, then you're my enemy!
    OBI-WAN: Anakin, please! Listen to yourself! This is not who you are, this is not the boy I trained. It's not too late. Anakin, help me destroy the Emperor. Help me restore peace to the Republic. Help me save your wife. Anakin, please! This is not-
    ANAKIN: <roaring> I AM SICK OF YOUR LECTURES! <ignites saber and attacks>

    The rest is the same.
     
  19. enigmaticjedi

    enigmaticjedi Jedi Knight star 3

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    Nov 2, 2011
    Obi-Wan did not really try to save Anakin. He lectured him. All he said was, "You have allowed this dark lord to twist your mind until now, you have become the very thing you swore to destroy . . . Your new empire? Anakin, my allegiance is to the Republic, to democracy!"

    Yoda convinced him no one can be redeemed from the dark side. Though to be fair, after seeing his brother kill children and choke his wife, Obi-Wan would find it difficult to disagree with Yoda.

    Still we could have seen something like this:

    Despite what even Yoda says, I believe that deep down you are still my brother. Padme believes you are still her husband. Turn back to the light before the darkness consumes you completely! Don't let Palpatine enslave you!"
     
  20. CoolyFett

    CoolyFett Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Feb 3, 2003
    What movie is that from?
     
  21. redlightning

    redlightning Jedi Knight star 4

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    Feb 1, 2014
    The line about Obi-Wan once seeing the good in Vader may simply be that he saw Anakin growing up to be a strong, mature, and heroic Jedi of which he had high hopes after the completing of his training. That is when Kenobi saw the good in his apprentice. Anakin simply no longer sees himself as good anymore.

    When Vader says he must obey his master, I think it's simply the fact he knows that even if he left with Luke, he would never be able to escape the Emperor truly as long as he were alive. The Emperor would simply replace him and track down both Skywalkers, capture them, and put them through a horrendous and unimaginable fate Vader must've seen thousands of times from Palpatine for those who failed or betrayed him. He saw it as a futile to try and escape, because they would never be able to escape. Another thing is perhaps Palpatine could simply Force choke Vader through the Force and kill him like Count Dooku during the Clone Wars. Their virtually was nowhere to hide if he turned on the Emperor. The resources of the Empire were too vast to a cynical Vader to truly escape
     
  22. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    What do you think he's doing when he says "It's over" and "I have the high ground"? What about when he insists that Palpatine is evil? What's the point of all this? Mere grandstanding? Pointless commentary as a prelude to a kill?
     
  23. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    Vader is referring to how Obi-wan once thought that Anakin was still good and that he could be reached. The difference is that Obi-wan took a more forceful approach as mentor to student, not as son to father as Luke did.
     
  24. Darth Mikey

    Darth Mikey Jedi Knight star 3

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    Sep 7, 2015

    And none of which alludes to Kenobi thinking like Luke did, that Vader still had good in him.
     
  25. Arawn_Fenn

    Arawn_Fenn Force Ghost star 7

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    Jul 2, 2004
    It is Kenobi still attempting to reason with him, believing that it was possible he could be talked down. Otherwise there is no point to it. Just as Luke unsuccessfully attempts to appeal to Vader in ROTJ. It is the same thing. And again, there are a number of ways for Vader to have learned information concerning what Obi-Wan may have thought at some point. Fans insist this must mean Obi-Wan told him personally, but this is not necessarily the case.