PT "Obi-Wan Once Thought As You Do ..."

Their ruse wasn't working which is why they had the firefight. Yes, we see them being taken, but then the film forgets that they exist. If they were still there, why doesn't she demand their freedom?

Everyone who was part of the Allaince was killed at Scariff, who didn't make the jump to hyperspace successfully. Hell, we see Vader kill people without trying to capture them.

If Dooku is helpless, then there's no more threat which is precisely what happens. If he wasn't helpless, then the only way to stop him is to kill him. There's no other way for that to go. Why would they die if he doesn't kill Dooku when he's helpless?

Actually, he would because it isn't just about Padme, but about the hypocrisy of the Jedi Code being broken. Mace is going to kill someone who is helpless. Anakin says that it was wrong to have done it. Now Mace, who supposedly follows the Code, is going to break it himself. That's like your parents telling you not to do drugs and then you catch them snorting cocaine.

Lucas did convey that they were running, which we see when Leia cuts the lights and people start running. If they believe that Luke might kill them and know that he's a Jedi, they're not going to hide on the barge and hope he doesn't come looking for them. As to the one guard, not quite certain, but he might have been the same one who came up with the blaster.

Probably easier to ride than not. As to the Banthas, I think that's where they roam wildly. We didn't see them hanging around.

Yet, others can understand what I was saying. Maybe the fault is yours.

It is. It was established that a Jedi shouldn't kill someone who is helpless in ROTS.

I didn't say interchangeable. I said that they're in conjunction with each other. If someone is unarmed and unable to defend themselves, they are helpless. As to Anakin, he says that Dooku was his prisoner and that he shouldn't have killed him. Dooku has no hands and cannot defend himself, making him helpless.

When did I do this?

No, I call you a troll because you don't seem to understand what is being said. First, I never made up a word about unarmed. As I said, it was making a pun. He has no arms, in this case, literally and has no weapon, which means he is unarmed. The fact that you're choosing to argue about proper grammar instead of focusing on the debate, reflects poorly on you. Hence why I asked if you were trolling. And second, if other people can understand what I'm saying, then I am making my point.

I did answer. You're too hung up on grammar to pay attention. I have not shifted attention to avoid answering the question. I cannot help if you cannot understand that there are multiple factors at work with regards to having a helpless opponent and it being wrong. I pointed out multiple examples of people being helpless ranging from those who have lost one limb to those who have lost multiple limbs. I have pointed out that they all are unable to defend themselves and don't use the Force to fight back. If you cannot figure that out, that's on you.

I never said that. I said that when Lucas and Marquand filmed that scene in the first place, they couldn't make some of those puppets and masked aliens run around in the Arizona desert. It wasn't on a high list priority when he did the SE's to add in. Not because there's no such thing as killing someone who is helpless, but because Lucas believes that the narrative was strong enough to show that.

Batman and Daredevil have weapons. Batarangs and Billy Clubs are weapons. I have also said that while Luke, Anakin and Obi-wan were unarmed, they weren't helpless when dealing with the beasts. I have said that when they've lost limbs or been injured in some fashion, they cannot defend themselves and are shown to be helpless.

The Supreme Chancellor's assertion is that Anakin isn't helpless when he's missing limbs, because of reasons. He is also under the impression that Vader could get up and Krav Magra Luke with one hand missing and a Lightsaber blade at his neck. That's where we have been disagreeing.

That's a Sith's point of view. That's what Anakin used to justify all the killing that he did on Tatooine, in the Temple and on Mustafar.

 

Like who? Who can understand your made up fantasy language?

No, it's not.

Anakin blatantly stated that Dooku was unarmed. He said nothing about being helpless or killing the helpless. Killing an unarmed prisoner is a war crime.

Ah yes. You call people who don't understand your made-up words trolls. But I'm the terrible person. Okay.

I gave you an example of people who lost appendages and went on fighting. Mainly Grievous and Vader. I have to remind you here, a hand isn't a limb.

