PT "Obi-Wan Once Thought As You Do ..."

It's a reference to Quinlan Vos, of course. Just read Dark Disciple.

 

There is a scene in RotS where Obi-Wan confronts Padme to discuss Anakin.
"Padme. I need your help. He is in grave danger."
Padme: "From the Sith?"
Obi-Wan: "From himself."
Later he says "He was deceived by a lie. We all were."
When Padme asks if he is going to kill Anakin, Obi-Wan says "He has become a very great threat."
Based on these lines and the actors performances and body language in this scene, I feel that Obi-Wan has NOT decided to kill Anakin at this point. He is full of grief over Anakin's horrific actions and there is little hope left for him, but there is a small chance of reasoning with Anakin.
Several other members have mentioned the dialogue between the two Jedi brothers on Mustafar which, for me, further suggests that Obi-Wan had hope that Anakin could be redeemed, however unlikely.
That is a possible explanation as to why Vader says, "Obi-Wan once thought as you do."

 

This...
A couple of moments before the video starts, Padme tells Anakin that Obi-wan cares about them, and wants to help him.

 

I don't buy that for a second, seeing at the end of this entire scene - Padme states that Obi-wan is gonna kill Anakin. Something that Obi-wan doesn't bother denying.

His actions and words throughout all the films doesn't make it seem like Anakin can be redeemed unlike Luke and Padme who believe otherwise.

 

It's one of those things from the backstory that turned out to be different when Lucas was actually fleshing out the movies. I think the roles of believer was given to Padme here.

 

Obi-Wan maybe doesn't "deny" it because he doesn't want to make a promise he may not be able to keep - so he keeps his options open.

 

Since when? Seeing as Obi-wan doesn't once during his battle with Anakin, try to make the other to change his mind or at least reason with Anakin.

As far as I am concerned ever since Obi-wan learned about Anakins turn to the dark side after the Jedi temple massacre scene, he made up his mind to kill Anakin - he never once thought that Anakin could be redeemed. Which is further backed up by what he says in the OT.

 

I thought this was a missed opportunity in ROTS (once again Lucas changing the course of his series). I really wanted to see Obi-Wan try to convince Anakin to turn back. To attempt to save him. But, this was lost sadly. It would have made the battle more emotional and set up the climax better.

 

Since - well, maybe the options were open until he saw Vader strangling Padme, or until Vader stated if you weren't with him, you were against him...tons of places where Obi-Wan could have finally decided, okay, I have no choice.

 

An interesting idea I once saw tossed up was someone saying a good line in place of that would be "Your mother once thought as you do."

Admittedly, it does seem a tad odd. Even if JEJ were to record that line and have it inserted, it's unlikely there are any alternate camera angles or something that would show Mark acting surprised, and leaving it hanging there would be awkward. Still, I feel it applies more than comparing him to Obi-Wan

 

The movie doesn't support your opinion at all. Since Obi-wan made no attempt to at least reason with Anakin or to try to change his mind before their duel started.

He makes no attempt during the duel itself either to try to change Anakin's mind. So how can you possibly say that Obi-wan kept his options open when the films do not indicate that at all?

 

Aside from the fact that when Obi-Wan's arguing with Anakin during their duel he's obviously doing it to get through to his student and find that good in him, I think that in life people remember the past through a fog. This line in Jedi doesn't have to relate specifically to one instance on Mustafar where Obi-Wan tried to turn Vader back to the good side. Vader probably looks back at his entire life as a Jedi, sees how helpless he was and how powerful he's become and thinks of Obi-Wan's entire training as akin to what Luke is attempting to do.

It's not binary. The characters in these movies don't necessarily remember the scenes and events the way we do, because we can always go back and re-watch - they can't, and so they come up with their own versions of events and other people's motivations based on their own point of view, which for Vader is quite a twisted one.

 

Really?

Obi-wan lines on Mustafar like stating "I will do what I must" or that saying that Palpatine is an evil man doesn't seem to me that he is trying to convince Anakin to change his mind.

 

I think everyone is over-thinking this. Keep in mind that Palpatine wants to turn Luke to the Dark Side. I think is simply a case of Vader trying to sway Luke. Vader knows the reverence Luke has for Obi-Wan, and is trying to use that in an attempt to show how futile it is to resist the Dark Side. Basically, Obi-Wan once "felt the good in Vader", and it cost him his life. It will cost Luke his life, unless he turns to the Dark Side.

 

Everyone is free to believe what they will. I think Obi-Wan was pretty much resigned to having to "take care of" Anakin when he visited Padme, but hoped circumstances would work out so that he wouldn't. He wouldn't make a promise he couldn't keep.

As to trying to reason with him on Mustafar - well, as has been proven in this thread and others - no one sees it the same.

 

Actually, he does.

OBI-WAN: "I have failed you, Anakin. I have failed you."

ANAKIN: "I should have known the Jedi were plotting to take over."

OBI-WAN: "Anakin, Chancellor Palpatine is evil!"

ANAKIN: "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil."

OBI-WAN: "Then you are lost!"