Of course, you speak fro Lucas. What's your relationship with him? Odd that adding special effects for the sarlacc, which adds nothing to the plot, was not on his priority list. Because from what I can see, Luke threatened the death, and ensured the death of the people above the barge.

Luke is a Jedi.

 

Anakin said, “Yes, but he was an unarmed prisoner; I shouldn’t have done that, it’s not the Jedi way.” He never said anything about Dooku being helpless. As far as we’re all concerned, the fight was over — Dooku lost. He was now at Anakin’s complete and utter mercy. He also has two lightsabers crossed at his neck.

As far as your debate with Supreme Chancellor regarding ‘unarmed’, OK, um...I thought it was Supreme Chancellor who made it clear that unarmed didn’t mean helpless. Otherwise, why would he be liking my posts when I make that distinction?

 

I certainly agree with that distinction. The only thing I disagree with is the reasoning. I can disagree with someone and also "like" their post because I appreciate their insight and contribution to furthering our understanding of the content. In this case however darth-sinister is being purposely difficult and obtuse.

 

Nope, the firefight was always planned.
Did you think they could just take Leia out of her cell and leave without any fuss?
That makes no sense.
No, they used the ruse to get inside the cellblock and catch the guards by surprise.
And the ruse is totally stupid and would not work for a second if there were NO other prisoners on the DS.
Also, how Jedi is that, pretend to be a friend to get a person to lower their guard so you can blast him when he isn't expecting it?

As for Leia making demands, when could she do that??
She was never in a position to make any kind of demands nor does the film establish that she knows they have been taken captive.
The film does establish that they are taken captive and does NOT establish that they have been killed, ergo they are still alive.

We don't see every part of admiral Raddus's ship nor do we see him get killed.
They do say that the ship has been disabled so it can't leave. And Vader comes over with a boarding party.
Vader is chasing after the tapes and kills the ones in the way. He isn't killing just to amuse himself.
He has a goal, get the tapes, the rebel base is less important right now.
So there would likely be prisoners after Scariff.

Well say that the top of the tower is blown away from the ship but is still intact.
So they are alive but will run out of oxygen. They have enough for three people but not four.
So if they leave Dooku alive, they all asphyxiate.
Would it be wrong to kill him then?

No he wouldn't. Anakin wipes his behind with the jedi code. He has married despite him knowing that this is against the code. He murdered children and knew that was not the jedi way and yet he didn't inform Obi-Wan or any Jedi about it.
Anakin is in Palpatine's office because he needs Palpatine's knowledge to save Padme, end of story.
If not, he would not have gone over there.
Mace said he was going to arrest him and Anakin heard Mace try to do just that. Then Palpatine resisted arrest and tried to kill Mace.
Anakin is using the jedi code as a rationalization, an excuse to get Mace not to kill Palpatine.
Not because it would be wrong but because Anakin is desperate for any way to save Padme.
"I need him" is what Anakin says and this is what it is all about, his needs. The code matters not.

They were running around like headless chickens when the light went out.
Which is not all that uncommon, people can panic if it suddenly gets dark.
if Lucas wanted to convey that they left the barge, that would have been very easy, two lines of dialogue would have sufficed.
He didn't, ergo he wasn't interested in conveying that.

As for the guard, two guards run down into the ship and both look to have different clothing than the guard that shot Luke.
So at least one person runs away from the fight and yet Luke blows up the barge. Never checking to see if all non-combatants have left not asking Leia about it.

In his mind, they were all guilty. They worked for Jabba and deserved death.
And Lucas does try to justify this.
Jabba himself is vile but his crew is also cruel and mean.
They look on with glee when a woman is eaten alive by a monster.
They even laugh when one of their own, a comrade, is eaten.
So Lucas makes the point that they are all scum and not deserving of any mercy, hence why Luke kills all of them at the end.

Bottomline, Luke has NO problems with killing non-combatants.
And he becomes a Jedi at the end.
So the OT films don't really support your interpretation of the Jedi code.

[/QUOTE]

A wild elephant is not that easy to ride.
If they are wild and not ones domesticated by the sandpeople.
Banthas are still animals and would need water and it would also make sense to stay out of the sun.
So this bit of desert is not the ideal place for them to roam wildly.

Bye.
Blackboard Monitor

 

Pacified_Ilama, for one.

Yes, it is.

Where is it established that it is a war crime in "Star Wars"? We know that Dooku is helpless since he does nothing to defend himself.

No, I call people trolls who don't seem to understand what is being said, which is quite clear and try to be funny by saying, "Diddy did it" and other such nonsense.

Vader stops fighting when he hand is cut off. Picking up Palpatine isn't fighting.

I do not speak for Lucas. And Luke never threatened death to anyone but Jabba. And as I pointed out, we see the people running when the lights go out. They're running to escape. As to Lucas and what he does and doesn't add, he added things that he thought would look cool or he felt was important to convey. He didn't think it was important to convey that the rest of Jabba's people were running to get away from a maniac with a Lightsaber.

"They deserved what they got" is Sith thinking. Not a Jedi thought process. Saying, "They deserve what they get" is endorsing revenge and revenge is not the Jedi way.

And he is unable to defend himself. Making him a helpless person.

Because he doesn't understand that if you are unarmed and are incapable of defending yourself, you are helpless. Luke was capable of defending himself against the Rancor, but not against Vader when he lost his hand. Anakin was capable of defending himself against the Reek, but not against Obi-wan if he decided to finish him off on Mustafar, after cutting his hand and legs off. Obi-wan was stabbed in the leg and the arm and was incapable of stopping Dooku from killing him, which is why Anakin had to save him and then Yoda afterwards.

They don't know if there are other prisoners or not. They could easily bluff their way out without a fight.

Luke isn't a Jedi, otherwise he would have used a mind trick. He doesn't know all that being a Jedi entails.

I was talking about Leia telling Luke and Han that they should try to free the prisoners.

I never said that he was amusing himself. He was killing without taking prisoners. He only does so later.

Yes. In that case, Obi-wan would sacrifice himself on his own, without forcing anyone to kill him. The Jedi way would be to do that as it would be selfish to kill Dooku to preserve their own lives, but sacrificing themselves wouldn't be.

The Code does matter because it shows to him that Palpatine is right. The Jedi will abandon the Code when it suits them, which the Sith would do. That's why he justifies his actions.

Or he believed that was enough for people to figure out.

That's what Anakin said when he killed the Tusken Raiders. You really want to go with that.

ANAKIN: "They're animals and I slaughtered them like animals".

We don't know how easy or difficult Banthas are. And yes, that is where Banthas roam wild. As to water, we don't know how often they need water.

 

You speak a secret language that one other person understands, and you're confused that others prefer plain english?

Doing nothing to defend yourself doesn't mean you're helpless. The word you are looking for, in english; is pacifism.

I can feel your anger. It makes you stronger; gives you focus.

Of course, killing someone in the midst of a battle isn't fighting. Tell that to Merriam-Webster.

I thought you didn't speak for Lucas? The combatants run downstairs into the barge, that's the last we see of them. Then seconds later, the barge explodes.

Luke never said that. He's a Jedi.

 

There is no secret language.

No, if Vader was a pacifist, he wouldn't have fought at all. Once again, having a Lightsaber blade at your neck is not pacifism. He was helpless.



Helpless.



Pacifism.

Know the difference.

What battle? Palpatine electrocuting Luke is not a battle, nor is Vader picking Palpatine up and tossing him down a reactor shaft is a battle. You know what is a battle, when two people are fighting with laser swords.

One person runs downstairs. Everyone else who was in there, who wasn't fighting, were already running away before Luke even boarded Khetenna.

I never said that he said that. You said it. Were you speaking for yourself or speaking for Luke?

 

Coming from a man who doesn't know the difference between unarmed and helpless, the irony is delicious.

So once again you were commenting on something you apparently have no knowledge of.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Endor

No I didn't. You said:

Who are you quoting with those quotations? Luke never said that.

 

You want to play that game?