He tries to make Anakin see that Palpatine is evil, but he is so far gone, that Obi-wan gives up. Obi-wan just doesn't say what Luke says.

 

This is the great thing about Star Wars that creates so many conversations because Lucas doesn't and can't possibly give you every single thing each character thought in their heads so it's open to interpretation.

We see in ROTS that Obi-Wan doesn't want to kill Anakin and then we see him confront Anakin. As far as Vader is concerned at least the way he remembers it he says Obi-Wan once thought as you did.

So is that the way he sees it? Is he shifting and combining Obi-Wan's talk and Padme's plea together?

This is the delicious part because I like that there is no way he is going to start talking about Padme to Luke so instead he shifts that to Obi-Wan instead.

He also keeps saying Obi-Wan taught him well. What does he think Obi-Wan did with Luke? By TESB Luke is about 22 and it's been several years since ANH and Obi-Wan being gone. Yet he still thinks of Obi-Wan.

He's quite obsessed with Obi-Wan.

I would also point out that we have two men who are like brothers as well as being Jedi. The connection between them is so strong in so many ways that things don't simply have to be said.

Obviously Vader said that Obi-Wan thought that way and his instincts are based on meeting him on Mustafar which as far as we know is the last time they met before ANH.

 

Exactly.

Moreover, the ROTJ line suggests that Anakin later believed that Padme had been reasoned with, by Obi-Wan, to get Anakin to see sense.

So he's actually expressing some regret, years later, at the fact that he choked his loving wife after accusing her of bringing Obi-Wan to kill him.

Powerful stuff. For those willing to look at the line that way.

 

Indeed. Great observation, especially about Anakin/Vader's continuing obsession with Obi-Wan. After all, what does he say while engaged in a duel to the death with his son at the behest of his (slave-)master, and after just learning that he also has a daughter by the woman he loved?

"Obi-Wan was wise to hide her from me. Now his failure is complete."

 

Another reading is that Vader is still evil though conflicted and is simply trying to get into Luke's head. He doesn't really want to confront being Anakin with Luke as the name has no meaning to him and to throw Luke off he refers to Obi-Wan as thinking the same way Luke does and that it didn't work then and it won't work now.

Now in the script Obi-Wan says this:

LUKE There's still good in him.

BEN I also thought he could be turned back to the good side. It couldn't be done. He is more machine now than man. Twisted and evil.

But that was cut from the movie.

 

Well, as you yourself said, and to echo that very scene, it really comes down to points of view.

Personally, I think Vader/Anakin sounds truly regretful in that moment, and isn't just doing it to throw Luke.

Although, like you say, he's conflicted, so perhaps a part of him is thinking along those lines.

It's the same sort of catch in his voice, to me, when he says, "If that is your destiny." Or "It is too late for me, son." He can't entirely hide his vulnerability. He rendered it apparent to Luke, perhaps unconsciously, when he came out with the "father" revelation. Back then, he might have been trying to frighten Luke, enough to get him up to "buying temperature", but it opened a door; and now the light is flooding out...

Interestingly, Obi-Wan's rebuke at the end is phrased the same way as Luke's in ROTJ:

"Then my father is truly dead."

Which definitely gets him thinking in those last few seconds after Luke is escorted away.

 

Interesting....

 

I always thought, in light of the Prequels, that Vader's line was him half-wishing/half-hoping that Obi-Wan DID want him to turn back. Remember, it had been 24 years since that fight, so the exact details are foggy. He won't remember exactly what went down unlike us because he can't go back and re-watch it.

Seriously, think back 24 years. Can you remember what happened then, exactly as it happened, word-for-word with picture-perfect clarity? Most likely not. Now add Vader's emotional turmoil and...

I'm not even surprised if he fooled himself into subconsciously re-writing that memory to where Obi-Wan did beg Vader to turn back during their big fight.

 

The real reason for all the inconsistencies, is because Lucas either didn't think he would do prequel movies or he didn't have every single detail of the back story thought out. StarWars tries to give reasons for the inconsistencies with movies, books, comics and cartoons. Even with minor inconsistencies, I love StarWars and will forever be a fan.

 

We know Obi-Wan is reluctant to kill Anakin from his initial conversation with Yoda. He literally says he "will not" do it. And he does try to reason with Anakin at multiple points. It's true that Obi-Wan never comes right out and pleads directly with Anakin to return to the good side by appealing to his love for him. That role was given to Padme, and having Obi-Wan take the same approach might have come across as a bit of a redundancy. It would also diminish the emotional impact of his final words to Anakin on the lava bank, in which he finally, tragically, feels free to let Anakin know how much he truly cared about him. But through his actions Obi-Wan does clearly evince a belief that there's a possibility the old Anakin is still there, despite what Yoda has told him.

I think the reason Vader brings up Obi-Wan in that moment in ROTJ rather than Padme is because he doesn't like to think about Padme. It would also be an oddly intimate direction in which to take the conversation, given the context of Vader's rhetorical intentions.

If there's any incongruity at all, it's a very minor one.