1. Helpless: unable to defend oneself or to act without help.

2. Unarmed: not equipped with or carrying weapons.

Put them together and what do you have?

Way to move goalposts, yet again. I'm talking about Luke and Vader, not the space battle. The battle between Luke and Vader is over when Vader is at Luke's mercy.

I'm quoting you. I never said that Luke said that.

You are of the belief that Jabba's men got what they deserved and Luke was ruthless. I pointed out that to say that, is to ignore that the Jedi are not ruthless. That Luke was doing all of this was right, but as I pointed out, that that kind of thinking is not Jedi thinking, but Sith thinking. Luke wasn't being ruthless. He was being like Obi-wan and Qui-gon, negotiating as much as possible and fighting as a last resort. He didn't do it to be ruthless. He just rescued his friend and defended himself against attacks.

 

I thought there was no battle?

I never said that. You didn't use the quote function, you just made up a sentence and said I said it.

..and as a grim finale destroyed a barge that could have easily had people on it; people who had run away from him.

An unarmed super human cyborg who is unarmed. But is defending himself by pleading with his opponent. Bang.

 

R2 was able to hack into the imperial network and that is how they were able to know where to go and presumably where Luke go the number for that other cellblock. So they would not have any problem finding out if there were other prisoners or not.
And since they go with this plan and that the guards in Leia's block don't go "What prisoner transfer, there are no other prisoners on this station." This makes other prisoners the most likely option.
Easily bluff their way out with a very important prisoner that is to be executed without any confirmation at all?
If they think that then they are morons.

Really?
She should make those demands while they are in the middle of a firefight?
And this of course assumes that she knows that there are other prisoners, that those prisoners are in the same cellblock as her or if they are elsewhere, she knows where they are.
And on top of that, she would risk the capture of the R2 unit with the very important plans for the DS by running around and trying to free other prisoners.
Sorry, this is not only not supported by the film, it is also makes no sense.

To sum up, the film strongly implies other prisoners being there so your alternative is not plausible.

And I said he is after the tapes, those are the priority. He knows that there are other rebels in the ship so he does not need to hold back when going after the tapes. And even if he somehow thinks that these are the last rebels alive, which makes no sense, getting the stolen plans is more important than taking prisoners.

Nope it matters not at all, Anakin is just lying to himself and trying to make himself feel better with what he is doing.
And he knows that Mace was right, Palpatine was not helpless, he was playing weak and could have kept attacking Mace. And most likely would have if Mace had lowered his guard in order to arrest him.
Anakin is motivated by one thing and one thing only, Padme. The rest does not matter one bit.

[/QUOTE]

Nope, he intended for the audience to cheer when Jabba and his crew all die.

Lucas made the choice to make Jabba and his crew vile and disgusting in every way. Cruel and delighting in torment and death.
And Luke ends them all by blowing up the barge. The battle is pretty much over, they have won, the few guards that remained on top fled down into the ship.
And yet Luke blows it up, killing them.
Why?
There was not much in the way of danger left. Those that were left of Jabba's crew didn't want to fight Luke as they were too scared of him. So Luke kills them, despite them not being a threat, running and hiding from him. Luke makes no effort to see if any non-combatants are still on-board so they don't matter to him.

So the message Lucas is sending is that Jabba is vile and so is his crew and Luke can kill them without any remorse and the audience is meant to cheer over this.

The Tusken thing is a bit different as there Anakin mentions women and children and Lucas makes a point of using human terms and not "females" and "young ones". Jabba's crew are all adults.
Killing women and even more so, children is most often seen a big no no.
So the film does establish that Anakin killed innocents.

So to me, the films does make a bit of a difference between Luke and Anakin.

Bye
Blackboard Monitor

 

I never said that there was no battle. I said, Vader stops fighting when he hand is cut off. Picking up Palpatine isn't fighting.

I never said anything about a battle. You, on the other hand responded with this...

To which I said, What battle? Palpatine electrocuting Luke is not a battle, nor is Vader picking Palpatine up and tossing him down a reactor shaft is a battle. You know what is a battle, when two people are fighting with laser swords.

At which point you shifted goalposts. You need to pay attention.

No, sir. I did not. I quoted you.

You said that, page 12, post #300.

http://boards.theforce.net/threads/obi-wan-once-thought-as-you-do.50033973/page-12#post-54606270

Want to keep lying some more, or do you want to clarify what you said?

And can easily have gotten off of the barge. There's more than one way on and off it. Plenty of time to get off.

The problem with that is Vader says nothing at all when he's lying there. Also, pleading is only a defense if you are pleading innocence in a court of law regarding a crime that you are accused of. That's not the same as defending against a killing blow, especially when Vader says nothing. The only time Vader spoke was when he threatened Leia and in the 2011 Blu-Ray, says "No" and "Nooooo!"

It's not mentioned either way. Artoo just happens to find Leia is there and that was only because there was a notice that she was to be executed soon.

These are the same guys that didn't have a plan for getting out, so....

Considering everything else she says during the firefight, yes.

She can ask.

They're already risking Artoo and the plans by being there. Five minutes to open up the cells wouldn't hurt.

There's nothing to imply that there are still prisoners.

It is if he wants to find out where they are.

Anakin doesn't believe that Palpatine was faking. He genuinely believes that he's too weak to defend himself. That's the whole point, which was to trick Anakin into thinking that he needed to save Palpatine because he was growing weak.

The Jedi Master is winning when Anakin arrives, but Palpatine, as the scene has been rethought, now seizes the occasion to exaggerate his weakness.

--The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; Page 204.

"(Palpatine is now laying down) But this part where he pretends to lose his power and become weak is something that I added later. Cause this moved the point where Anakin turned to this moment right here."

--George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.

"Mace was going to do the right thing by arresting him, but after Palpatine does the lightning, he changes his mind."

--George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 204.

Again, nowhere does the film state that they were or were not onboard. However, given that there is more than one hatch on the ship and there was plenty of time to get off of it, then the reasonable choice is that they lived.

The Tuskens are just as vile for torturing a woman for a month and possibly did worse things than that. And there were females in Jabba's palace. And are you really saying that aliens can't be female or children? Really? We don't even know if Tuskens are human or humanoid.

 

"humanoid" means "upright posture" "grasping hands" "tool-making" etc. It's fair to say that they are humanoid in shape and intelligence, even if we can't see under their clothing.

And Luke didn't blow up Jabba's palace.

 

Thrawn isn't exactly human, but is humanoid and still an alien. And there were females aboard Jabba's barge besides Leia.

 

Uh...huh? Where is this thread going? What's happening?

 

Armed ones, not noncombatant slaves - a point is made in the first newcanon junior novelization that "even the Max Rebo band are armed and dangerous, especially Sy Snootles" - and that Luke suspects that there may be more thugs ready to come on deck at any moment and attack them.

So, in that sense, blowing up the sail barge is not vindictiveness - but an attempt to ensure that when they flee in the skiff, the Sail Barge crew don't regroup, and set off in pursuit.

 

You questioned whether or not the Battle of Endor was a battle, so was it a battle or not?

So you're calling me a Sith? What does that have to do with Luke killing Jabbas gang?

Easily? Dozens of feet down into a barren wasteland? Plenty of time? You mean like 20 seconds?

He is lying down with his hand in a defensive posture, signalling surrender; a type of self-preservation. The sort of self-preservation that a helpless person, such as an infant or an unconscious person, would be unable to do.

 

Back to the OT for a minute. Couldn't help but think that maybe that apparently missing dialogue, reflected by Vader on Endor in ROJ, could have been spoken (unheard) during their ANH duel aboard the Death Star:

VADER When I left you, I was but the
learner; now I am the master.

BEN Only a master of evil, Darth.

VADER Your powers are weak, old man.

BEN You can't win, Darth. If you strike
me down, I shall become more powerful
than you can possibly imagine.

(insert dialogue compatible with Vader's memory in ROJ)

My reason for considering this possibilty is Kenobi's first reply "only a master of evil". What's the point? It's so obvious that Kenobi might have as well have saved himself some breath and strength, unless...

 

I did no such thing and you know that.

No, I quoted you because you are either speaking on behalf of Luke with your statements, or you are just speaking your mind. Either way, vindictiveness is not the way of the Jedi.

You exaggerate. There was more than twenty seconds between when the power is cut to when Luke triggers the cannon. More than enough time to get off the barge. And there the Banthas, which can get them to a nearby settlement.

Still not a defense. And yes, a helpless person can be a grown adult and totally conscious. I don't know why this is difficult a concept to understand. If someone has me in that same position, I would be helpless. You would be helpless. If there is no way to prevent a killing blow, then you are helpless to stop it.

 

pg. 13, post #308

The internet is a crazy thing eh? What you do is recorded, forever. And no matter how much you lie, it's still there.

I speak for SW characters? Sir, unlike you I do not presume to speak for anyone, including fictional characters. I don't know that I would call Luke blowing up Jabba's barge vindictive; it's in the eye of the beholder I guess.

No, I counted. It's about 20 seconds between us seeing the last combatant flee and Luke blowing up the barge.

Your retort is that any burned, deformed survivors can use slow-as-slime banthas to hopefully trek in a random direction to a source of water? That's...a...positive outlook.

Talking your way out is a good option. And if that fails...you'll have to pull out the big guns...including.....


THE FORBIDDEN ART OF DODGING!!!

 

<Insert ‘Team Four Star!Piccolo’ DOOOOOODDDGGEEEE meme here>

At any rate, yeah, pretty sure Vader was helpless when he was lying on the ground with a single hand up at Luke. It’s a clear-cut way of saying, “Please, don’t kill me. I’m unarmed, I’m beaten. Have mercy.”

As for the barge, well this is the same guy who blew up a Death Star also presumably filled with innocent mechanists and janitors whose sole jobs was to keep the physical equipment in peak running condition. He’s not thinking like a Jedi, he’s thinking like a Rebel soldier...which is what you’d expect since he’s been in the gig for three-four years by this point. If you want to blame anyone, blame the Empire/Jabba respectively, not Luke.

 

It's not a question of blaming Luke. It's about the supposedly clearly lines between what's permissible or otherwise for a Jedi and how they are the path to the darkside etc Anakin wanting to assist the troopers being wasted as they attack the Separatists in ROTS means he's greedily headed for the darkside. Luke annihilating Jabba's entire entourage and but refusing to kill Vader because he's his father (not because he realises it's not the Jedi way) means he's a Jedi.

 

Helpless, but taking measures to preserve himself?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/helpless

 

Goodness, how did we get back to helplessness?

This is such an excellent example of how the lines of discussion can become over-complicated because arguments weren't laid out fully to begin with.
Either that, or it's called nitpicking.

For what it's worth, though, if we're going to bring up helplessness again - let's apply common sense.
It is not reasonable to say that anyone is "not helpless" because they are merely trying to do something or commit to some action. There needs to be some notion of success.

If I drop to the ground, I have one arm, and no weapon - it is reasonable to call me helpless. I might try to reach out in supplication but there aren't any reasonable grounds that it will result in my moving from a helpless to defensible state. And note very carefully that if I reach out to my enemy to beg for mercy, that act is dependent on my enemy's whim, and not on my own ability - so I cannot act without help from others -> helpless.

Now, you can construct all sorts of very specific, detailed exceptions to this, but in general, I'd say it's a good basis for what is helpless, and what isn't.


Separately, the killing of Jabba and company has only very minor correlations to Mace's scene vs. Palpatine in ROTS.
Jabba was pugnacious and had illegally captured, tortured, imprisoned and sentenced to execution many of Luke's friends. Palpatine never openly attacked the Jedi or illegally moved against them before Mace's scene. The Jedi attacked him and he responded with deadly force, revealing himself as Sith only after their preemptive strike. There is no concept of a preemptive strike in the OT - the Empire is always characterized as oppressive and the rebels react to that.